Commissioner Beware: Touya_Vulpes

[ritz-bitz25.livejournal.com]

WHO: I am an artist that goes by Ritz_Bitz on FA. I was commissioned by Touya_Vulpes on FA.

WHERE: During my livestream art session.

WHAT: I was livestreaming $10 shaded headshots done traditionally. People could have them laminated and mailed for $1 more. He was the first to order and got his art that night. 2 days later, on December 5th, I recieved an email that the funds were on hold and I needed to take action in the resolution center. I responded saying "He got his art that night, its intangible goods but he has the file already so I cannot offer a refund". Today, the 19th, I got an email saying the payment was reversed and given back to him. Turns out I'm not covered as a seller of goods unless the item is shipped, so he was able to make a claim he never recieved it and I lost my case because I couldn't ship this intangible good.

WHEN: Livestream took place on December 3rd and he recieved his art the same night.

PROOF:





EXPLAIN: When the hold was placed, I was confused but figured something wasnt verified with his account or such. I didn't contact him at this point, I answered the case in the resolution center and waited. Today I got an email that the payment was reversed, and I saw that the $10 had been sent back to him from my account. Upset and irritated, I noted him about it and he said "Oh I've been having issues with paypal for the past couple weeks. I don't know what it is." I told him he needed to resend the money or I was gonna delete the art and go through paypal for a resolution. He acted slightly irritated, saying "*sigh* fine just delete the art". I already completed the work, so obviously I wanted to be paid for it. I called paypal and spoke with their customer service.
It turns out he filed the claim that he never got what he paid for, and I had no defense with it being 'intangible goods' that I did not ship. This is why I lost the case.


I DID get my money back, however I am extremely displeased with the way the commissioner acted, trying to get his money AND have the art. He has been blacklisted now and I have changed my commission policy to having all the work I do shipped out so I can protect myself.

Comments

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[tealmoonxiv.livejournal.com]

Correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't art be covered if you marked "services" rather than "goods"? (in the case of digital or un-shipped art)

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[ashleyvsdestiny.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I don't get how it's 'intangable'. It's not like PayPay is never used to pay for SERVICES as well as goods. I'm really puzzled how this 'intangable' thing works and no one on AB has ever reported issues like that.

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[oceandezignz.livejournal.com]

If I remember from the Regretsy Incident during Christmastime last year, Paypal has a ruleset. But the ruleset can be interpreted differently by the CSRs and that's "okay". Of course, after the internet flipped its proverbial wig at this incident, policy may or may not have changed.

This is only an idle observation at that.

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[ritsukaao.livejournal.com]

Say what now? I recall a thing called "Regretsy" but never heard of any incidents regarding it. Do you have the details on this or a link to the story?

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[lackoflollies.livejournal.com]

tl;dr Someone had a donation drive to get children presents, and paypal shut her down and took ALL of it, until the internet flipped its shit.

http://www.regretsy.com/2012/03/12/paypal-does-it-again/

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[ritsukaao.livejournal.com]

Are you kidding me? WTF is Paypal's problem?! I've dealt with their crap before and no longer use them personally due to this crap but damn, that's asining.

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[snapcat.livejournal.com]

This is due to someone taking in donations. In every country, in every state, there are rules about soliciting, receiving and distributing donations. If this person was acting as a non profit or not for profit, most likely their funds were put on hold so they could provide correct paperwork for legal reasons. This would include any articles of incorporation, Secretary of State docs and/or IRS docs showing they are registered at some government level as a non profit. When you see stories like this, they tend to leave out the 'why' as to what happened. goes along with you cant believe everything you see on the net

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[ritsukaao.livejournal.com]

Paypal's TOS states the "Donate" button can be used my anyone, not just non-profits. I can see how there might be paperwork to be done with such a large sum of money HOWEVER Paypal was still collecting their fees on money that may or may not be, in Paypal's eyes, a non-profit.

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[snapcat.livejournal.com]

You are correct. PayPal is a business and they collect fees on every transaction. Even the big non profits pay 2.2% opposed to the standard 2.9%.
When a donation button is placed and funds are received via others using it, PayPal's compliance department assesses each situation differently. If its an artist's tip jar, usually its left alone. If they say they are raising money for cancer research, thats when paperwork has to be requested. Plus if the paypal account owner upgrades to a business account and selects that they are a non-profit account then paperwork is asked for. I worked for PayPal for 3 years dealing with issues just like this. I also was one to freeze people's accounts and tell them their money was held for 180 days. I know what I am talking about.

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[ritsukaao.livejournal.com]

This is one of the few cases I've heard of this: The Alzheimer's donation drive and the toys for kids drive. I'm sure this was a case by case judgement that ended badly for the person running the drive. However, why would they close the personal account of the person? It has no bearing on the "business" account yet they closed it anyway. No snark but how can you explain that?

Do you believe that Paypal has done wrong in this case?

