(RESOLVED!) Need Advice: Feeling Held Hostage

[velux.livejournal.com]

EDIT 4/6/12: After contacting the maker privately, we have come to a compromise and an agreement on how to handle this. Thank you everyone for your help!

(Reposted because of derp while editing to add the LJ Cut requested along with a link to pics of the faults >.<  If you posted advice on the original, please post again! Thank you so much!)

I need some advice in a situation where I've felt held hostage by a very well-known fursuit maker I commissioned. Unfortunately, hope seems very bleak at this point, despite everyone I've mentioned the situation to (friends and new, curious acquaintances alike) feeling as though I'm in the clear here.





I commissioned them for a partial fursuit, the deal made official on January 23, 2011.  I paid the down payment immediately, and completed payment on time.  The partial was to be done and in my hands for Anthrocon 2011, June 23-26.  She contacted me on June 7, noting she may not be on track to have the wings completed in time for the convention, as was legally contracted. She promised she would have them done within a month or two after the convention.  They were never started to this day.

She sent out the rest of it though, and it arrived on time.  I wore the costume a total of 7 times: 1 time for literally a couple of minutes when I first got it, 3 outings at Anthrocon, 1 bowling outing, 1 time for smaller meet, and 1 time for Halloween. Over those few times, many issues came to light, starting from the first time I pulled it on - when one of the armsleeves' hems pulled apart with minimal force.  Aside from that, the tail was made on 1 belt loop, preventing me from using the rear belt loop on any pants, the back of the space between thumb and index finger on the right glove wore through largely, she failed to hem the ends of either the gloves or arms (the latter of which frayed badly until I had to pull another friend away from last minute suit work at the con hotel to fix for me), she used black thread on non-fur yellow fabric, the beak was left unsealed which caused the fur to stick tot he bare paint with even minimal, non-excessive heat, and most dumbfounding of all, she built both footpaws on the same side shoe/slipper.

I tried rolling with it, trying to convince myself that it was okay and I could live with it, especially with the hefty investment, but the buildup of surprising mistakes and lack of quality forced me to contact her about it on November 1, 2011.  After a few emails negotiating a course of action, including first being apologetic, then surprisingly lashing out at me several times, before we both came to an agreement for me to send the costume back to her (from the U.S. to New Zealand), at which time she would provide me a full refund minus the deposit. This agreement was reached on November 26, 2011, to which I got the reply "Okay sure, I'll pay it back as the money comes into my Paypal account."

I sent the package on December 12, 2011 following a small delay due to college finals, providing a photo of my receipt and customs form.  Only then did she inform me she was leaving the country for a month.  The package did not make it in time, and the package was lost in the mail while I waited for a response of her return and confirmation whether or not it arrived while she was gone.  I had to contact her on February 6, 2012 to find out, the result being no package there, and no return to me.  I waited a few days to see if it was taking some time to arrive back here, until I contacted USPS and opened an official inquiry with USPS and the new Zealand Post at the end of February.  I received the package back here on March 17, 2012, and opened the package to confirm its condition (the box had been minorly squished), and took photos of the aforementioned damages, as well as for verification that there were no additional damages.  I repackaged the suit as I did the last time (which survived technically 2 trips - there AND back), and sent the suit a second time (following confirmation she would be around this time) on March 22, 2012, again providing a photo of the receipt and customs form.

I Proceeded to warn her the day before and the day of the beginning of the range USPS guaranteed its delivery.  She didn't respond to my emails, so I noted her on FurAffinity of she had received my emails. She responded on March 31, 2012 that she had, and that the package had arrived.  She said it was her birthday so she was taking the day off, and would respond the next day or the day after  that "I'll let you know what's up in my email."

This morning, April 3, I got her email with this reply:

Dear Velux,

I received the suit, and I cannot issue a refund.  The wear, damage, and smell on this suit show that you've used it heavily.  I will gladly refund the cost of making the wings ($200), since they have not been completed.  I'll also be happy to fix the mistake with the feet.  That said, I cannot offer any further compensation for what is clearly a very used suit.  You've raised some concerns about the quality of the suit, but this is only after extensive usage.  You raved about it when it you got it on FA.  If it was as bad as you've since claimed, you should have brought it up before wearing it.  It would be like asking for a refund for a car that you've driven all around the country.  I'd be glad to do repairs, but it will carry a cost.

