[identity profile] treble the cat posting in [community profile] artists_beware
WHO: Nayel-ie/Nayel/NayelFox/Nayelie Fox

WHERE:

https://www.instagram.com/nayelie_art/
http://www.furaffinity.net/nayelfox (defunct)
https://www.facebook.com/Nayeliefox

WHAT: Digital artwork, fully shaded.

Transaction was done in a single part, I traded $130 worth of Manga, all of it discontinued and rare TokyoPop manga for the commission.

WHEN: Initial Comission agreement/Payment Early May 2015 with repeatededly ignored/late replied ETA requests from June 1 2015 to 5th of January 2016

April 30th 2015: The initial commission agreement was set
May 3rd 2015: Payment was delivered in full to Nayel-IE in person

June 1st 2015: I asked for an update and received no reply
June 15th 2015: I followed up to this update request, no reply
July 8th 2015: I followed up AGAIN and finally received a reply stating “Oh wow I didn’t get your earlier messages (she had “seen” them) I was given an ETA of “hopefully the next month” after an explanation she’s working through a 1.5 year backlog and just getting back into artwork after a hiatus.

November 24th 2015: I asked for an update, No reply
January 5th 2016: Asked for an update, No reply
January 8th 2016: I asked for an update and stated if no communication was made and received the same story a year backlog and “just getting back into art.” She also explained away the issue as “This isn’t a true commission because you didn’t pay me money.” I’ve been told from artists friends this is still a commission. It is a commission because she’s received payment from me, simple. I think it’s telling of an unprofessional attitude when she dismisses me because of this.

It is now February 8th, 2016, exactly a month after the last conversation and I have yet to receive even a simply sketch. All the while Nayel-IE has been posting personal art projects, cosplay, and talking about how she’s going to conventions to party it up.

PROOF:
Original Contract: http://imgur.com/a/Gk96M
First ETA Request: http://imgur.com/a/GhnJs
Final ETA Request: http://imgur.com/a/6rVJj
Various proof of artwork and other projects being done: http://imgur.com/a/5KO0r

EXPLAIN:

The biggest fault on my side is not getting a signed contract done up when the bartering exchange occurred, however the conversation over Facebook messenger qualifies as a contract in the area I reside in. For everything else I’ve outlined in the proof section.

Exacerbating all of this is the fact that this exchange occurred as I was in the middle of a move. I moved from the central-east coast to the west coast of North America. So a refund is virtually impossible as it would require Nayel-IE to ship product back across the country and I am doubtful she would give me the monetary value.

All in all it feels like I’ve been taken advantage of because I’m now halfway across the country.

As it stands right now, all I really care about is getting the artwork as I planned on using it in promotional material and etc for my brand. I’ve given her almost a year to give me something, I’ve been very patient and understanding but sadly she’s given me nothing in return for this, so I am now posting to this site on the advice of some of my other artist friends who are aware of the situation as it is my last resort (outside of legal actions).

UPDATES:

So I was alerted to the fact that Nayel-IE is now accepting comissions again and decided to message her again. This time giving her the option to do the work, refund me, or to see me in small claims court (whenever I'd be able to make the trip back to the east..). She replied dismissively stating she wasn't accepting comissions but comission forms... whatever that means, and requesting refs again. Not sure if she lost them or what. During our conversation it seems she found this artists beware page and has subsequently blocked me from our original means of communication, directing me to email only now. I have emailed her the refs as she directed, however have not received a reply as to if she's received them or any further updates.

This conversation can be found in the screenshots here: http://imgur.com/a/JbCuy

Date: 2016-02-20 11:10 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yuki-fox-demon.livejournal.com
Oh, wow, her entire attitude is extremely unprofessional in that last message. Did she not give you her ToS to read when you commissioned her? Because the "I only work on them on my personal time when I feel like it" would have been a huge red flag for me. I'm also surprised she didn't mention to you that she's been on a hiatus/has a huge back log...that also probably would have turned me off commissioning her.

Date: 2016-02-21 01:29 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lostlatios.livejournal.com
This is her working FurAffinity page http://www.furaffinity.net/user/nayel-ie

This artist comes across as very egocentric and self serving.
Accepting something as payment and then blowing it off without even the decency to contact you. That's rubbish.
Putting something as less of a priority because the payment wasn't money is just inappropriate. It's not like they were doing this out if the kindness of their own heart they did receive something and this is how they decided to treat the exchange. Absolutely pathetic.
(deleted comment)

Date: 2016-03-21 11:47 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] celestinaketzia.livejournal.com
Howdy, before you continue to make numerous comments with the same post, please be aware one is enough. All moderators are emailed every comment, and as you can understand more than one of the same exact comment can get excessive fast.

