&quot;Artists Beware&quot;

NP.. i can see why the first one was rejected.

From:

khirmoonclaw.livejournal.com

Sorry you had to deal with him Johhny.. I also had a bad experience with him and my first suit.

When it arrived it was about 3 times larger then myself and had so much unsculpted foam it looked like a giant furry brick. After expensing the suit back to him From Georiga to canada which wasnt cheap. He "remade the suit and it was the same mess just with less foam.. He then remade the entire suit and this time it fit much better and I was somewhat happy with it this time around and pretty much the first time I wore it seems started breaking and it did not last a con weekend.

He has improved greatly in his style but sadly he was short and childish with me as well in the end.

From:

i think i remember that whole crap.. and believe me I feel for you.. what burns at my ass is that I DEFENDED him thru shit like that.. and he's like oh well you can get someone else to fix that

From:

growly.livejournal.com

A few questions for you.
When you and your mate first got your suits, did you tell Noble they didn't fit and ask him to fix it?
Mistakes happen, and sizing issues are usually very easy to fix.

Also, all suits need regular maintenance, especially if you are wearing it often. You only wore it to 3 cons, yes, but what you do in the suit during that time and how many hours will affect how it wears.

And comparing his warranty plan with Blackfire's is irrelevant. If you want Blackfire's warranty, buy a Blackfire suit. Everybody has their own terms and conditions, and if these terms were clearly laid out at the beginning of the commission, you have no right to complain.

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How were we going to get him to fix it? The agreement is that these suits were to be delivered before FC and that they FIT. They DID NOT fit. At that point he violated the agreement so I went and enlisted Blackfire's help and he graciously took time and effort to fix two heads and two suits.. thursday.. lasting into the night so the suits were ready to go friday.

From:

neolucky.livejournal.com

I can't see how "They must fit" Would be humanly possible? Without you there 24/7 for fitting, it seems that there's always going to be room for "tailoring". Noones perfect :\. That sort of agreement is on the rediculous side. I can understand you wanting them before the con, but expecting them to be %100 accurate to your body structure is a bit extreme.

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Oh really? Then explain how i gave the same set of measuraments to Tirran aka Ron Orr and he made a suit that not only fit.. but fit WELL?

Also explain that how not just I but other "customers" of his had gotten their suits and had to either have them tailored or completely redone.

No one is perfect.. i agree. But then again there's a degree of professionalism that you expect from some of these people.. and he didnt' meet it. At all

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crssafox.livejournal.com

This is why duct tape dummies are usually sent to a fursuit maker when the person can't be present for fittings. Or, at the very least, VERY exact measurements need to be taken.

In my opinion, if Noble's taking fursuit commissions and has had problems with the suits fitting properly, he needs to request that people send duct tape dummies. If his clients don't want to, THEN it's on the client when the suit doesn't fit properly.

It's not unreasonable to ask that the suits fit properly. It is, however, up to the fursuit maker to be sure they get the proper measurements or means of fitting the suit... the commissioner shouldn't have to remember to provide the information that an "experienced" fursuit maker should already know to ask.

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I agree with da cute foxie! :D

Seriously, I had the same measurements that I gave to Tirran and the suit came out fine.. i give 'em to noble and they're short.. WTF. :)

Anyways, yeah.. if anyone wants to do that.. send him a duct tape dummy..

From:

wereblood.livejournal.com

I completely disagree.

If a fursuiter is taking commissions and saying that he only needs certain measurements to make it fit then it's on the fursuiter to make it fit. When I take a fursuit commission or make one for someone whom is not right next to me I get all the measurements I need right then and there and make the suit to that. It IS NOT hard to make a suit right, especially when you are getting money/expensive things for it. I made my lover's suit without any problems. I had him try it on every now and then, but I did not have to make any alterations because it's not hard. For someone who has made SO many suits you would figure that he would do a better job than that.

Now if he was new, or if one of suits had been mis done I would understand. However when both suits are not done right and he is cold about fixing his own mistakes than you begin to have a problem.

Joy

From:

That's my point exactly, were. I asked people when I was getting my suit built and they were like.. it's not going to fit.. and I said.. no way, this'll fit.. I gave these measurments to Tirran and he built a suit that fit.

