Paypal fees?

[korsetkoat.livejournal.com]

This has already been been discussed in this community before- who should pay the fee, the commissioner or the artist? The general agreement seems to be, factor paypal fees into your initial commission price to cover it, because it is the artist who should pay the fees and not the commissioner, as by PayPal's TOS. However, there are many artists I've met who do not seem to have read/know PayPal's TOS and their prices are not factored for the fees.

What should a commissioner/artist do in a situation where, a commissioner sends money thinking an artist has factored in fees, but in fact hasn't payed what the artist was wanting (i.e., an artist wants 4.00$, they only get 3.58$)? It seems like one of those situations that could get ugly if not treated with care. Which is why so far I, as a commissioner, have been paying fees most of the time when buying a commission.

Would the artist have the right to withhold artwork until the full fee has been paid? Or does the commissioner have the right to the commission because it is the artist's own hindsight and ignorance that got them out of some money? I haven't had this situation myself yet but I feel as though this kind of thing will happen at one point or another. Is it a courtesy for the commissioner to send more money despite the TOS or should the artist, well, just suck it up because it is due to their own ignorance of the TOS?

Edit; I suppose the easiest solution for an artist who will not give you art until you pay more money is to open a dispute.

However, let's say you told them all this but they ignore your warning about the TOS. Should you report someone for breaking the TOS by making your customers pay the fees? Is there even a way to do so?

Comments

[kayla-la.livejournal.com]

They get away with it because nobody knows to report them, but it's against the contracts because well, it means less people using CC's, which means the companies get less money, so they don't want businesses doing that.

[foxhack.livejournal.com]

Yes, but you can't say that you're including it.

"My price is $26.33." That's fine.
"My price is $26.33, and that includes PayPal fees." That's not fine.

[foxhack.livejournal.com]

http://www.rolbe.com/paypal.htm

In this case, $26.33 comes down to $25 after fees plus the cross-border payment.

[cloudpouncer.livejournal.com]

I see alot of people saying to work the fees into their prices. How do you work a fee into a price when you are giving out quotes to people and are uncertain of payment method ? I simply tell customers there is a 3% fee for online transactions. If you don't call it a paypal fee you're not breaking the Paypal TOS. The other thing I see people saying is that 3-4% isn't a big deal anyways so why bother. Well it should really go both ways then but that 3-4% makes a big difference to me. If a buyer chooses other payment methods (Check, money order, cashiers check) I prefer to save them them the difference. So to me it's really the choice of the person buying the commission whether they want to pay me a extra 3% for doing business online. Now on the other hand if a artist only accepts paypal as a payment method I definitely think they should just work costs into their prices if they feel they are losing out.

[claytronic.livejournal.com]

Ohh okay
Thanks!

[silverfalln.livejournal.com]

Yep, I had to run to the ATM and get $10 out one day for to pay for two card cases (just over a dollar), since the place had a $5 minimum for card charges.

The fish store I worked at also had a minimum charge, but I forget what it was. And the fees the credit card companies charged to process the orders are/were very high. PayPal is incredibly reasonable compared to those.

[taasla.livejournal.com]

Yes, but the point is that 3 or 4% is your responsibility as an artist. You are the one using Paypal to make your transactions easier. (Not sure about your customers, but mine rarely ever ask for anything but PP.) As others said above, it is simply a part of running a business. Factoring the business costs into one's prices really isn't that hard. It's the same as factoring the use of markers and pens into your traditional commission costs.

[mandyseley.livejournal.com]

Relevant:
http://www.rolbe.com/paypal.htm
A handy calculator to help you work the fees into your prices.

EDIT:
...and by "work the fees into your prices," it basically means:

1. Decide what you want to get paid and use the calculator above to determine what the price of your item needs to be for you to receive that amount. List that amount as the actual price right from the start. Don't tack it on at the end as "PayPal fees" or anything of the sort.

2. Do these calculations for everything you sell, even if your customer isn't paying via PayPal. PayPal specifically forbids "charging customers a surcharge for using PayPal" - which basically means, you can't charge more for using PayPal as opposed to other payment methods. Charge the same amount for all payment methods you accept, and you're pretty much golden.

[mandyseley.livejournal.com]

Now for my more on-topic answer!

Would the artist have the right to withhold artwork until the full fee has been paid?

No. The artist gave you a price, and you paid that price. They can't just decide to increase it after the fact and hold your work hostage like that.

Is it a courtesy for the commissioner to send more money despite the TOS or should the artist, well, just suck it up because it is due to their own ignorance of the TOS?

The artist needs to suck it up. It's not a "courtesy" to allow someone to break the rules, and you shouldn't allow it to happen.

However, let's say you told them all this but they ignore your warning about the TOS. Should you report someone for breaking the TOS by making your customers pay the fees? Is there even a way to do so?

Open the PayPal dispute to get your money back in the first place, if the commissioner is refusing to deliver your artwork at all.

I believe to report a TOS violation, you would simply open a PayPal dispute about the transaction in question and mention the violation as one of your reasons for the dispute.

[korsetkoat.livejournal.com]

The way it was worded in the very first post I thought that they had it factored into their price AND still told the customer to pay the fee, though if the customer sent only that, paypal would take away the fees when transferring the money automatically, right?

[chronidu.livejournal.com]

Price your commissions factoring in the paypal fees in the first place. That's about all there is too it I've found.

[korsetkoat.livejournal.com]

Oh, thanks about the reporting thing, I couldn't for the life of me figure out how to do it...

[taasla.livejournal.com]

Contact Us > Report Fraud/Prohibited Use

You don't need to enter in a specific transaction ID at all, so don't worry about that. Just be sure to include all they need to know in the bottom box.

I reported a third party selling artists' work without their permission this way, and I got back a reply very quickly that it was being handled.

[korsetkoat.livejournal.com]

Oh, thank you for the how-to! :)

[sovy.livejournal.com]

Oops, looks like you were doing it all along! Now I get it. :)

[foxhack.livejournal.com]

Oh yes, I got that impression too. I just made the math in my head... "$26.33? Wait, isn't that 25 after fees?" And it clicked. ;)

Only 3%

[neondragon.livejournal.com]

Paypal's fees really aren't that bad though. 3% + 30 cents. If you're talking a commission that's a HUGE, $2000 fursuit or something, then that adds up to $60... Even then, if I were the artist in question, I'd still accept that loss because of the large nature of the item; the profit margin is equally large.

I would hazard most artists have the fees figured out and have a rounded amount added to the commission at the start to cover these costs. Hidden padding to cover costs. :-) Not a surprise to the commissioner, because they already know what they're paying up front and it's not tacked on after the fact. When you use supplies and services, you should have those factored in to the amount you charge for your commission. :-)

[pariahsdream.livejournal.com]

I've recently amended my TOS to state that my prices are base prices and that I'll send them the total- you could do something similar after asking them how they would like to pay the monies.

[be-prepared.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it's only an issue i think if they are charging more to those that pay via PayPal and not by other means for the same thing.

[keeote.livejournal.com]

That's like charging the customer for your own bank fees.

If you don't like paying PayPal's fee for receiving money via their service, simply ask your customer to pay via another method. Western Union MO, for example.

[jurann.livejournal.com]

Instead of asking for a 4% online transaction fee, why don't you offer a 4% check/MO "sale price" instead, and raise your base prices by 4%? ;D Then nobody can really get pissy about anything, the guy who has to write out a check and go to the PO to get stamps and mail something physical off to you at their great inconvenience gets a SAVINGS, and the guys who get the simple and convenient online payment just pay regular price. ;)

[jurann.livejournal.com]

Oh sure, Western Union, AWESOME IDEA! And the biggest scam in the known world. They ask you how much the person on the other end should get, then they charge you an $8 service fee PLUS 5% of the amount that the destination party is getting. It's a scam so huge, you'd think it came out of Nigeria! Any commissioner or buyer told to pay via Western Union after finding all this out at a Western Union counter will either commit suicide (and you'll never see your money) or they'll hate you forever for sucking it up and paying the outrageous fees.

[bluefantasyz.livejournal.com]

The local gas station adds a .25 surcharge on orders under $4 paid with a credit or debit card. Though I'm pretty sure they make plenty of money there...

[bluefantasyz.livejournal.com]

Do you know HOW to report them? Because the local gas station charges a .25 surcharge on debit orders under $4, even though I'm sure they rake in plenty of money...

[bluefantasyz.livejournal.com]

It's one of my pet peeves for an artist to factor PayPal fees into their prices. It's the artist's cost, not the customer's!

Also I feel it's different to factor in time and equipment cost, because you actually need those things to complete the work. You don't need to use paypal, so the fee for using it should be the artist's responsibility.