artists_beware | Artist/Builder Beware!!!

EXPLAIN: Ok, so what had happened here was I commissioned Poprock back in December for some crow wings. I was having a different builder make a head for me, so I thought it’d be a good idea to make a collaboration of multiple builders for a partial suit. Poprock was saying, at the time, that she was really desperate for commissions, so I thought I could help her out by hiring her. I was talking with her on Second Life about the commission I had in mind, and even modeling it after a different builders design. When I asked for a price quote, she said that it would cost me $125, which I thought was a reasonable price. Afterwards, I asked Poprock how long it would take to make them, and she said that it would only take a couple of months to do. So, from there I sent her a duct tape dummy of my arm, and an envelope containing the down payment for my wings. ($50) In about 2 weeks she began working on the wings and had a livestream video of her working on the wings. In a couple of days she sent me a picture of the progress of the wings. They looked pretty rough so I hoped that they’d look better over time, and in all honesty I was just happy that I was getting the commission made. Periodically, I would check in to see if any progress was made on the wings. At first I was asking once a week because I was really excited having this commission done. Poprock told me, whenever I asked, that no progress had been made on them since the livestream video. I started asking less often because I wanted to give her some space and not put any pressure on her.

A month passes and I ask about the progress of my wings. She again says that no progress has been made. When the next month passes, she asks on Facebook for some money so that she could buy something. Out of generosity, I gave her that money and we both agreed that it would be put towards paying off my wings. ($35) I was hoping that by paying her a little more to what I owed, that it would motivate her to work on my wings. To my disappointment, another month passes and zero progress has been made. Yet again, she asks for money for another thing (which I don’t know what it was) so I gladly obliged and paid her the remainder of the money on my wings. ($40) Of course I was hoping that some progress was made on my wings by now...she tells me that barely anything had been done. I was remaining patient as possible with her because I knew that if I said the wrong thing, she’d probably get mad at me and take even longer on making them. It’s around April 2011 this time, and I ask her if she could give me a deadline on when the wings might be finished. At first she tells me that she’ll have them done by the end of the month. As April came to a close, I asked if she was almost done, and Poprock told me that only one wing was done, but I would have to wait a bit longer. Also, to state, there were multiple times when she was guilt tripping me by explaining why the wings were taking so long, and she even offered me a full refund in May because she was feeling really upset about some stuff. Being a nice guy, I told her that I was willing to wait for the wings instead. (I fell for her guilt trip)

Eventually, she told me that the new deadline would be at Anthrocon 2011. Even as the days drew closer to Anthrocon, I still asked if any progress had been made on the wings. She dodged the question by saying they’d be done by Anthrocon. So, Anthrocon arrives and I eagerly wait to finally pick up my wings at Poprock’s booth. When I get there, she tells me that they aren’t done. She goes on to say that she has a bunch of commissions in progress, that she was booked until Christmas, and that she’d fit my wing commission “in there, somewhere”. In other words, it wasn’t a priority to her. Let it be noted that she constantly was asking for more commissions as each month went by, while my wings remained untouched. Nearly a month after Anthrocon goes by and I asked if she had done anything with my wings. Wonder of wonders, nothing had been done at all. So, what did I do? I spent 2 hours online talking to her trying to motivate her to work on my wings and other people’s commissions. She agreed to that, and I was glad that some progress was about to be made. One more month goes by, and I ask...she tells me nothing’s been done.

In this 8 month timespan, only one wing was finished and the other one hadn’t even been started on. At this point, my patience ran thin and I had to ask for a refund. She was highly confused by this and didn’t understand why. I explained to her that I was tired of waiting for them. Poprock flips out on me and begins asking all of these questions of why I didn’t say anything. I told her that I was trying to be a nice guy, but in all honesty, I was being too lenient with her. So she tells me that she’s only going to give me 30% back of what I paid once she sells the wings to someone else. First off, how many crows are out there who have the exact same arm size as me, and want the wings? Secondly, only 30%?! I paid her to do a service and she didn’t provide the service at all!

Eventually, I found out that she’s been manipulating other furs as well. Apparently, all of the commissions she was asking people to take from her, were just excuses so she could take the money from them and run off with it. There have been multiple reports from people who commissioned her, where they’ve been waiting up to two years for a commission. Not only that, some people didn’t even get a refund or any kind of update from her. She would often get pissed at them when they asked for an update and she would even go as far as to block them from all form of contact. 14 other people have reported cases similar to mine. In addition to that, some people who actually got the commissions from her were highly disappointed. One of the suits she made at a con even fell apart. The stitching was bad and it couldn’t even hold itself up for a second.

Sorry that this is so long, but all of this had to be explained in explicit detail so I could warn others of this horrible experience I had with this builder. I really worked hard to try and be her friend, but she was just using me the entire time. On one final note, I found out from a friend that Poprock was taking about me behind my back at Otakon and she told him that I hadn’t paid for my wings in full and that I was being extremely rude to her and pressuring her for the wings. Both of these statements are completely false! So that’s my experience here. Please, PLEASE, beware of her!

