Bae bunny refuses to continue editing mistakes without a 75 usd payment or they will "dispute"?

[shizimiru okame]

TLDR: Bae bunny of fa made mistakes on a 100 dollar commission for 5 icons, 20 a piece. Makes many mistakes after agreeing to edits, then refuses the edits after a while demanding 75 usd, or they will dispute the transaction.

WHO: http://www.furaffinity.net/user/baebunny
WHERE: Furaffinity.net
WHAT: 5 icons for 100.00 usd, Made mistakes and refuses to continue editing unless they receive an addtional 75.00usd

WHEN: A few months ago to current day.
commission dissussions:
http://i.imgur.com/sTbQ4ul.png
http://i.imgur.com/fq4AAoy.png
http://i.imgur.com/yc5aDPs.png (they got the 5 customs)

Artist agrees to make edits:
http://i.imgur.com/7NUeueh.png
http://i.imgur.com/n4Qbk2q.png


Bae claims before argument that they are raising prices here on out: http://i.imgur.com/0mhp1kH.png

Bae claims to dispute the payment unless paied: http://i.imgur.com/Sj3esrA.png

My responce after being told I would have to pay more or be disputed: http://i.imgur.com/8tdCrMM.png

My self expaining some edits that are needed to be done: http://i.imgur.com/Vq1cIVQ.png

My refernaces:
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/10133553 (WARNING MAY BE NSFW)
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/10241628
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/10241557

as you can see these references are very detailed so the mistakes are on the Bae's not mine.

One of the icons where the frames are botched: http://i.imgur.com/Aalz7bu.gif
in this icon you see the horn is messed up, and they refused to fix this icon as well as the other 3.
this is the only icon done correctly but edits still needed to be made at first, http://www.furaffinity.net/view/10491255/

you can see here that he requires the reffernaces so he can evuate his prices: http://www.furaffinity.net/view/8786918/

Explain: He's done this work a lot they should have known better then to take this commission for that price. Bae knew the difficulty of this project and still took it on, why should I have to pay 75.00 usd for something they messed up? This sounds kinda fishy and scam like to get more money out me.

Take for example you have a mechanic fix your car, and they mess up, would you pay them more to fix it?
this could have been avoided if the user had a tos stating that after a certain amount of edits the commissioner would then pay edit fee's, this user does not have a TOS that I can find.

There are more notes that aren't shown due to the fact it's the same argument over and over, I paid you for this, why won't you finish your job?

Icons they are very personable to the people getting them, and at 20 apiece you expect them to be very well done. after being on a waiting list for months, they are contacted a few weeks ago and they paid for the work and now this... The artist has not replied in about 24 hours, but has read the notes sent by the user.


What do?

Comments

[kayla-la.livejournal.com]

I will only say this once. Criticism of the behaviour of both the customer and artist are allowed, but I expect all of you to be civil while doing so. This is your only warning on that. If you don't think you can express yourself politely, don't do it at all.

[wuvvumsoc.livejournal.com]

Oh dear.

I recommended Bae Bunny when I had a picky customer I didn't want to handle myself. I kind of hope this isn't normal for him.

[wuvvumsoc.livejournal.com]

Icons they are very personable to the people getting them, and at 20 apiece you expect them to be very well done.

I just want to note that no, I wouldn't expect them to be very well done. Someone came to me with that attitude and I turned them away because after we "haggled" over the price he mentioned how he was expecting something good, when he wanted something fully animated. He even said because it's "just an icon" he expected $20 to be a lot. It is not.

They are animated. Even if he's taking the tweened route (which saves some time) it can still take 2-5 hours to make one. Bae's undercharging.

[epiceternity.livejournal.com]

Agree, $20 would probably get you a well done static icon but is way too low for an animated one. It's clear that the issue is the artist undercharged in the first place.

[epiceternity.livejournal.com]

Looking at this one- http://i.imgur.com/Aalz7bu.gif I can straight away see two major issues, the horn and ear closest swap position during the head turn and there's something wrong going on at the end of the cycle with the wing and tail movements resulting in an odd popping effect. As an former animator myself there's no way I'd be happy with those two really obvious issues going on in something I produced. The corrected one looks good so i'm surprised that there's no pride on his behalf in wanting the others to be good too. Seems the artist just baulked at the idea of the work involved to fix things.

Yes, normally it's not really on to charge more money after the commission, if you don't charge enough to start with normally you just have to suck it up and learn from it. However I can't find anything about this artists rule to edits. Usually some artists allow a certain amount of edits before charging but not always the case. Without an edit rule set before the commission started, it becomes a bit of a grey area.