Furthermore, I have images posted of you smoking in the suit.  No matter what produces the smoke, it will always damage garments.  This alone is reason for me to not issue a refund.  I cannot turn around and sell this suit.  It would be impossible to remove the smells.  Also, the method you used to package the suit and send it to me was far from ideal and resulted in what I assume is additional damage.  Regardless of the poor packaging, the wear of the suit alone is enough to make it so it cannot be sold.

I'll make photos of the damage so we can have a record.  I'll repair the feet and ship it back to you.  Thank you for your understanding.

Sincerely,
~[Maker]

The problems with her logic, however are this:
"You've raised some concerns about the quality of the suit, but this is only after extensive usage ... It would be like asking for a refund for a car that you've driven all around the country."
If a suit isn't made correctly in the first place, what would normally not wear, or wear very minorly will look 10x worse than on a quality costume.  And with how much I've worn the suit, it's like I got the car for a test drive for half a day (if that).

"Furthermore, I have images posted of you smoking in the suit.  No matter what produces the smoke, it will always damage garments."
Yes, I smoked in the suit.  However, the only thing I have been pictured smoking in it, and have smoked in it strictly, is hookah.  Hookah smoke is produced by a coal cooking tobacco or tea herbs in a bowl that is then vigorously filtered through water - it is 95% or more water vapor, and the scent left by it (if any) is perfumey due to the flavorings used. There's nothing damaging about it.  I know there are a large amount of suiters out there who've smoked hookah in their fursuits, and they can confirm what I'm saying.  As for the scent she complained about, the only scent left on it was that of the dryer sheets I kept in the costume - which both leave their own scent, as well as absorb moisture and smells that could damage the suit.  What she smells is actually form PREVENTING foul scent and damage to the costume.

"Also, the method you used to package the suit and send it to me was far from ideal and resulted in what I assume is additional damage."
The method I used to package the costume was the exact same way I sent it the first time, and it was 100% fine the first trip halfway around the world, as well as the trip back. I find it hard to believe there would be a drastic difference the third time suddenly.  I have photos from when it was returned and I checked its condition, so I'd love to see if anything's changed.

"Regardless of the poor packaging, the wear of the suit alone is enough to make it so it cannot be sold."
A-ha.  So her motivation was to resell it.  It's funny, because I have an email from her here where she denied that was why she wanted the costume back:
  >On Nov 8, 2011, at 7:04 PM, [Maker] wrote:
    >The materials will not be coming back to me to be used

So she lied to my face to get it into her possession. That sounds really fishy and bothers the heck out of me. It makes me wonder if she was planning to deny the refund the entire time. [OP Edit: It appears as if this part was a misunderstanding/miscommunication in wording or something]

In either event, despite her shoddy logic, she's holding me up for my $1200 refund on my $1700 unfinished suit that she already agreed to, knowing the damages (mind you, following nearly $200 of shipping I had to shell out, bringing me to losing nearly $2K).  I honestly don't want repairs. With the quality this maker has shown, it will only fall apart again, and I'll be stuck once again with a suit I've invested two thousand dollars in that I won't be able to wear.

I've been very reluctant to make this public (which is why I'm doing my best to not name names), but I'm at a loss as to what to do at this point.  I can't draw worth a crap, and fursuiting is really the only thing I have to actively participate in and give to the fandom - something that frankly means a lot to me.  The past half year without one has been incredibly difficult for me, wanting to participate in and do something for the fandom, but not being able to. I hoped to inspire other suiters out there to boost their performance, thanks to my prior experience as a nationally-ranking college mascot (I definitely know a thing or two about costumed performance, as well as the suits).  But now I'm left with nothing.  What do I do? What can I do?

EDIT: Here's a gallery of the damages. Again, this is after only 7 times wearing the costume.
EDIT 2: Here are additional caps to show there's nothing in the maker's TOS that forbids smoking in her costumes or renders them unusable/unrefundable

Comments

[sigilgoat.livejournal.com]

Approving this re-post. While attempting to edit with a link to the gallery of damages, the post was lost.

The OP has specifically requested they do not wish to name names at this time. Please do not post links or information about the suit maker. Comments including this information will be screened.

[xisidereal.livejournal.com]

Alright, thank you so much for adding the pictures too - yeah, that is beyond appalling :<

Seven cons? There is no way that should have happened - that suit is falling apart!!

