(no subject)

[0acorn0.livejournal.com]

WHO:  Kee/Kyme/Inarolyn/Iaz/Janks/Len/Neicom


WHERE:  http://www.furaffinity.net/user/kee (all the above are also FA accounts that she has hopped between, but Kee is her current).

WHAT: Tracing. Most of the traces are partial and have been "frankensteined".


WHEN: This has been going on for awhile from what I have been able to figure.

EXPLAIN: Again, I was asked to post this here by several people after compiling multiple instances of her tracing of recent. A lot of people felt a public warning should be made, since she jumps accounts quite frequently. She's also traced several times in the past, but I haven't been able to locate the originals.


As an example, this is art from five-six months ago that she drew while living with me:
http://i44.tinypic.com/jzodv.jpg
http://i41.tinypic.com/jgo415.jpg
http://i43.tinypic.com/jt5hj5.png
She's never traced while living with me because I had gotten onto her in the past for copying other artists.


These are the traces I've found evidence of:
First example:
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/6820740/
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/6820732/    [NSFW]
Traced from:
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/6595400/ [NSFW]
Overlay:
http://i44.tinypic.com/s1kksm.jpg    [NSFW]



Second example:
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/6894553/
Traced from:
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/6577848/    [NSFW]
Overlay:
http://i42.tinypic.com/25r1sh1.png   [NSFW]



Third example:
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/6898927
Traced from:
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/6703170/
Overlay:
http://i39.tinypic.com/otfbcw.jpg
http://i41.tinypic.com/34r617b.jpg




Fourth example:
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/6898413
Traced from:
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/6057168/
Overlay:
http://i42.tinypic.com/fljxvr.jpg
http://i41.tinypic.com/14m5abk.jpg



Fifth example:
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/6898388
Traced from:
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/6789179/
Overlay:
http://i42.tinypic.com/2ppzyx4.jpg



Sixth example:
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/6807846/
Traced from:
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/5060030/
Overlay:
http://i42.tinypic.com/yyp01.jpg

Edit:
Got shown these ones last night:
Seventh example:
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/6898399   [NSFW]
Traced from:
http://i42.tinypic.com/aekvg5.png     [NSFW]
Overlays:
http://i41.tinypic.com/ohis69.jpg   [NSFW]
http://i42.tinypic.com/2a7v9c4.png    [NSFW]
http://i42.tinypic.com/wsw93q.png    [NSFW]

Eighth example:
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/6811551/
Traced from:
http://i40.tinypic.com/zupcli.png     [NSFW]
Overlays:
http://i44.tinypic.com/350nrxh.jpg     [NSFW]
http://i44.tinypic.com/1042nn6.jpg    [NSFW]
http://i44.tinypic.com/kdx5b8.jpg   [NSFW]




Almost all the traces have been of artists whom she's watching, the only exception being my own art.


Suspected traces:
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/6852690/       [NSFW]
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/6898425/    [NSFW]
http://i44.tinypic.com/xdruq0.jpg (from 2010)       [NSFW]
http://i42.tinypic.com/14kifzn.jpg (from 2010)     [NSFW]

There were a few others that were TCBY commissions that I am certain were traced, but I never saved the files.



As is evidenced, her anatomy flipflops from really well done, to filled with errors. If anyone can provide originals for some of the suspected traces, it'd be appreciated as well. NO ONE improves that greatly in a five month period, drawing as rarely as she does. I don't think everything she uploads/draws is traced, but much of it is.

Edit: Here's some more overlays with varying opacity's to give a clearer idea of where the lines are a perfect match.
http://i44.tinypic.com/206fmvt.jpg
http://i42.tinypic.com/2s9alas.jpg
http://i43.tinypic.com/2gw7v3o.jpg  [nsfw]
http://i43.tinypic.com/1j9nit.jpg   [nsfw]

Edit2:
I'm redacting my allegations of tracing, as I really don't want to be involved in any drama with this person to start with.


Edit3: I'm sorry, to make it more clear, I am retracting my allegations as there isn't sufficient evidence of tracing going on. I have posted apologies here and on FA.



Fixed overlays with proper aspect ratio:
http://i44.tinypic.com/rhj09f.jpg

Here it is in 3 different colors, still matching in the same areas. (I rotated it quickly, so it's not the exact same as the other overlays, but I'm too tired to redo all this again just to be perfect for the naysayers).
http://i39.tinypic.com/r0vw4h.jpg
http://i43.tinypic.com/de6ycw.jpg
http://i43.tinypic.com/mil4kh.jpg



http://i40.tinypic.com/nvnzx4.jpg

http://i43.tinypic.com/15i9g8j.png

There is no WAY any of the above have been distorted, as I did use the shift key as I was told.

Comments

[0acorn0.livejournal.com]

I didn't insult the artist in my apology, neither here nor on FA, so I don't get where you're seeing this from.