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[snapcat.livejournal.com]

When Hurricane Katrina happened in 2005, so may people set up accounts soliciting donations for those in need. A lot of the accounts were fake set up by scammers to make a lot of money quickly. They pocketed the $ and those in need never got it. This is when the government stepped in requiring all payment processors to ensure legitimacy of those soliciting donations. To make sure PayPal is following government regulations, sometimes accounts need to be put on temporary holds to complete the compliance process. Most accounts can still receive donations while the paperwork is being handled. Some, if receiving thousands in a short amount of time, need to be completely paused.
Its the same story.. due to some scammers and bad people, now those wishing to do GOOD for others are regulated.

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[ritsukaao.livejournal.com]

Wouldn't it make sense in both legitimate and scam accounts to freeze the account AND block any further donations? I mean, Paypal can only collect more money on a frozen account that is still receiving money while the both scammers and legit people can only watch from the sidelines.

I actually forgot about the Katrina incident, my bad.

eta: Also, they mostly freeze them in the thousands, what about scammers only in the hundreds?

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[snapcat.livejournal.com]

we can play 'what if' all day.
I think I explained it well enough :)

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[ljmydayaway.livejournal.com]

Uhh... did you actually look at the link(s) on Regretsy? She didn't leave out anything. This was a huge event last year. She provided Paypal with everything, and they screwed her over left and right, and finally decided, "Yea, you've given us everything we requested, but... I don't care. Bye!" And tried to run away with her money.

... Until the internet jumped down their throat and thousands of people suddenly started closing their accounts.

Now Regretsy uses WePay, an excellent alternative that I also use (due to incidents not related to Regretsy). :P I actually do suggest people start using WePay more, because it's a lot simpler than Paypal, people don't have to sign up in order to pay (with their credit card), and the customer service agents don't appear to be opinionated jerks.

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[snapcat.livejournal.com]

Nice ad for WePay, don't you think? ;)

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[oceandezignz.livejournal.com]

Okay time to freeze.

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[snapcat.livejournal.com]

Its all about the Seller Protection PayPal itself offers. If the seller loses money due to a returned bank payment or even a chargeback, if the seller has tracking information showing delivery to the provided and confirmed Buyer's shipping address, then PayPal will cover the seller for the loss out of their own pocket. In the case of emailed or intangible goods, they choose not to cover these items.

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[ritsukaao.livejournal.com]

I have never heard of Paypal covering a chargeback/returned bank payment out of their own pocket EVER. Even when I've provided shipping confirmation to Paypal for something I shipped, the buyer still insisted they never got it so issued they a chargeback. I was out 40 dollars until I raised hell and high water but Paypal just ripped it back out of the buyer's account, they didn't pay out of their pockets.

I've also been told by a representative of Paypal that they cover goods like digital art as long as the seller corresponded in email and can provide those emails to Paypal if need be. I bet if I called back though, I'd get a completely different rep that will say something different. That's the problem with Paypal, they don't even know their rules/TOS.

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[snapcat.livejournal.com]

When you have a chargeback filed against you, as long as you have tracking information showing that your buyer received the package to the shipping address paypal provided you, you will win your case. You do have to go through the appeals process which can take up to 75 days. Its the way payment processing is whether you go through PayPal, Square or your local bank's services.
What you were told about emails is wrong. Emails can be faked so PayPal does not accept them as proof.
Its up to the CSR whether to make a person wait for the appeals process or issue a credit to the seller's account out of their own pocket. If its a customer service issue and the rep wants to help ya out, they will just toss up to $100 in your account. Its a matter of how NICE and PROFESSIONAL people are when calling in.
I worked for PayPal in fraud and with issues such as this for 3 years. I know what I am talking about.

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[ritsukaao.livejournal.com]

Then it's a flawed system don't you think? One CSR can completely throw someone under the bus because of how THEY interpret the rules but another CSR can fork over 100 bucks to please a frustrated customer. I must be talking to the wrong CSR because no matter how polite/patient/professional I am, I always get told too bad unless I harp on it. In fact, the story I mentioned they finally caved and pretty begged me to stop calling and they would refund me right away with the seller's Paypal.

I actually have a worse horror story of Paypal involving someone wracking up purchases on my account without my permission (like identity theft with my Paypal) and Paypal told me it's not their problem. That's another long story though that I'll save for another day.

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[snapcat.livejournal.com]

Sure. People aren't robots and can't adhere to a strict rule book no matter how well they are trained. There are idiot co-workers and awesome problem solvers at any job.

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[ljmydayaway.livejournal.com]

It's called firing people who can't abide by the rules, OR at least involving more than one customer service rep. It's not hard to do. Really.

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[snapcat.livejournal.com]

Think of any idiots you worked with that did the bare minimum to get by. How long did it take them to get fired... if at all?

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[oceandezignz.livejournal.com]

Please stop namecalling. It is against comunity policy, even in cases of hypothetical people. It is not okay.

This is your warning.