Hate to say but they were right. And he's built alot of suits that blackfire had to fix or they were shipped back. Now tell me, if you got a suit a day before the con and you can either a) ship it back and get it fixed or b) pay someone money to re-tailor it.

Which would you do?

From:

tabbicus.livejournal.com

My mate and I just got fursuit boxers from him... no problems yet...

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just make sure they don't break or have a hole in them.. good luck trying to get 'em fixed

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joecifur.livejournal.com

I've heard a fair share of bad press about *both* of those people, actually, but in all fairness--

Fursuiters can make mistakes or miscalculations just like artists. Did you contact Noble to let him know the suits didn't fit to give him a chance to fix them before you handed them to someone else? Sometimes corrections DO need to be made, and while I understand if you were in a rush and wanted to wear them right then, and the mistakes -are- his fault, if so you were the one who made the choice not to wait and made the choice to go to someone else.

Honestly, I don't know if I would feel 100% confident about doing free repairs if some third party'd worked on it. I'd definitely -try-, but I have no way of knowing how experienced the person that repaired it is or how different their way of working is from mine, or if -they- dicked something up by accident in the process.

Are you saying he refused to do anything at -all- after a year, or just refused to do anything for free? I mean -- a "small hole in the underlayer" hardly sounds like that big a deal to me. After three cons of goofing around and a year, I've had to do maintenance like that on several of my heads and suits, and I don't think that "implies one thing" at all. If it was me, I'd probably still fix it, sure, but if he wants to say it's over a year old that's -- his rules.

This sounds more like bad blood, bad communication and two people that just don't get along than something that shitty.. Otherwise, you need to be a little more descriptive of exactly what happened?

From:

Again, as stated above. The agreement was to get these suits and for them to FIT at Further Confusion. We got them days before (I got savannah the night before the con). So that's that.

He refused to do any repairs at all.. saying if it was over a few months he'd fix it for free.. but then again I would have offered to pay for it and now I don't have to. I have suiters in the area that are more than willing to help now.

Basically I have heard horror stories from other furs about him as well adn you know what? I am done. There are other fursuit builders out there and i'd rather deal with someone that's going to be a bit more rational in their responses than someone that just says "No, you're out of luck."

And something else.. i noticed my fursuit fur is thinner than my mate's suit.. which has thicker fur. coincidence? I kinda doubt it.

Johnny

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Hrmm, Blackfire, is he a chubby Canadian dude?

From:

Think so. he so rocks! He fixed two suits and other suits all thursday of last years FC 2006.. god that was awesome. ;)

From:

Opinions differ, but I guess I was in a different situation.

We had some personal issues after which he started posting things about me on his site, told people lies about me behind my back so I'd have people going "Oh, you're -her-, Blackfire told me about you." when I met complete strangers, he even impersonated me on IRC so he could typefuck guys.
Then he attempted to buy some of my art x_x

Needless to say I turned him down.

I hope his behaviour has changed for the better since then, but personally I'd still never do business with him.

From:

meep! sorry thaily.. :( didn't know about that..

he did help me tho. not saying two wrongs don't make a right.. but.. yeesh.. *offers hug?*

From:

Sounds like you had a great experience with him, let's hope he sticks with that kind of conduct *fluffstiger* ;)

From:

whoa! lol. for one i have bought art from only 3 people in 14 years. i have never impersonated anyone to "typefuck" but there was people who impersonated me. i have had my problems.. but holding a grudge for 6 years is a bit much no??

I really don't care what you say. but please keep it in the realm of truth. i remember giving you a hug at a con. AFTER all this stuff you claimed. so something is a bit off:)

but what ever. i am married now. i take my time doing stuff. i improve when i get critisism. i help others. so say what you want. it no longer affects me.

BlackFire

From:

I am remaining in the realm of truth, in fact I'm stil ommiting several things you did. Take your own advice though, we never hugged. You came by my table once and said "hi", I glared at you and you moved on.

What you did wad despicable though, especially considering the fact I was -16- at the time. It really says a lot about a man's character when he impersonates a 16 year old just to he can have cybersex with strangers.

I sincerely do hope you've improved your behaviour, but the cynical part of me wonders if you needed to create elaborate sob-stories about me or any other female in your past to land your current mate.