I would definitely be trying to reach some sort of agreement, but unfortunately with that maker, I've heard a lot of folks having similar issues with quality.

[velux.livejournal.com]

Re-read that. 1 con with 3 periods of suiting.

[xisidereal.livejournal.com]

Yeah I have literally no idea where I pulled seven from XD

I remember seeing you at AC, that's so disappointing, it looked like such a great concept!

[velux.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it's hard when visually it appears pretty good, but underlying issues pop up in the infrastructure/out of view. =\

[shukivengeance.livejournal.com]

If there was an agreement for a full refund minus the deposit she should have honoured it, and not letting you know that she was leaving the country when you were sending the item (at cost, I assume) is extremely unprofessional.

However there are a few points of your own I disagree with.

"Yes, I smoked in the suit. However, the only thing I have been pictured smoking in it, and have smoked in it strictly, is hookah.
If any item smells of something that it shouldn't, then especially when it comes to resale, that counts as damage. It doesn't matter if it's a smell that you like, or one that's not *quite* as obnoxious as others (like cat pee or something). It still detracts from the condition and therefore value of the item.

"A-ha. So her motivation was to resell it."
This isn't really much of an 'A-ha' moment since it's rather obvious. In order to refund you, recouping some of the cost has to come from somewhere. Reselling an item when the customer no longer wants it is common.

From looking at pictures of the suit I can't help but wonder if the seller is new to making these because the crafting seems... inexperienced?

[shukivengeance.livejournal.com]

Probably from "EDIT: Here's a gallery of the damages. Again, this is after only 7 times wearing the costume."

[velux.livejournal.com]

With the 'A-ha' thing, as I said in the following sentence, it's not a shocker that's what she intended, but what does put up a red flag is that she lied to my face to get the suit back in her possession. It makes me wonder if she had been planning on denying the refund the whole time.

And somehow they've been making suits for I think 3 years or more now, and I believe they're focusing more on their costume business than their illustrations the past 1.5 years or so. The craftsmanship definitely doesn't reflect any of this.

[theblackdragon.livejournal.com]

I agree with both points. What people sometimes don't realize is that you get used to smells that are commonly around you. 'De-scented' critters still reek, and even the sweetest cat or dog is going to smell like an animal. While one may think they've successfully rid themselves or a given article of clothing of smokey odors (or think that hookah smells are quite pleasant in comparison to plain old cigarettes), if an outside observer's nose is not used to a given smell, it's still gonna smell funny or distasteful to them.

Also, unless there's something else in these exchanges between the OP and the maker that we haven't been told, "The materials will not be coming back to me to be used" doesn't sound like she's not going to try and sell it, just that she's not going to personally _use_ it, whether for herself, a friend, or for spare parts for other suits.

[velux.livejournal.com]

That snipit was in reply to me saying:

> On Tue, Nov 8, 2011 at 3:46 PM, Velux wrote:
> You should be able to have the option to revamp it into a generic gryphon/avian and turn this into a profitable situation for you.

[velux.livejournal.com]

Also, quite frankly, the suit smelled quite distinctly of dryer sheets. The head smelled like foam and dryer sheets. Honestly, I wonder if she's mistaking the foam scent for smoke.

[ljmydayaway.livejournal.com]

Wow to the images of the damage. Especially of the gloves. Those were obviously made without knowledge of how to work with knit fabrics. The seam was way too close to the selvage edge of the pattern. There isn't really even any way to fix that without the gloves being too tight.

The rip in the fur looks like it was caused by the same issue.

I've worked with knit quite a bit, and I'm no expert, but I've certainly never had anything shred like that (and I work with doll-sized objects mostly D: ).

[splatterhouse.livejournal.com]

I pointed this out last time, but I do feel it bears repeating: if he was treating the suit as his (thus smoking in it) before the issues cropped up & it needed to be returned, that's not really his fault. If the item was made to quality standards he should have been fine to use it for years to come, so why would he be treating it as an item that may need to be resold in the future? If a seller sends out an item of such poor quality that it doesn't even function correctly it's still their responsibility to take it back, whether they're taking a loss on it or not. He's not returning it because he doesn't like it, he's returning it because it failed to perform.

The OP really should have contacted her as soon as he saw the issues, though, not three months down the road.

[jibacoil.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that's not normal wear and tear damage, that suit's falling apart due to poor craftsmanship.