Edit:
Also, please be aware of our rules (Rule 5). Whether or not something should be here is irrelevant as this community is moderated.
Edited Date: 2016-03-21 11:49 pm (UTC)

Date: 2016-02-21 10:10 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] leahtaur.livejournal.com
Yikes, that's a horrible way to treat a paying customer (and yes, you're right, the trade of manga for art absolutely makes you a paying customer.)

From what is present here I do consider her to be in the wrong. The only thing that made me pause is that this art was going to be for promotional material for your brand - do you mean that it was going to be printed as promo material and then sold, like t-shirts or prints? Or just that it was going to be used as a picture of your character to be posted in your gallery? I only bring it up because commercial uses like the former should have been discussed far more than is shown in the screencap. Usually commercial uses have a very different price than personal use like most customers on FA use art for. If this does not apply in this instance, ignore me.

Date: 2016-02-21 11:13 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] scottalottosay.livejournal.com
Just her Terms of Service alone makes me want to avoid her. She outright states she doesn't do refunds, unless she's made no progress (but still), and no refunds at all for YCHs and Iron Artists.

"There are no refunds, Unless I have no progress on your piece. If there is an issue, A WIP can be provided."
"YCH’s (Presketched pieces) and Iron Artists pieces are not subject to refund."

The Terms of Service also claims that her usual turnaround time is a few weeks, and up to 3 months on bigger pieces, which really confuses me since she told you that she has over a year of backlog, and your commission still hasn't been completed after about 9 months.

https://nayeliefox.wordpress.com/2015/07/14/terms-of-service/
http://archive.is/ete4t
http://imgur.com/a/O4bsy
http://imgur.com/a/GhnJs
http://imgur.com/a/6rVJj

Also, here are all of her accounts that I know of:
https://www.facebook.com/Nayeliefox
https://www.instagram.com/nayelie_art/
https://twitter.com/Nayeliefox
http://www.furaffinity.net/user/nayel-ie/
http://www.furaffinity.net/nayelfox
https://www.weasyl.com/~nayelie
http://nayel-ie.tumblr.com/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCgsvKshZU8foa1FLyJj6Uaw?&ab_channel=Nayel-ie
https://nayeliefox.wordpress.com/
https://nayelie.wordpress.com/
Edited Date: 2016-02-21 11:15 am (UTC)

Date: 2016-02-21 11:46 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] epiceternity.livejournal.com
I still haven't received her half of a trade from 2014 that she not only initiated but insisted I do my half first on. Last time we spoke about it, I had been waiting so long that she had increased her prices and expected me to do more to match her new prices!

(Tbh I'm not fussed about perusing it as I don't have any real interest in her art. She just contact me at a moment I was in the mood to quick trade and I thought it would be a nice thing to do.)

So yeah, I'd also put out the warning that if you do trade with her, get your half from her first as she's totally unreliable.

Date: 2016-02-22 12:38 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] devildove.livejournal.com
That is one of the most backwards things I've read on here! She takes forever to finish your piece, and then expects you to do extra art for her to compensate her for waiting that was caused by her disrespect of the concept of art trades in the first place? Honestly, that's an abusive and self-serving sort of logic and beware-worthy in and of itself in my opinion.

Date: 2016-02-22 02:03 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] epiceternity.livejournal.com
It came about because she had forgotten about the trade (that she initiated!) and what she said she would draw so tried to match the value of my half to her new prices which she had raised a far chunk in the 6+ months I had been waiting.
From that it's very clear she does not have a system in place for keeping track of things she owes.

Date: 2016-02-21 12:17 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] enn shaw (from livejournal.com)
:/ I hate that gross egomaniac attitude. I'm sorry you're going through this.

Date: 2016-02-23 03:30 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] intj-reflection.livejournal.com
Wow. Beware well warranted. Hopefully it prods some of the others obviously dealing with the dubious legality of her TOS and to whom she owes backdated art to post as well. I'm seeing at least one person with a 2yr wait requesting a status update in her journals.

