Advice post

[familliaraver.livejournal.com]

Never thought I would post here! This is the most amazing epic debacle I've ever seen in my life, and I need some advice. Technically I got burned out of money I was supposed to be paid, but more importantly at this point an entire convention of people are being burned out of money. I would like to leave names out for now, I don't want to put people on blast but I can later depending on what happens.

Can someone open a paypal dispute on an intangible object they paid for past the dispute period, like 9 months ago? If it's a large group of people *100-200 people* that open up a dispute at the same time will it freeze their paypal or will it not matter because they bought tickets in some cases a very long time ago. The fear is them taking all the money and running and the goal is to stop it.

The deal is a convention that was supposed to be happening next weekend was cancelled. A week ago. How/why/who was at fault for the cancellation is up to interpretation. The fact is they didn't fill the room block the said they would. Eventually I will encourage everyone involved to post an A_B on these people for the sake of future dealers/artists/attendees.

Any advice I can take to these poor people who I'm pretty sure will have to fight tooth and nail to see any money back would be really appreciative.

Comments

[xisidereal.livejournal.com]

I think I know about which con this is, and I am sad to see it happen to so many people :<

[familliaraver.livejournal.com]

It's really disappointing. It gave me a sad.

[kerstin-orion.livejournal.com]

As this was written up as an advice post (with no proof), we are keeping the name of the convention out of it, so I'm screening this comment.

[growly.livejournal.com]

If there's any doubt in your mind they will send a timely refund, yes you should dispute it through Paypal. Conventions usually have a lot of publicly accessible info, right? The others should try legal action if they didn't pay by credit card (if they did pay with card, they could call their banks for a chargeback).

[familliaraver.livejournal.com]

That's true, they could call their own banks for a charge back. I didn't even think of that!

[skulldog.livejournal.com]

Yes, I'm pretty certain I've seen cases of intangible items being disputed out of the 45 day limit, and buyer getting money back before.

You need to contact Paypal and let them know the story (i.e you paid for use of space at an event that never happened, and no refund was given), calling will help get that done faster. If you can get a few people to all bring this up, Paypal will look into it as a whole.

That really sucks, hoping you guys can get every cent back.

[rtydmartel.livejournal.com]

Contact all the people who lost money and tell them that you're making a list to contact paypal about this and if they can help you by providing their info.

Make a nice list of names and contact info (their paypal email at least) and the money they each lost, yourself included.

Then, give paypal a phone call and inform them of what happened.

"There was this person who blah blah blah the convention/stuff we paid for was never provided blah blah blah there are [X number] persons besides myself who are missing roughly [X money] combined, I have a list if that would help, the person ran with the money, can we open a mass-dispute? What should we do blah blah blah."

Be ready to contact every person so that they also call/contact paypal if that's what is required to proceed.

[familliaraver.livejournal.com]

I think that is just what I will do. I have access to 100 percent of all pre-reg e-mail lists. I've been paid up +colateral to get paid back what they still owe so I'm not worried about me, I just want the attendees to get back what they deserve. They cancelled the convention like a week before it was supposed to happen.

[rtydmartel.livejournal.com]

Oh, good on you for doing this on behalf of all the other people instead of leaving them to fend for themselves, in that case!

Good luck with this.

[familliaraver.livejournal.com]

I was involved in registration so I feel a little responsible to pass along information that could help them get their money back. I can't just sit back and watch them get screwed over. Thanks for the advice!

[epiceternity.livejournal.com]

I've got a feeling that you/the group would have to take it to small claims court as so much time has pasted.
Also on the paperwork, did it have any mention of what happens in the event of cancellation of the convention?

[familliaraver.livejournal.com]

As far as my end is concerned (not an atendee but a contracted worker) there has been an offer of settlement on the contract but no response.

As far as the attendees are concerned, the convention has actually shut down their website. But what used to be on the rules page was

"Refunds will be given up until April 23rd, 2012. After April 23rd, 2012 NO refunds will be given, no exceptions.