I hope you're able to get at least part of your money back, because a professionally built fursuit should not fall apart that easily.

[velux.livejournal.com]

Absolutely this. If they could have made a suit that held up in the slightest, no problem. I would have loved it, I would have wanted to keep it, I would have used it for years to come happily. I fully expected to. Until it just became too much. And with how long this has taken and the way it's gone, I've been left with a serious distaste for it all. Ridiculous in its purest sense.

[miss-sevens.livejournal.com]

I agree with your observation: The maker has no clue on how to work with knits. Plus they should have reinforce the seam on those gloves because of the stress that's going to be put on the seam.

[familliaraver.livejournal.com]

A well made suit shouldn't fall apart like that. And yes, if someone drove a brand new car off the lot and the car is defective the company fixes it. Anyone who has sewn anything can tell those seams were not your fault. Paper eyes on a suit that expensive? You should post a full beware here and on fursuit reviews if they don't go above and beyond to make this right with you.

[velux.livejournal.com]

I plan to make everyone fully aware if she doesn't make right on this. I don't want anyone else getting screwed/scammed, much less with so much money on the table.

[ljmydayaway.livejournal.com]

Indeed! I was going to suggest that she should have used a serger, or at least used an overedge stitch on her machine, or handstitched the edge, or... something, but since I haven't made/worn knit gloves before, I wasn't sure if that would cause it to be too bulky.

[fenrirs-child.livejournal.com]

Holy sh*t, that's pretty unbelievable. I still stand by my stance if you saw this level of shoddy workmanship, you certainly shouldn't have continued to wear it, and I think you're going to take a loss somehow for doing so, but there's definitely obvious incompetence here on the part of the maker. I also really want to urge you to post a full beware and fursuit reviews, both on the LJ community and the FA one, because this is horribly atrocious.

[korth.livejournal.com]

That is awful, and every time I see something like this it just reminds me not to get something from that maker. But, unfortunately, they are rather popular and will probably continue to get new customers because most (thought not all, and mainly new to fursuiting) people go purely on aesthetics and popularity rather than looking into wither or not they make a quality product.

I truly hope this does settle in your favour, as I don't think there's anything you've done wrong. They were most likely just looking for any reason/excuse to not give you a refund in the end.. I wish I could be of more help, sorry.

[theblackdragon.livejournal.com]

ah, okay. :3 it sounds pretty clear that she had not been going to resell the suit, at least originally... while she's certainly within her rights to change her mind on that matter, why the promised refund is suddenly contingent on her having the suit in sellable condition is quite odd.

to answer your comment below this one, though -- i mean no offense, but you are a hookah smoker, and you are used to the smells that go along with the activity. perhaps her nose is more sensitive than your own, especially if she doesn't smoke at all herself. it's not impossible.

[badkittyamy.livejournal.com]

You at least should put a review up on the fursuit review lj as well as at ->
http://www.furaffinity.net/user/fursuitmakerreviews/

It was easy enough to find out who the maker was and quite a few of her things have less than happy reviews there. With how much they charge (well cost doesn't really matter anyone doing suit commissions should be putting out a lasting product) people should be getting better than 'fall apart after one con'

I can still after a year swing my head around by it's ears if i wanted to. these are pieces people intent to wear and use and they shouldn't fall apart with general wear.

[bladespark.livejournal.com]

Well I can tell I'm out of the fursuit making loop these days, I've no clue who the maker is. :P

I just can't believe they made the following eyes from PAPER. I feel weird that I make mine from craft foam, but I haven't found anything that works for the purpose better yet. I can't even imagine using paper. And following eyes should be built deeply *into* the head in any case, not just set on top like that. WTF, seriously. I could see somebody used to working in fur not knowing how to work with some other fabric, I've had that kind of thing trip me up before, but... paper! Paper! the only suit I've EVER used paper on was the first suit I ever made and that was a personal suit just for me. I can't get over somebody (especially somebody with years of experience and charging accordingly) using paper!

[taasla.livejournal.com]

You do not have the final product, therefore she owes you compensation. This is ridiculous. I don't sew, and even I can tell you that you didn't do those damages.

Edit: After doing a bit of... stalking (sorry), I found out who the builder is. This isn't the first complaint of their suits literally falling apart. It's a shame to see this is the third that I've heard of having these kinds of issues.