I've provided new overlays (with fixed aspect ratio), and they are still being tossed out the window with "it's just SIMILAR", disregarding the fact that it's a perfect match. I do feel as if it's being wrongfully disregarded.

I honestly don't know what else to do or say because it's incredibly frustrating. I went to great lengths to properly fix the overlays and to respond to most of the posters here who are dissenting.

Even if it's only one part of the image, it's still a partial trace and shouldn't be discounted. Don't tracers usually go after areas that they repeatedly have problems with? In all these cases, it's the same area, the waistline/hips/torso. And artists DO have different styles for drawing torsos, so those who are saying that everyone draws torsos the exact same is using faulty logic, because everyone has their stylistic choices and what they perceive as beauty.

[ocelotish]

There will always be a few matching lines even with just 1:1 scale and rotate, and I don't think you get that. You have two points - the bottom hip and the waist. Find any similar picture and scale it in the same aspect ratio, and rotate it and you will find overlap whether or not the artist has seen the image in question. This is particularly true in a broad curve like the hips and waist. Your image proves little if anything.

[ocelotish]

Yeah, and that's fine, but there's a difference between believing it deep down, and bad-mouthing a community because they didn't see it. If you knew that a few lines aren't sufficient- regardless of gut feeling- there wouldn't be nearly 300 comments arguing about this, nor would there have been those nasty comments in your journal.

[spiffystuff.livejournal.com]

So.... were they a perfect match when they were distorted or a perfect match now?

You seem to think they line up "perfectly" even when they are different.

[0acorn0.livejournal.com]

As I've repeatedly said, I didn't even notice the distortion.

I've admitted that the Ajna one is not a match and has been debunked.

The Dipper one of the girl sitting from the side also doesn't match perfectly, and either was a trace that was changed up to be harder to catch, or heavily referenced.

The hips/waist/rib off of my drawing still match completely, as well as the far shoulder , stomach/waist and ass off of one of Dipper's

[littlecatnap.livejournal.com]

I've just finished reading all of this entry and all of these comments aaaand I'm on the fence about the whole it's a trace/it's not a trace BUT I read this comment by Acorn on Acorn's FA journal and it just rubbed me the wrong way.

"Apparently, the A_B community feels it isn't sufficient evidence and that I should apologize. "

The apology is sounding less sincere and more "People are telling me I'm wrong so I'm going to say I'm sorry to make them go away."

That's just my opinion though because it's hard to judge sincerity over the internet.

[0acorn0.livejournal.com]

Someone asked why I apologized, that's why. I don't know how else to say it, because I still don't feel that I am wrong. There's too many matches for it to be pure coincidence.

[jakejynx.livejournal.com]

Acorn's talking about the last three images in this particular post. You're talking about the last three artists posted about.

[anjel-kitty.livejournal.com]

Ahaha yeah... I guess that did get a big convoluted.

[ocelotish]

You are making a serious accusation, and one that is apparently largely unfounded. That is a lot worse than calling someone a nasty name.

You have provided evidence, most people here have looked at it and said it does not line up perfectly and there is not enough area overlapping to make a determination of tracing. You a disregarding multiple opinions by other artists who don't have a dog in this fight.

Your response is just yelling at us about how well they line up, when we don't see it. That's not exactly a constructive dialogue you got going, coupled with the nasty passive-aggressive comments you've mad on FA.

Artists do go for areas where they have problems, but I have never seen an artist where they need the most help on waist and hip as they are simple, especially in the manner in which they're drawn here. While there will be some differences stylistically, they are far more consistent in this type of art then they are in say, Beauty and the Beast where the character have wildly different proportions and body type. When doing a similar body type in a similar style (what's happening here) there will be a fair amount of overlap, even when in a different pose, let alone a similar one.

[shukivengeance.livejournal.com]

Apparently, the statement of one person, maybe two tops, is everyone's opinion despite this community having thousands of members. The apology part I mean, not that this entry has insufficient evidence.

I could not care less whether Acorn apologises or not just because someone said she should. I'm not a fan of insincerity. To me, an apology is worthless unless the person is doing it because they mean it, not because it was forced out of them.

[joanmichele.livejournal.com]

Criticism, valid criticism, mind you, does not equal insults.

(frozen comment)

[anjel-kitty.livejournal.com]

Who is responsible for the naked female furry in the war bonnet? that's pretty tacky and culturally insensitive, given the fact women never wore war bonnets, and its pretty disgusting to have it culturally appropriated by hipsters let alone furry artists.

http://nativeappropriations.blogspot.com/2010/04/but-why-cant-i-wear-hipster-headdress.html

(frozen comment)

[kerstin-orion.livejournal.com]

Granted, the subject matter may potentially be offensive, but that is a very off-topic discussion for this post and this community, so I am freezing this thread.