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I approved this post, but it is very long; please put it under an LJ-cut:

http://www.livejournal.com/support/faqbrowse.bml?faqid=75&q=lj%20cut

In addition, please change the font to a non-bold, larger size.

Edited 2011-08-21 02:17 (UTC)

.3.;

Geez, man. Sorry that happened to you.
I've never heard of a fursuit that actually fell
apart before. >o<

Thanks for the beware!

yeah i see she claims harassment in one of those screenshots. WTF :/

Thanks for the post. I apologize this happened to you.

It's pretty standard to require a non-refundable deposit (usually 30%, but it varies) for fursuit stuff, because of supplies. Also, it's pretty standard to refund in full if you cancel a commission, but NOT refund in full if the commissioner decides to cancel. She has done work on them, even if only half, and like any other artist deserves to be compensated for that time.

I'm curious, did you see and agree to a TOS? How about a queue of projects slated to be completed before yours? I see no mention of it anywhere, but that's generally pretty standard as well. I think your best bet is to either allow her to finish them and receive them, or let her finish them and get the refund, minus the deposit. This post is sorely lacking in details surrounding the actual agreement, and that will help people to understand what's to be expected much more clearly.

Also, in the future, it would help to be a little more clear if you are having problems with the way the maker is proceeding with the commission. I know if it was me reading those posts you made, I'd have not been able to tell you were upset with the progress. We're not mind readers ;3 Nine times out of ten, if we know you have concerns, makers will address them. I've got this feeling that this was a case of misunderstanding how you really felt, especially because of how you said in this post that you thought the wing looked rough, but in all the screenshots you kept saying how nice you thought they were coming along.

Tl;dr- I think you both have a little fault in this one, and I hope both parties can learn from this experience and come to an amicable resolution.

Wish I could edit, but I want to note that a 30% refund sounds a little weird, and there is clearly issue with missed deadlines on Poprock's part.

she does deserve to be compensated for her time, but not if he's getting nothing at all. giving the OP back 30% of their paid money after the wings are sold to a third party is kinda BS :/

er, that was supposed to be in reply to user 'fenrirs_child', my bad. can't delete comments here D:

It's all good ;3

Yeah, I caught that after while rereading the post, usually it's more like 70% (because of the non-refundable deposit), but the thing is, premade/non-commission items tend to go for a lot lower at auction, because you have to hope a) someone wants that item, b) at the price you're asking, and c) that it fits them. Hopefully she'll come in and explain that 30% refund though, because it's kinda got me scratching my head too.

I have to disagree, even if the maker has bought supplies and done some work, if they break the deadlines they agree to (as this maker seems to have done) or greatly exceed a reasonable creation time in the absense of deadlines, that's the maker botching their job & I think their customer deserves a full refund. What good is a half finished product you have no idea when/if it will ever be done?

That said, I think op should have given one more deadline for completion or refund to the maker rather than suddenly requesting a refund. That way it's up to the maker to either get the job done or get the money together & no one us surprised

Edited 2011-08-20 17:14 (UTC)

"Reasonable creation time" is up for interpretation, hence why I asked if this commissioner saw a queue before agreeing to commission her. If there was 6 months worth of work before his stuff, then maybe this was a more reasonable timeframe than it appears. Also, there's still no mention of a TOS yet (or evidence of the terms of the commission), so I feel like he's leaving out a lot of pertinent details still. FWIW I agree that him giving a more strict deadline with potential consequence (like a refund) may have helped too.

Also, the hearsay at the bottom of the post is throwing up some red flags to me, especially the bits not pertaining to his commission experience.

I'm going by what the OP says in this post, since have nothing else to go on. Of course if they are lying through their teeth then it's a totally different story.

According to the OP:
-- Afterwards, I asked Poprock how long it would take to make them, and she said that it would only take a couple of months to do.
-- It’s around April 2011 this time, and I ask her if she could give me a deadline on when the wings might be finished. At first she tells me that she’ll have them done by the end of the month. As April came to a close, I asked if she was almost done, and Poprock told me that only one wing was done, but I would have to wait a bit longer.
--Eventually, she told me that the new deadline would be at Anthrocon 2011. Even as the days drew closer to Anthrocon, I still asked if any progress had been made on the wings. She dodged the question by saying they’d be done by Anthrocon. So, Anthrocon arrives and I eagerly wait to finally pick up my wings at Poprock’s booth. When I get there, she tells me that they aren’t done.

That's THREE SEPARATE deadlines the artist gave that are broken. (8 months >> "a couple of months")

And I know completion times vary and that part wasn't supposed to apply to this particular post, I meant it for other cases you see here sometimes where someone is waiting months for a sketch or an icon. Unless the artist was up front with the wait time before the commissioner paid, that would be inappropriate too.

As for the "hearsay" at the bottom of the post, who knows? It certainly does pertain to the commission experience if true.

