Advice on how to reject [free] project work...?

[suzaku-ou.livejournal.com]

Around July, I requested to be an artists for a game project (that would commercial, but would have all the team members working on it for free and profits would be divided amongst them...I'm not sure how it would work, seeing as most of the members were minors anyway...), and was accepted.

I was eager to lend my art skills (however low they were) for a game project that seemed interesting.

However, now I am regretting my decision to work on any game artwork at all. Due to the content and nature of the game's premise, I thought that the group members would all be of legal age (or matured, at least), but I was wrong...



All of the team members are 18 and younger, and I'm the oldest member there. The atmosphere is very unsettling for me (I don't dislike minors, but it is awkward for me to work with people who are my niece's and nephew's ages, especially when the leader is directing me and he brings up irrelevant personal topics like religion and romance). The leader is also very demanding, and while I can sympathize with his vision for creating a professional game, I am not motivated enough to endure so-called 'critique' and go through 15+ edits of a simple CG (before AND after the CG completion) when my own commissioners only get 2 edits, tops--and they actually pay me.

For example, you don't say that you like someone's art style, have them draw you a sample, ask them to change the art style and then request 5+ edits on a base, and then even request 5+ edits on the full CG when everything has already been inked and colored. 

I don't want to seem like I'm money-grubbing, but along with working with many people much younger than me, working in a position where I have to change my art style and edit far too much for a simple figure CG, as well as dealing with frivolous personal topics, marketing, and other issues, I really don't see myself working with this group long-term.

I keep thinking that I was stupid to accept a position where I would be over-worked, especially during a time when my family was going through a financial crisis. I was even scolded for working on a free project when I could have been working to clear older commissions.

Plus, I really can't work with a person who can only think about profit. It's common sense, but I honestly can't work with a leader who only thinks of making back profit after he sells his game and the individual group members' work is yet to be factored into that.

i.e. "I really want to get this game done so that I can hurry up and sell it at a convention."
I don't think much can come out of a $10 digital download or a $3 demo disc when 14 people are working on it... But money isn't the reason why I want to quit.

As a college student who might graduate in the next year or so, I don't want to be bossed around by high school students for a job that I neither enjoy nor is beneficial for me in the long-run.

I've had many commissioners contact me only to ignore my replies when it came to project work, but this group was eager to take me in for free... However, after taking 1.5 month(s) to work on a single sprite, it made me realize that this was fruitless for me, and now, I could care less about getting 'exposure.' 

And it hurts me a little, because even though I'm not that good of an artist, I also like my ego getting stroked every once in a while, and I suppose that's what made me stay for a while. But I'm done now. They can find a better artist to work for free (even if they say otherwise). I'm grateful enough to have the time to work hard, try my best to improve and be commissioned by people who actually understand the value of an artist's effort.

I apologize if this next part is offensive... It also irks me a little when some people say, "I would love to hire you, but I am a high school student and cannot afford to pay you." I don't know how to respond to that because when I was a high school student, I would save up money until I was legal and had a paypal account to actually commission someone. I don't know if I should pity people who say that or not...especially when there are some skilled artists who do work for free... (not that I'm advertising this since I support freelance artists)




I really regret requesting to be part of this project but have no idea how to turn them down when I've already completed 1 sprite for them and even gave them the high-resolution file. I just don't want this guilt of avoiding them to be present anymore. I have commissions, a life and college coursework and don't want to deal with this other problem in my life, especially when family members and friends have suggested that I just quit working as the group's artist. 

I am an animu artist and love drawing but I just can't work for 'free' in these type of conditions. I've always just drawn free for friends and family, so doing it in such a demanding environment under people younger than me is awkward and draining in my opinion.

I also have a question on whether or not any artist should agree to this?
"I would consider that it's work for hire, and I retain full copyright of the work and have the right to use it anywhere I want without giving credit to you. And you can't use the work as your portfolio and to show it elsewhere.

If you agree to the term, and are able to do (3), then I would consider giving you a continuous work per month, where you will draw certain amount of images for me."

If anyone would like to give me advice on this (please be constructive), I will gladly listen. Thank you for reading my rant.