[shukivengeance.livejournal.com]

You are free to think of it as "valid criticism" but that does not make you correct.

[joanmichele.livejournal.com]

I've been watching this case for a while now, and I agreed that the traces are there. While it is possible that the lines matching up in one or two of the images could be attributed to coincidences, there is enough gathered in here that it would be disingenuous at best and maliciously dishonest at worst to dismiss the claim outright.

I find it quite suspicious that this case has been dismissed outright, when in the past this community had been partaking in witch-burning parties for things that match up far less. It is my policy with regards to tracing that if it's possible to manipulate the drawings to match up via resizing and rotating, then the possibility is there. These two things lead me to believe that this community's decision to blow the whistle on certain artists who trace seems to be predicated upon who did the reporting, or that the people responding dismissively in this post seems to have a vested interest in doing so. Perhaps to avoid being accused of the same using similar methods of overlay?

I wish I could say that i am disappointed in this community, but such hypocrisy like this seems to be on par for the course nowadays, if there's anything to the reports I have been hearing about this community.

[ocelotish]

Excuse me? Are you suggesting that everyone here looked at the OP and the artist, then conspired about whether or not we were going to believe the OP or not?

I have not dismissed this claim without considering it fully, and giving my reasons. It is my professional opinion that the pieces may have been referenced, but not traced due to how little they line up and which areas are copied, based on the idea that there are essentially 2 curves per piece that could be lined up, and that you can do with resizing. In my opinion the curves do not line up as well as the OP claims. In addition, while tracing torsos is still tracing and should be treated the same way as tracing anything else, it seems odd to that the torso were traced when the head, feet, and hands were not according to the OP (except maybe one foot in the whole batch). Based on my experience as an artist, the torso is one of the easiest parts to get to look right, and is one of the easier parts to line up on unrelated images (especially when the images have so little detail there). In addition, some of these images were distorted in order to fit the images in question better.

If I have given two different opinions when it comes to tracing, please show me, make my day. If not, realize this community is not a monolith and there will be different people with different opinions posting on different entries.

[joanmichele.livejournal.com]

No, I am suggesting that the most vocally dismissives are the ones conspiring.

Two of the examples have three points of lining up on the same source image no less, and it's not just the torso in those cases.

[ocelotish]

You're suggesting that I, someone without an FA account period, was one of the ones conspiring because I was vocal about it?

Which ones are they because some were further distorted by the OP? Are they the images that were distorted?

[0acorn0.livejournal.com]

I redid and posted several overlays at the bottom of the OP that are NOT distorted (since I was told how the shift key works here) that show matching shoulders, waists/stomach/hips, etc.

[ocelotish]

Yes, I know, but I don't know which ones joanmichele is referring to as the non-distorted ones you posted all seem to deal with the torso.

[otherscape.livejournal.com]

There are a few reasons why this case isn't as credible as the others.

1) In one previous case, the tracer admitted to tracing right on the spot. Had this person not done this, I would probably have maintained the stance of those just being a bizarre style coincidence, and those were far more damning than these.

2) Acorn apparently has some sort of history with Kee, which means there could have been a grudge element to this. Acorn keeps saying that she doesn't want to cause drama, yet that's really all she's been causing by continuously posting here, which makes it seem even more grudgy. Plus her reaction to this post is not reflecting well on her either. I'd love to say that Acorn having a grudge doesn't matter, but based on her reactions, I can't say it wasn't part of her motive.

3) The distortions. This threw out half of Acorn's evidence, if not more. Plus I'm not entirely convinced they were an accident. Even though the ones that do supposedly match don't match line for line, they just go in a general direction. Unless the art matches exactly or the person admits that they traced, it's a really bad idea to just accuse someone of tracing.

Could Kee have traced? Yes, but there isn't good evidence, so no one can say for sure.

[0acorn0.livejournal.com]

I don't have much to say to 1 as I can see your point.

2) I hadn't spoken to or about her in weeks. The day I returned from suspension, she posted something that looked incredibly like my featured submission of the time, which is what prompted me to go through the gallery. I put off posting here for quite a bit and only did so at the bequest of other artists and watchers.

3) While it may be hard to believe, I didn't know anything about the shift key preserving ratios or notice it was distorted. I even went back and redid the overlays for a few to show that they STILL matched up in several areas with a preserved ratio.

I realize it isn't the best of evidence, since it's still only partial traces and not entire pieces, but I would think the fact that there are so many that just HAPPEN to match up with several pieces of art by other people is no coincidence.

[ocelotish]

You have shown that three or four maybe kind of line up in the redone overlays. Do you really expect me to believe that they were the only ones you tried?

[littlecatnap.livejournal.com]

So you felt you were wrong when you posted in an earlier comment, "I want to thank you all for helping me to see I was wrong", about two hours ago and now you don't feel wrong anymore? Okay then.