Date: 2016-02-23 06:05 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] andrew aw chun hong (from livejournal.com)
This is how like, once the artist got the money, instant refuse to do anything for their commissioners. I have this problem before from other artists too.
Edited Date: 2016-02-23 06:10 am (UTC)

(frozen)

Date: 2016-02-23 01:02 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lostlatios.livejournal.com
[livejournal.com profile] intj_reflection makes a good point and I think it's important to show so here's a screencap.

Image (http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/lostlatios/73526214/84456/84456_original.jpg)

Her attitude towards this person who has waited 2 YEARS is abhorrent. You'll do your "absolute best"? I damn well hope so. And I'm not sure what this "merging" she did was but who cares? I'm not even sure if that's supposed to be an excuse or what.

(frozen)

Date: 2016-03-21 11:50 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nayeliefox.livejournal.com
This commission was completed immediately upon returning from my hiatus and upgraded for free. An additional $100 upgrade for a full scene picture as my gift to the customer for being patient and understanding with me.
The customer would also pop in from time to time when I was streaming and I would provide updates upon asked.
Want to stress that that was one of my oldest standing commissions and -once again- was completed immediately upon my return, with way more value, effort and time put into it than they intitally payed for.

(frozen)

Date: 2016-03-22 02:23 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lostlatios.livejournal.com
Your "$100 upgrade gift" is arbitrary. You decided that worth.
From the thread there this customer seemed to be mostly in the dark not knowing when they would receive the service they payed for. Sugar coating your unprofessional behaviour with bribery doesn't change the fact that you took 2 years to resolve this business transaction.

(frozen)

Date: 2016-03-22 06:25 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nayeliefox.livejournal.com
The was no bribe and I didnt even notify them of the upgrade. I did it in my own time out of my own heart.

(frozen) mod comment

Date: 2016-03-22 06:29 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] celestinaketzia.livejournal.com
I'm going to freeze this here. If the person in the screencap has taken issue with the way the transaction has occurred they are welcome to speak for themselves. We have no idea how they feel, and while the original screencap was allowed to be posted let's not let this devolve further.

Date: 2016-03-02 02:18 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fawkatronic.livejournal.com
Wow, brushing you off because you didn't pay with cash is totally unacceptable. Payment is payment, be it physical goods, art-trade, or cash. I see this kind of attitude towards art trades a lot but I never thought people would extend it all the way to actual physical goods being traded.

Date: 2016-03-21 11:44 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nayeliefox.livejournal.com
Okay. So I feel like I need to defend myself here for once.
Yes, It has been a while since this 'trade' went down.
Of course he included the parts that made me bad, but did not bother to include my explanations/ responses, or the fact that we talked in person. He was notified that I was busy with commissions and that he was okay with waiting and to take my time IN PERSON. I also had an old acquaintance with me on that day as my witness. Not like it really matters anyways.
I took a long hiatus from commissions, because I lost ALL joy in drawing whatso ever; That joy lost by people jumping down my throat any time I would ever doodle in my very little -free- time.
As of course he included anything I doodled while trying to find inspiration again, which is pretty low imo.
But little did he include all of the commissions and work I have caught up on. All of the hours I spend trying to do the best job possible for my commissioners to redeem myself.
I feel very targeted and this is extremely one sided. As expected as a post on this site.
I mean, this site is about 'making people look bad'
I have gone through crazy amounts of BS in my personal life, and I work full time (which he is indeed aware about because he has me on facebook and can see what I am up to, also why he seemed to target me for spending -some- of my free time crafting and sewing rather than drawing 24/7 like a machine.
I have been on a Hiatus since November, coming back recently and spitting out commissions almost every day. Doing the absolute most I can handle considering I work 8 hour days(not including art), have carpel tunnel, and scoliosis that prevents me from sitting long.
I have not had any legitimate income from commissions that WHOLE time. I have only been working on OWED commissions.

I also want to stress that this was an offline trade.
I'm rather upset that he would post here, honestly.
This was a trade between friends, not a customer.
I have been working my absolute ass off to get caught up.
Not ONCE did I say this wasn't a commission because he didn't 'pay' me, As he stated above.
I stated it was an 'offline trade' -as friends- And if he wanted to make it an 'online trade' -customer/ commissioner- then he would join my commission list (which is now almost completely done ..oh, did I mention I have been WORKING MY BUTT OFF?)
Yep, I have been, but that goes un-noticed, and the only things that are noticed are the odd times I doodle for myself when I am inspired.