Fair enough, I see your point. I'm just under the impression that the lack of evidence surrounding the initial agreement, coupled with the (IMO) dramamongering at the end and the dichotomy between the tone in the provided screenshots and this post means there's more to this story than just what's presented here. I could be way off base, but that's what I'm getting from this post.

You were a friend so I trusted you to follow me TOS that you agree'd to over either Facebook (which you and your friends that are actually HARASSING me on and keep getting deleted) or over steam chat.

I will agree that when I first started, I did NOT have a TOS. I asked you later once it was made and written out, if you agree'd to it. You said YES.

This is why I would tell you constantly that I did not like speaking over Steam chat ECT. You still insisted.

Also, not 3 days before you randomly said you wanted the refund, you said it was fine. You never ONCE said you needed them by a certain date 100%.

If need be, I will defend myself in the court of law, and by that I can subpoena Facebook and possibly Steam for all the information, IP addresses and anything in which would be evidence against my case.

As it stands, you have been slandering my name and posting screenshots with omitted information. You and many others have been filed on FA for it and the admins have removed the journals and warned you.

If need be, I WILL be pursuing this in the court of law. I will NOT tolerate my up and coming fursuiting business being slandered, people spreading libel and the mud throwing.

Also, I remember reading you claimed to need the money? Then why did you get the same product commissioned from another maker?

It is the deposit, the time worked, and I may have said they are 50% done, but it is actually much more. I just didn't include the internal foam work, the feathers being pinned together, the fur cut out and anything else I have done so i made it an easy 50 to benefit the commissioner instead of nitpicking saying they are more around 85% complete.

I have had my name dragged in the mud, users have been blocked, people go around and were spreading rumors that another builder supposedly had to fix multiple suits from me, that I have tons of supposed commissions I have run off with.

Hmm, I only have sold ONE fullsuit, a very few pieces and I always make sure to talk with the commissioners before, during, and after the creation.
Due to that, many commissioners have become good friends, and I let them know they have a free 1 year warranty if anything is to happen to their product.

Also, no one ever says WHO it is I supposedly ran off with's money. And I make posts EVERYWHERE asking these claimed people to contact me. FOR MONTHS. Not a single person has come into contact with me so I now see them as "fake" people that a competitor furuit "maker" has made up to slander and spread libel about me.

Whoa wait a minute, fell apart? Where is this?

"14 other people have reported cases similar to mine."

WHO? No one EVER tells me, no one EVER contacts me. My information is posted EVERYWHERE and I ALWAYS ask people to message me. Not ONCE have I gotten pissy at anyone for asking for updates. If you paid attention, I am constantly apologizing and always thankful for people. Most every stream, I thank people, I great people as soon as I see them enter. I always try and make the commissioning experience as plesant as possible.

So I ask you this; Where is this proof of these 14 people? I have not seen q single one for about the past year you and your friends have been flinging mud at me all over Facebook.

"In addition to that, some people who actually got the commissions from her were highly disappointed. One of the suits she made at a con even fell apart."

You're not helping your case at all.
Why don't you sit down and post a proper rebuttal with any proof you can supply, instead of a childish rant?

I get the sentiment of the time worked, but if you're going to be selling them to someone else, I'd refund up to, but not including, that 40% non-refundable deposit (I poked around and found your TOS). Unfortunately, at least as far as this post is concerned, if you can't pony up a screenie showing they agreed to it, you're not gonna look good in the eyes of everyone else, so I hope you have learned to be more diligent about only talking commission stuff in email. Unless I'm mistaken, I think that's the only legally binding form of electronic
communication, but I may be wrong. But I knew there was something missing from the original post.

You also have to remember though, that there are honestly people who will let stuff, even stuff as insane as their suits falling apart or never completed, slide simply because they don't want confrontation or drama. Looking at some of your other posts here I can say I don't exactly blame them, you need to relax and sit back and think out your replies and make one big one rather than lashing out at everybody who is not 100% supporting you. Tell your side ( honestly) and leave it at that.

Hmm, I wonder who they are claiming that is. I've only sold one fullsuit before and I am good friends with him.

Also, I have only made about.. 3 heads of so, all for friends.
Not one of them have reported any issues. I always include a 1 year free warranty, so it isn't like they would be charged for repairs.

Not trying to be insulting but I'm curious. Did you finish the commission in a couple of months like you said you would? Did the OP pay you in full for the commission? Did you send updates to the OP after the livestream and picture?

Also you mentioned that you did not have a TOS in place when the OP commissioned you but after you accepted the commission you put one in place and asked the OP to honor the TOS, even when it was not in place at the time of commission. If you did not have it in place when you first accepted to build her crow's wings then your TOS is not binding at all in this case.

Show the community where you finished her commission, sent her a refund, or at least offered to do either of those things to prove your side instead of just saying that you are an honest business person.

Show us your proof. You are ranting and throwing a tantrum, not really proving you did not scam anyone. Show us screencaps, something to prove you are not what the OP claims you are.

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