From:

um.. ok. if thats what you beleive then ok. my logs going back 14 years don't show me impersonating anyone.. but whatever you can beleive your stories. i just don't care. i and many of my friends know the truth.

oh.. btw when i met you years ago. i was gay and did not cyber exept on taps. and i am married to ssithl who is a guy.. so typefucking females is not my thing.

people like you that like to say crap thats not true was at one time annoying amd made me pised off to do stupid tantrums.. just kinda amuses me now.
have a good life.

From:

Gay, right, that's why you wanted to be "mates for3ver omgomgomg" and made preperations to come to EF to meet me and so on.
Your friends only know the truth you told them obviously, you still seem to have a bit of a lying problem going on there though.

Jeesh, that's so sad. For a moment I thought you'd actually become a man since then.

From:

ok:) think what you like. you don't need me to fuel your drama

*wandersoff to make fursuits to customers.*

From:

skanrashke.livejournal.com

Its' true you have done a *number* of stupid things- such as claiming to have terminal cancer, and you couldn't make it to (random con here) because you'd be dead. That was pretty extreme, unwarranted, and in bad taste.

From:

and over 3 years ago. let's leave my unmedicated past in the past yes?
it was not cancer btw. it was a genetic heart disease. i do have this. but severe depression made me cry out for attention in all the wrong ways. now meh who cares.

From:

well 4 years ago. i can't even remember it all clearly..

but anyway. why are people obsessing over me 4-10 years after the fact? i was like any other young extreme emo. can't i change? do people always have to slander the distant past around?

i have been to many cons. met a lot of friends. made friends with people who despised me. ignored and left anyone else alone. if you have problems whith who i used to be. ok.

but spreading the past around to everyone. is like.. well.. what i used to do. and is that not . in bad taste?

From:

skanrashke.livejournal.com

I have no reason to obsess over it, I am however, pointing out that I agree with thaily in that opinions about you differ far and wide. Sure, people can change. But people who do change still have to accept what they did as being something they chose to do- past or otherwise. *Shrugs*

From:

sethcat666.livejournal.com

unfortunately that happens far too often in the fandom. you might have a legitimate issue or simple conflict with one of "those" furries, and you might have even been at fault for the original "event" but had long since reconciled, or at least you thought you had set things right or been right to begin with and had nothing to apologize for at all.

then sometimes years later you find that this individual has been spreading lies about you. me personally if there is something that you have done (arguments, actions, or whatever) that cannot be reconciled i'll be more than happy to share if someone asked me why, however i will not knowingly lie i will state things how they happened as i perceived them.

From:

neolucky.livejournal.com

(Note: I'm not into the furry community at all, but I am basing my comments on experience with costuming in general)

What time frame is this? I don't see any dates and the fact Noblewolf said the suit was a year old, makes me wonder: Was the suit over a year old? Why did you wait so long, if you did?

If a hole "Developed" in the suit over time, then that's noones fault but your own, and this doesn't sound like it happened right away either, but gradually over time. Crafters and Suiters (I know NOTHING about this, honestly) should not be expected to fix every little stitch that pops, or issue after their "Warranty" is up.

He implied you had sex in your suit. So what? That really has no relevance to what this is about. That's a personal thing that you have to deal with.

Other fursuiters don't matter here, comparing one to the other makes this seem way bogus. It's not like they price match =p.

Even if it was "just 3 cons", that actually can damage a suit or costume really quickly. Heck ONE con can put wear and tear on a suit. And the dates of the times you wore them, leads me to believe you let far too much time pass before complaining about it.

This reeks of miscommunication.

From:

Yes , not denying the suit was over a year old (barely, Got the suit 1/18/06 and noticed the hole 1/19/07).

Explaining.. again.. for the third time. The agreement was to have this suit and have it fit for FC. It didn't.. so I reserved the right to basically go elsewhere to get it TO fit.

The hole developed because I noticed my mates suit has a thicker fur with a thicker back and mine is thinner.. why is mine thinner? Maybe he figured that he was getting the short end of the stick of this deal and decided to go cheaper on the second suit. Dunno.

Other fursuiters will stand by their work. Hell I know of more than a few fursuiters that would fix that crap for free and a few local suiters that are going to help me with this issue.

What it is, is plain and simple.. I am tired of hearing the stories of people spending a grand and getting screwed over (points up to khmir). Trust me. There are alot of fursuiters out there that vie for business and you might want to steer clear of those that do cheap and shoddy work.