All in all, you can tell I'm not pleased.
I have worked hard to get to where I am in the art community, And worked even harder to develop my own style.
Its sad that life gets in the way sometimes and can send people in downward spirals, but I have been fighting for myself to come out of it.

If anyone has any questions or comments regarding this, or my future art.
Feel free to email me at nayeliecommissions@gmail.com

Date: 2016-03-21 11:55 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] celestinaketzia.livejournal.com
I feel very targeted and this is extremely one sided. As expected as a post on this site.

Any person posted here has always been welcome to come and speak as you are now. However, how you approach the members here makes most of the difference. Artists who are willing to fix their mistakes without excuses or guilt tripping tend to walk away with folks whom are quite impressed with them. Though it does seem like you've already made up your mind about this group.

Date: 2016-03-22 12:06 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nayeliefox.livejournal.com
I am willing to fix my mistakes and I have been working very hard towards making the difference.

Date: 2016-03-22 12:08 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kayla-la.livejournal.com
I think the problem right now is less the actual mistakes (which you are working on), and more that you come off like you're angry with your customers for being frustrated about the wait times. I think people would expect a more apologetic attitude in these situations, you know?

Date: 2016-03-22 12:30 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nayeliefox.livejournal.com
I would feel more apologetic if he had tried to resolve this with me personally rather than involving tons of other people,
on a public post; That is going to be here forever.
He -did not whatso ever- contact me any time before making this post, and I didn't even know about it until he sent me a threatening message on facebook.
I would have been more sympathizing to a customer who doesn't know or see what I do in my time or what I got through, but he was a -friend- and had full access to my personal life.
And he most definitely crossed the line with threats before even talking it out with me.
Upon his recent message, I responded immediately telling him how to get the ball rolling on his commission by simply sending his reference to my email, to then see he also made posts on my FA trying to tarnish my name and scare people away from me.
Once again, this trade happened in person between friends. My FA; nothing was ever involved or brought up and I'm hurt that he targeted it. Especially when I keep my personal life and FA artwork separate.
I don't mean to sound rude, or angry. If anything I'm stressed, and feel betrayed.

Date: 2016-03-22 12:33 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kayla-la.livejournal.com
Hmm. I don't see it quite the same way you do, though I'm sure the different perspective is from not being close to the situation. I have no reason to take it personally as you have.

I don't entirely agree with your reasoning here, but I don't think it would help to argue with you. Whether or not you attempt to work things out with the OP is up to you, and I wish you luck in getting things squared away!

Date: 2016-03-22 01:04 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nayeliefox.livejournal.com
You list all of those dates as though I never gave you responses.

The times I did not respond, I was away from home and simply forgot until you send me a nudge then I responded immediately, and apologized.

Either way, I'm no longer dealing with it on here.
You made it an online issue, so now you can proceed to send your reference to my commission email and I'll work to it as I responded to you on facebook after you threatened me.
Upon completing your commission, I'd like you to mark this as resolved so we can move on with our lives.

Date: 2016-03-22 12:08 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] celestinaketzia.livejournal.com
That's fantastic to hear! And when the OP's trade has been completed please do let us know so that we can properly mark this as resolved for you.

Date: 2016-03-22 02:32 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lostlatios.livejournal.com
Working your butt off hmm 2 years to complete something that you were given payment for.. Hmm yea not buying it.

First off you came on here to defend yourself yet you're digging yourself a deeper hole. Belittling a transaction by using quotations on "Trade" saying it was an "Offline deal", what does this change? Other than now you look like you're trying to sweep it under the rug like it doesn't matter and you didn't wrong this person.

Bottom line, you get payed for something, you deliver the service. If you don't that's stealing.

This site is to give customers a voice when they run into people like yourself who feel the need to put themselves on a higher pedestal as though the customer is below their personal fancies. Sorry to break it to you but when you're being payed for something, regardless of the type of payment, that becomes a priority.
And sorry but the amount of conventions you have the ample time to attend and pay for seems to contradict everything you say about your "little free time". personal life... Riiiiight.

My advice to you is grow up and learn some responsibility. If you couldn't handle the work load you should have simply refunded your customers after a few months at most.
Edited Date: 2016-03-22 02:36 am (UTC)

Mod Comment

Date: 2016-03-25 01:46 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] celestinaketzia.livejournal.com
Please be aware that deleting comments is absolutely against our rules. If you'd like to participate in this community, you are absolutely welcome to, but mind the rules we've laid out.

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