Full refunds will be available up to 60 days after the date of purchase provided that it is not past April 23rd, 2012."

And they cancelled the convention on may 17th with the convention this weekend. That's what makes me think they did it on purpose. They had to have known this was gonna happen.

I'm gonna try and contact everyone over the next 3 days and give paypal time to work and then talk lawsuit. I think if the chairs see the people organize they will work harder to prevent any further losses. Right now I think they are probably thinking all of these people will just give up.

[epiceternity.livejournal.com]

hmmm, it does make it extremely difficult if you/ others basically signed a no refund contact, it will count a lot against you. However, it does also sound suspiciously scam worthy.
I think you could do with legal help on it if you can get it, esp with that no refund agreement. I don't know what the convention was or what your money was towards but if it was art related, then there are some place that do free legal help for artists-
http://www.starvingartistslaw.com/help/volunteer%20lawyers.htm
http://moolelo.net/2012/01/11/free-legal-services-for-artists-and-arts-organizations/
http://www.law-arts.org/
If it wasn't art related there may be some other places that offer something similar (i'm afraid I don't know any off the top of my head ^^)

[shukivengeance.livejournal.com]

I'd be interested in seeing if such a clause is actually legal in the first place tbh.

[pinkpuppybelly.livejournal.com]

I would like to know what con it was c_c

[shukivengeance.livejournal.com]

Since this was approved as an advice post and not a beware I'm personally a little uncomfortable with that last edit. If my fellow mods are fine with the name staying up I will submit to their judgement but as-is it feels a tad inappropriate to me to change an advice post into a beware via editing in identification after the fact. A seperate beware post would be legitimate with some supporting evidence provided imo.

[sigilgoat.livejournal.com]

I'm in agreement. This needs some proof before it becomes slanderous (I know, libel in print, blahblah).

If you wanted to name names, you really should have submitted this as a beware instead of an advice.

[oceandezignz.livejournal.com]

Thirded. Please submit a more official beware, OP!

[kerstin-orion.livejournal.com]

I hesitate to add to the mod pile, but I felt it necessary to add that yes, Shukivengeance is correct; by editing in the name of the offending party, you are essentially changing an advice post into a beware. As we require a significantly higher level of evidence for bewares, this edit is inappropriate.

Please remove the name of the convention from your post. If you wish to make a full beware, please submit a new post with dates and screenshots of evidence.

[oceandezignz.livejournal.com]

The same way you added the information to the post is the same way we need you to remove it. Via editing. We cannot edit the posts ourselves, as LJ's coding does allow for anyone else aside from the OP to change the content within.

[familliaraver.livejournal.com]

Ok fixed it!

[skanrashke.livejournal.com]

Something on this scale = legal action can actually, be sucessully performed. It's a last ditch thing, though. If the guys responsible won't refund, paypal won't refund, etc.. because the legal fees will probably eat all 100-200 people's $30 reg. You'd also need at least 20 other people to come foreward and say 'yeah, these guys swindled us'.

[familliaraver.livejournal.com]

You are totally right. And I didn't realize what direction this was going. I probably should have waited a few more weeks before jumping the gun. But I do appreciate the super helpful advice.

[zyumi.livejournal.com]

So it's been nearly 2 weeks since the con was to happen and there doesn't seem to be any word on refunds. I happen to have a personal connection to the con-chair, and I'm extremely worried about her, but rather than dealing with this situation with transparency she is going to more anime cons. Please let us updated on the situation. I'm going to try to contact my friend and find out what she is doing to resolve this issue. At this point if she doesn't refund this money she risks being indited for fraud, which could mean jail time.

[familliaraver.livejournal.com]

There have been a handful of people who have gotten partial refunds through paypal, maybe the 20-25 people who bought badges late enough and figured out what was going on early enough to do something about it.. for whatever reason I'm happy something happened. I could right a novel about what I think about her but that is neither here nor there.