Johnny

From:

skanrashke.livejournal.com

Note: Most fursuiters have warrantees on their stuff- no one's stuff is warranted a year, I can tell you that off the bat. After a year, fixing it becomes your problem, because you're no longer protected by warrantee.
This isn't just for fursuits- its for cars, everything.

Secondly: If you needed a specific colour that only came in one shade and was hard to find, he probobly took what he could find. You probobly got a cotton backed(Thin, stretchy, not too much durability) fur, and your mate(If your mate has a different colour) got a polyester backed(Or double cotton knit). It happens, fur isn't a high demand product.

I'm not advocating either side in this, but the fact that your suit had violated the warantee due to its' age would have put this in a whole new light.

From:

all my stuff has a 1 year warrenty:)

From:

tabbicus.livejournal.com

Noble asked me to post his side of the rebuttal...

http://noble-pro.livejournal.com/40507.html

From:

Holy crap.

This is entirely unrelated but he needs to learn how to hold down the shift key for each first letter of the sentence and afterwards use a spellchecker.
Isn't English the first language of most Ontarians? Yikes.

On a more related note, this specific situation aside, if he used less foul language it would do wonders for the impression he makes on other people which, at the moment, is not terribly professional.

Also, I'm not sure what "telling off an ass" entails for him but if that ass happens to be a customer it's better to stay polite and say "I've given you the service you paid for and I'm no longer interested in persueing this fruitless discussion. If you do not like my service feel free to patronize someone else next time."

The moral high ground may not sound like an attractive place, especially not when telling people off feels so good, but it could come back to bite you in the ass later. Now for example when potential customers see him responding to a disgruntled customer in an immature and irate manner.

I'm not privvy to the exact details of the transaction and the communication afterwards, but just the tone of Noble's response makes me want to side with Blanco.

In conclusion, Noble would have made a much better impression if his response was something along the lines of "I tried working with this customer but he was rude and made unreasonable demands. I'm sorry it didn't work out to our mutual satisfaction but I was forced to give up in the end after I had given him the full service owed to him for the amount he paid me."

Now, regardless of who's right, Noble has lost customers.

From:

*shrugs* I also tried to ask him why my fur was thinner than my mates suit to try to say that he made my suit with a thinner, lower quality fur. He didn't admit that at all. But hey.. if that's how he wanted to react and post.. i don't see the problem with it.

I am going to get the suit fixed.. or redone. And eat the costs. And that's that. And just wash my hands of Noble and be done with it. It's not worth it.

Johnny

From:

tabbicus.livejournal.com

For the record, I am not leaning either way on this issue. I was just posting his side to honor his wishes. Please dont shoot the messenger-kitty.

From:

not shooting messenger kitty.. 'cause he's nice! :)

From:

Wondering if he's reading the comments here though, if he's not a member here he might benefit from joining so he can learn what -not- to do in the future.

From:

For the record on what i fixed and saw at FC.

now i don't know a lot of the details on this. only that 2 suits were shipped. for a con. both did not fit.. were not even NEAR fitting. blanco asked if noble could fix the one that came a week earlier to fix using express shipping so it be ready. noble refused. he refused right after that con. which the suits were only a coupple months old. that no work would be done. thats all i know.

2 suits that don't fit properly.. should not need almost a YARD of material to fit. I had to use different colors that took me 6 hours to find to match and design to make blanco's suit almost 12 inches wider at chest and upper arms to fit. and make the head fit almost 3 inches around the forhead.. i can see an inch or at most 2 in error. it happens. but no..

i am not putting the work down. no. i am just stating what i had to fix.

blanco: the thinner backing on the fur meybe just the fur. unfortunately we can't all get fur from one company that makes all the desired colors. and have to shop around for the right ones. sometimes the right fur is a bit cheeper then one would want. but allowances for proper seams should make the suit just as durable.

wear and tear do happen in suits. even if all you do is take them off and put them on. heh.

i was happy to fix the suits and get the furs out there to play. and i would help anyone. and still will. i am not going to say what i think of nobles work. since he has bought several from me and destroyed them for the patterns and idea's. but thats his right they are his.

BlackFire

P.S. blanko: did the additions i made hold up ok?

From:

chmarr.livejournal.com

Actually, clothing patterns (fursuits included) are copyrightable, and has been court-tested :) Whether or not you want to use that leverage is up to you :)

From: