Paypal fees?

[korsetkoat.livejournal.com]

This has already been been discussed in this community before- who should pay the fee, the commissioner or the artist? The general agreement seems to be, factor paypal fees into your initial commission price to cover it, because it is the artist who should pay the fees and not the commissioner, as by PayPal's TOS. However, there are many artists I've met who do not seem to have read/know PayPal's TOS and their prices are not factored for the fees.

What should a commissioner/artist do in a situation where, a commissioner sends money thinking an artist has factored in fees, but in fact hasn't payed what the artist was wanting (i.e., an artist wants 4.00$, they only get 3.58$)? It seems like one of those situations that could get ugly if not treated with care. Which is why so far I, as a commissioner, have been paying fees most of the time when buying a commission.

Would the artist have the right to withhold artwork until the full fee has been paid? Or does the commissioner have the right to the commission because it is the artist's own hindsight and ignorance that got them out of some money? I haven't had this situation myself yet but I feel as though this kind of thing will happen at one point or another. Is it a courtesy for the commissioner to send more money despite the TOS or should the artist, well, just suck it up because it is due to their own ignorance of the TOS?

Edit; I suppose the easiest solution for an artist who will not give you art until you pay more money is to open a dispute.

However, let's say you told them all this but they ignore your warning about the TOS. Should you report someone for breaking the TOS by making your customers pay the fees? Is there even a way to do so?

Comments

[kadaria.livejournal.com]

>who should pay the fee, the commissioner or the artist?<

I believe the way this discussion has gone in this community before is that the artist/seller is responsible for the fee as per paypal's TOS. If a seller making the customer pay for the fee, then the seller's account can be suspended.

>Which is why so far I, as a commissioner, have been paying fees most of the time when buying a commission<
It's nice of you to tip but I don't think that tips in this business are required.

>a commissioner sends money thinking an artist has factored in fees<
Then the artist is at fault for not taking 5 minutes out of their day to price something correctly and the buyer should not bear the brunt of that mistake.

>Would the artist have the right to withhold artwork until the full fee has been paid<
No, because the buyer is not responsible for paying your fees as stated before. Essentially, when you work with any kind of a credit/debit transaction the business is charged a small fee for each transaction. The same applies to paypal. If you don't want to pay fees for using their service then you need to take payment in another form.

>Is it a courtesy for the commissioner to send more money despite the TOS or should the artist, well, just suck it up because it is due to their own ignorance of the TOS<
Again, it's nice to tip but not required. The seller is paying to use paypal's service. They can suck it up.

[spiffystuff.livejournal.com]

Er, honestly I wouldn't haggle over a few dollars or cents XD
If I were commissioning someone and for some reason they decided I needed to pay paypal fees too, I would do so, but attempt to politely point out that that's against paypal's TOS.

Unfortunately some people are super sensitive to any criticism and may get upset no matter how polite you are. So maybe it'd be best to wait for the commission to be done and delivered, then I might say something like "thanks for this commission, I love it! I just wanted to give a word of feedback, though, technically it's against paypal's TOS to charge for fees. I don't mind paying it, but you might want to raise your prices to include the fees instead of charging separately. Anyway, thanks for the lovely art"

or something to that effect.

[lilenth.livejournal.com]

Personally as it stands, if I'm daft and don't factor in my overheads, I'll eat the cost rather than upset a customer, this goes for any overheads, if I forget to include shipping in their final total I'll pay it myself and chalk it up to my own stupidity, the only exception is if I give them a total including shipping and they don't pay the full amount, that's a client mistake and I'll reject the payment and re-invoice in that case.

I think you're going to find it varies by artist, it is nice if you are kind enough to pay the fees but generally it should be assumed that they're factored in already as part of the overheads. (and tips are always welcome :D)

The artist has no right to with hold artwork since Paypal's terms of service make it violation to get the customer to pay the fees. If they're unhappy with the payment because you didn't pay fees (which they're not supposed to make you pay anyway, their price should cover their overheads, if it doesn't that's their problem) they really should either eat the fees themselves or refund you fully while cancelling the commission.

[claytronic.livejournal.com]

I always tell the commissioner to pay the fees. I'm making art for them., they're paying me for my talents, I should not be paying their fees. I'm supposed to be making money, not paying 50 cents every time. [50 cents adds up, guys!!]
Imagine if someone bought a 20$ commission off me.
Sorry but I just lost 2$ out of my own pocket because someone doesn't wanna pay the fee. :\

Always tell em to pay the fees.
http://www.rolbe.com/paypal.htm

[korsetkoat.livejournal.com]

[...]it is the artist who should pay the fees and not the commissioner, as by PayPal's TOS. This is not a question of WHO should pay them, but what happens if the artist does not know that they should pay them.