Comments

(frozen comment)

[ocelotish]

I'm going to second what everyone else said about quitting.

General rule of thumb: if this person honestly thought their game/website/comic/whatever was going to be profitable, they would take out a loan to pay their staff. Why share profits when you can have them all to yourself?

As for work for hire: nothing is work for hire unless it is part of a compilation of sorts (which is sounds like it is) and is expressly agreed to in a written contract. I would NEVER do work for hire for free. Also I am unsure of how little work of hire can be used for self-promotion.

However, your attitude is rubbing me the wrong way a little too. The economy right now sucks. People can't afford luxuries the way they could 4-8 years ago. Yes, this even effects high schoolers. Just because you were able to buy art when you were a high schooler doesn't mean these other people are less responsible than you were.

Also, the economy still sucks so be prepared to work for people in a capacity you don't like, for less than you're worth, and for people who don't seem to know what they're doing. While I'm not saying this project is a good idea, I think your ego is a little out of check too. Especially, that bit about not wanting to work for someone who is profit-driven? That's just the way the world works, sorry to say. No matter who you work for, they're going to be worried about their own numbers, sometimes in really ridiculous ways, because their bosses will hold them accountable.

Sorry to be harsh, but I feel like you were using this community to rant a bit and that's not particularly professional either. Go ahead and complain to your friends, in your personal journal, etc. but this isn't really the place. It paints you in a bad light.

(frozen comment)

[suzaku-ou.livejournal.com]

Thank you for your opinion.

The economy was bad when I was in high school--and I still saved up money to commission artists when they needed help (this was after I graduated, and granted, it wasn't much but better than nothing).
I'm not saying that any teen is less responsible than I ever was, nor did I ever allude to that. Saying that out of the blue can be implied as a misinterpretation of my words. I'd rather commission a talented artist in need than spend my money out of instant gratification for things like games, manga, etc.

I don't mind working at a low rate so long as I'm not setting the standard for them and taking work away from professionals at the same level. I got annoyed because profits were all this kid was thinking of, and yet, there wasn't a concrete plan on how to pay all the team members anyway. In fact, he just posted something like this last month:

"Upon the game's completion, staff will be given a fair percentage of the acquired revenue according to the quality and quantity relative to their services. Artists applying for this project may suggest a price for their work per background or cg, but considering I am still a student and do not have the ability to pay business prices, it would be much more convenient if immediate payment was not necessary and therefore applicants that will work for free or do not require immediate payment will be prioritized. Being paid per completed art would also mean that no percentage of revenue would be given to that person. Art quality is also still very important and will most certainly be taken into strong consideration. If you are worried about the project's completion or success, I can only state that the key people involved have no intention of abandoning their positions. You can decide for yourself if you believe that there is enough potential in this project to be successful."

I've just asked one of my honest and trusted friends this yesterday and he said it was very unprofessional to suggest prices like this for the amount of work and quality desired.

More than 2 months prior to him posting this, I've already consulted friends concerning the amount of work he asked me to do for a single sprite. They already said it was horribly unfair, but none of them were professional artists--most weren't even artists but knew it was wrong.

I DIDN'T post this to rant. I posted to ask for advice from fellow artists, especially after reading the person's new post on how he'd pay new artists wages but the current team members and I would only get a percentage of the profits.

Even though I've been doing commissions for around 6 years offline, I still lack knowledge when it comes to pricing and business practice, and from my experience, this has been the only community that actually offers constructive advice.

As a person, I'm not going to just sit here and twist my intentions without knowing my side of the story.

(frozen comment)

[ocelotish]

This is the part I felt like was ranting: "...It also irks me a little when some people say, "I would love to hire you, but I am a high school student and cannot afford to pay you." I don't know how to respond to that because when I was a high school student, I would save up money until I was legal and had a paypal account to actually commission someone.

I don't see how that relates to the issue at all or is even more than a personal complaint and it does reek of "When I was in high school I was better than they were!" If you want to give me an alternate explanation, go ahead, but it's not advice.

I got annoyed because profits were all this kid was thinking of, and yet, there wasn't a concrete plan on how to pay all the team members anyway.