Information has been sparse from the remaining people (person now I guess) involved. The problem is....my hands are tied. I really shouldn't have said anything at all about the situation and in hindsight I should have not put them on blast like this if I wasn't willing to lay down some solid evidence. I was just really dumb and angry (40 hours making badges will do that). Maybe I can turn these 3 thousand badges into a cool art installation or a chandelier for my bedroom. I doubt they will ever pay for them. I will try my best to make something positive out of this and this post was at least helpful to bring my brain back into reality about it all.

[zyumi.livejournal.com]

I think at this point it was a good thing you came forward about this situation. I'm starting to fear that things will have to get legal before the situation is addressed. The only reason that the people thus far have refunds is because of Pay Pal and not Ultimacon directly.

I can tell you that the con-chair is planning on going to a large Texas anime con this month, and I worry that her refusal to address this situation before this next con will be very detrimental to her. You put in a lot of time and effort into a con that never took place, and I can understand your frustration and anger about the situation. I do think that if the situation isn't resolved, it might be a good idea to release the name of the con. As for the thousands of badges that are still in your position, I'd be interested to see what you come up with to utilize them.

[familliaraver.livejournal.com]

Ha, it doesn't matter if she chooses to address the situation because the situation will address her, and it is. People are getting refunds; even people who paid past the time frame you supposedly can get refunds. Paypal actually will just keep refunding people and her account will keep going in the red and they will freeze anything attached to the paypal account. When people talk to paypal about refunds and after a month the seller doesn't address the problem they are refunded. I know this because, well, I just do. I can't tell you how I know that I would rather just say it's heresay..it's not like I can see her transactions or something lol. How could I possibly see those?

I don't know why she chose to fire her entire staff. Firing the entire staff doesn't take their name off contracts. I don't know how she made it through that certain Texas convention without being burned at the stake. I guess that there is either enough people that care about her or enough people who don't care at all. I also know she is a good person. Sending out sporadic e-mails to artists and attendees at random isn't really cutting it, or trying to stall everyone into not asking for their money back. Whatever.

follow up

[zyumi.livejournal.com]

This situation still has not been resolved nearly 5 months after the event was suppose to take place. The people who have been robbed are filing a suit with the Attorney General of the state it took place in. I can post the new cast about this but it releases the name at the con. At this point though, it's past an advice post

Re: follow up

[familliaraver.livejournal.com]

When I wrote the beware I was kind of laying in a pile of badges and pretty super angry. It's not a class action lawsuit yet and I'm trying my best to gather anyone who might still have an outstanding refund due, but there are so many artists and dealers it's impossible to find them all. The registration end of it, well, let's just say first year events aren't going to get services so easy anymore.

If you do happen to know any artists,dealers or attendees that haven't filed their paperwork with the attorney general hit up the Facebook page or note me for emails. I know they read this and they know who I am, that's fine. I'm not here to start drama.

Re: follow up

[familliaraver.livejournal.com]

If you want to put them on blast in a seperate post and you lost money/willing to post screenshots;do it

Re: follow up

[zyumi.livejournal.com]

I was not directly involved in the con. I just happen to know the woman involved and was going to attend. I think at this point you should post a new entry on here with the names and the links to the fb comm and the news report.

Re: follow up

[familliaraver.livejournal.com]

I can't do that. Your friend should come here with screenshots and PayPal receipts as well as information for others that may not know what's going on because the website and forum is shut down. I wasn't directly out money. I was essentially paid for what I did by who I work for, not anyone directly involved with the production of the event. Like I was outsourced. The persons or people that are above me aren't really keen on giving up any information so I'm gagged in so many words.

Either way I wouldn't have access to lists of dealers and artists still owed money because that information wasn't really released to me. It's funny tho even other local conventions are getting blowback from this. They have had to come out and be like hey, we weren't involved in this!