[lilenth.livejournal.com]

Raise your prices then, fees and stuff count as overheads and thus are part of your base costs like say materials, new pens and pencils and packaging , if your prices aren't enough to cover your base costs plus provide a decent wage for you then they're too low.

[sovy.livejournal.com]

Artists either factor it in to their price or just swallow the fee themselves. Businesses that have credit/debit machines also have to swallow the fee so this isn't really unusual. It is also against the Paypal TOS to charge a person for paypal fees.

Personally I just use the Payment Owed option and pay the fee and everything myself because I live in Canada and use CAD so Paypal's cut goes from 3% to ~6% (cross border and currency conversion fees) and that might surprise the artist. It saves me from the drama and sending a second payment. In the future I'll probably just tack on 5%-10% onto the commission price to cover the fees and use the purchase goods/service option because how I thought Payment Owed worked might not line up with how it actually does work. That and I get buyer protection (lol, what good that will do).

If an artist didn't account for the fees then just tell them to adjust their prices and that this first lesson is pretty cheap at about a dollar or two of their own time.

[blackberrypie.livejournal.com]

Artists need to learn how to factor that into their commission prices. I have NEVER asked anyone to pay a fee ever. I have however added a tip here and there when I commission art, and I have gotten a tip here and there when people commission me. Its a very nice thing to do but it should not be the buyer's responsibility.

[sovy.livejournal.com]

Just raise your prices to account for the Paypal fee. Either way someone is paying for the fee so you might as well do it in a way that doesn't annoy Paypal and open yourself to some troll reporting you.

[korsetkoat.livejournal.com]

A few cents either way does not harm me either, but the fees would become steeper the higher the price of the commission. I only used the small amounts because that was all I could do of math off the top of my head. xD

That sounds like a good idea, to wait until after it is finished.

[silverfalln.livejournal.com]

"Businesses that have credit/debit machines also have to swallow the fee so this isn't really unusual."

I don't think most people realize this, unless they have either worked for a small business that told their employees about this, or have owned their own business.

[spiffystuff.livejournal.com]

Ah, gotcha.
Well if it was a really big commission that we're talking more than just a few dollars of fees, enough that it made one rethink the commission, then it'd be best to bring it up before paying anything or agreeing.
Also, I'd personally never pay via the personal/"gift" option if someone asked me to, just politely say "I'm sorry, I'm not comfortable with that, I really would like to stick with the merchant options." or whatever :P

[bladespark.livejournal.com]

This. Honestly I was startled when I first encountered an artist asking for customers to pay the fees. The thought had never so much as crossed my mind! Paying fees, just like paying the cost of my sewing machine or the cost of pencils, is just part of doing business!

[killercacti.livejournal.com]

the fees don't belong to the commissioner though, they belong to you for using paypal as your payment service. stores have to pay a fee to credit and debit card companies to utilize their services; because of this they factor the cost of these fees into their prices. if they don't want to pay the fees, they don't take credit/debit.

that being said, it's fine if you're discussing a commission with a customer and charge them $5.50 or whatever to cover the fees. but if you charge them $5 and then say "oh hey you owe me 50 cents for paypal's fees," that's not cool

[blackberrypie.livejournal.com]

Thats exactly how I've thought of it.

[nambroth.livejournal.com]

Not to be a jerk, but you're not paying their fees. You are paying YOUR fees... the fees that the service charges you for using it. Just as a credit card merchant account works.
It's really easy... just raise your asking price by whatever percentage you usually get dinged on for fees. Roll it into your price instead of tacking it on at the end, if that makes sense.

[claytronic.livejournal.com]

Ohh
Tell them to pay it. I guess :\

[claytronic.livejournal.com]

....... What?

[claytronic.livejournal.com]

Yeah. I charge them including the fees.
Like 5.50.

[spiffystuff.livejournal.com]

Yeah the only fee it makes sense to ask for is shipping since that can vary wildly, and one's not always making something physical to be shipped

[claytronic.livejournal.com]

I do :)

[banrai.livejournal.com]

As an artist that relies on commissions as my income, I absolutely do not charge my patrons for the PayPal fee. While yes, a dollar or two here and there add up over time, I have found that people are much more willing to buy when you have nice even pricing, as opposed to saying, "X item is 22.91" or whatever.

The fees are really not that much, and honestly if you don't want to pay to use the service then how can you justify having other people pay you for your service. Especially if Paypal is the only payment method that you accept.

[korsetkoat.livejournal.com]

Wait...you include the fees in your price but, "I always tell the commissioner to pay the fees."?

So...if it were 5.50, you would tell them to pay the fees. Which means they are actually paying more than you're charging by having to spend 5.97...

[foxhack.livejournal.com]

If you openly state that you're charging X amount plus the PayPal fee, anyone can report you to PayPal and have your account suspended. Or so people have said.

[claytronic.livejournal.com]

I include the fee in the price.

Example
$26.33