Being annoyed that he had no plan/way to pay you is fine, being annoyed that he was profit-driven is not reasonable.

I DIDN'T post this to rant. I posted to ask for advice from fellow artists, especially after reading the person's new post on how he'd pay new artists wages but the current team members and I would only get a percentage of the profits.

The first thing I did was I answered your questions/gave you advice. However, the second half of your post has little to nothing to do with advice.

Plus, I really can't work with a person who can only think about profit. It's common sense, but I honestly can't work with a leader who only thinks of making back profit after he sells his game and the individual group members' work is yet to be factored into that.

i.e. "I really want to get this game done so that I can hurry up and sell it at a convention."
I don't think much can come out of a $10 digital download or a $3 demo disc when 14 people are working on it... But money isn't the reason why I want to quit.

As a college student who might graduate in the next year or so, I don't want to be bossed around by high school students for a job that I neither enjoy nor is beneficial for me in the long-run.

I've had many commissioners contact me only to ignore my replies when it came to project work, but this group was eager to take me in for free... However, after taking 1.5 month(s) to work on a single sprite, it made me realize that this was fruitless for me, and now, I could care less about getting 'exposure.'

And it hurts me a little, because even though I'm not that good of an artist, I also like my ego getting stroked every once in a while, and I suppose that's what made me stay for a while. But I'm done now. They can find a better artist to work for free (even if they say otherwise). I'm grateful enough to have the time to work hard, try my best to improve and be commissioned by people who actually understand the value of an artist's effort.

I apologize if this next part is offensive... It also irks me a little when some people say, "I would love to hire you, but I am a high school student and cannot afford to pay you." I don't know how to respond to that because when I was a high school student, I would save up money until I was legal and had a paypal account to actually commission someone. I don't know if I should pity people who say that or not...especially when there are some skilled artists who do work for free...

Name one thing you asked for advice about in those four paragraphs, heck, point out how that was advice-critical information. That's why it feels like you were using AB for a rant. It's about how you don't like your boss (for a personal reason), you don't want to be bossed around by a high schooler, how annoying the project was for you, how your ego is hurt, and how high schoolers say they have no money, but want to commission you and how you managed with your funds. None of those things is something any of us can give you advice on. The purpose of your post was initially advice, but you did drift off into a personal complaint/rant.

I can only comment on what you said, not your intentions. What you posted contained a long section that didn't contribute to the post about how annoyed you were about stupid, little things that didn't effect the situation (some that weren't even part of it) without asking for any advice on that. How is that anything but a rant.

Also, just wondering, why are you commenting on this a month later?

(frozen comment)

[suzaku-ou.livejournal.com]

No one else has attacked me for this, and I had no intention of posting something "unprofessional." If it was truly too personal, moderators would have rejected my entry.

First of all, I don't think any older artist for hire wants to be bossed around by a high schooler for no pay (I didn't know that he was a minor from his posting; it wasn't mentioned--I thought he was legal due to the content/rating of the project). Secondly, the project was annoying because I was also in summer classes when I did this, but even while the person knew that, I would still be nagged (again, for no pay, and twice the effort). Thirdly, one thing that really annoys me is when teenagers type in a way that makes it seem as if they're begging for art. I didn't use the exact words in my post, but to me, it makes it seem as if all the time I put into my art is worth nothing. (Don't get me wrong, I do draw for younger online friends and nice people in general.) My ego is constantly hurt not because of the multitudes of talented artists in the world, but mostly by people who heavily devalue my art, and insult me for no reason at all.

While I do value your contribution to my questions, I can't help but think that you're another person getting a kick out of making me feel bad about myself. I've heard that I should grow thicker skin, but when there's a single dissenter out of the many kind people who have offered constructive advice, I can't help but wonder. If you want to find someone to bully, please go elsewhere.

I'm a hard-working college student who cannot always be active on social sites (plus, my inbox is spammed by Russian spambots and the like so I can't always get to comments right away), but when I am online, I don't want to deal with any insensitive people.

(frozen comment)

[kayla-la.livejournal.com]

This is getting way too personal, so I'm freezing this here. If you two want to continue your discussion, please take it to PMs.