With the example of that icon with the issues given, it seems that the mistakes are within the animation itself so I think it's bad form to charge for fixing them, esp with no info that mistakes will be charged expressed prior to the contract.

[epiceternity.livejournal.com]

Btw while you shouldn't have to pay for the artist's mistakes, if you get really stuck with this, there is a possible solution of offering a nominal amount towards getting them corrected (i.e 4 x $5= $20). I don't like the idea for giving artist money after demanding the way they did but it might smooth the way to getting the icons corrected so you can actually use them.
It's one possible option, though not the best one.

[dragontripmon.livejournal.com]

You know from the second link contains his paypal address shouldn't that be censored. Though something about this really bothers me considering I like to see both sides of the story.

[kayla-la.livejournal.com]

You're right. OP, if you could please edit Bae's personal paypal out of that screenshot, we'd appreciate it. Not sure how I missed that.

[zippiner.livejournal.com]

While I think Bae should fix the major animation errors (Ear layering behind the horn, interior of wing for example) I have to agree with him on the minor edits you need.

You're expecting incredibly detailed work in an icon that is going to be compressed to a small size in the end. More detail than is going to show, or people are even going to notice.

-
Bae should be fixing the major issues, yes. However I feel as if you should not be nitpicking on smaller details that will not show up well after the icon size is reduced.
That being said, Bae SHOULD have a TOS that states how many edits he will make before he begins charging.

While I agree that with the time it is taking and the edits he should be getting more money, he shot himself in the foot for not having a TOS.

[wuvvumsoc.livejournal.com]

Some of them might not be able to show but I think the dots along the eyes might?

I definitely make sure to tell my customers if I am making something small and animated then something like markings or tattoos probably won't show up.

Also flash seems to be ridiculous with compression and filesizes when making gifs. I started using GIMP2 which has worked out better for me.

[timelapsedecay.livejournal.com]

Agreeing with zippiner- the icons are not professional standard, and $20 for an icon animated to that degree isn't much
However like it was said above your character is VERY detailed and icons are typically not something that can hold a lot of detail and still look nice

[kasune.livejournal.com]

I am VERY GLAD the artist in question put their foot down and DID NOT haggle with the OP/commissioner. I would like to say from a neutral party that I find attempting to haggle with an artist to be quite rude, unless you state your budget from the start. If an artist quotes a price, that is that. Don't ask for discounts. Don't ask for a reduction just because you're buying a bundle. That is not your choice- it's the artist's. If that artist is out of your budget, find an alternative piece from them if you really want their art, or find another artist altogether.

OP, your characters are very detailed. In a cartoony style flash icon, it would be best if the artist simplified the looks. I agree that the major mistakes should be fixed, but you asked for a lot of edits to the point of bringing the artist to total exasperation. That is why they got annoyed with you. I don't condone the way they expressed it, but if I were in their place, I would have just refunded you and wiped my hands clean. $20 for a flash icon like that is not professional standard, and the way you argued with the artist was unreasonable. Some of the statements in your post also rub me the wrong way.

The artist may not have been the most professional, but you weren't either. Your notes were very difficult to read. This is a business transaction. Avoid using emotes and terms like "hun." You don't know the artist, and even if you did, it's not necessary. You want a business transaction to go with smooth sailing.

Mods: I'm sorry if this comes off as angry/aggressive- that's not my intention, and I will edit it if necessary.

[azzyblue.livejournal.com]

Very well said here.

The "hun" thing personally bothered me more than some things; I've noticed a lot of furries do this. It's not generally okay to call someone that unless you know them well. It sounds condescending and overly familiar.

OP, When doing business with someone, keep it polite, professional and short; don't give them pet names or treat them like a friend you're having a chat conversation with. Use spellcheck. If there are mistakes in the finished art, there are ways of politely letting the artist know.

As others have said; your character is extremely complicated. Expect minor mistakes here and there, even with your giant ref sheet. Artists aren't art machines that are there to place every tiny detail exactly where you want it. Obviously if there's a giant, glaring error, most artists are willing to fix that type of thing... but it does get to a point when you probably should just let it go.

This is the reason why some artists tack on a certain amount for complicated characters. A generic fox would probably take three times less time and effort to draw than your bird-cat-thing, and that's okay! You're definitely allowed to have a complex character. But cut artists some slack when you commission them... being overly picky will just make them never want to work with you again.

I do agree the animation errors should have been fixed, and that the artist should be charging more for their work, at least for more complicated characters. They also should probably have a TOS with a "number of edits" bit on it to avoid this in the future.

In other words, this could have gone better on both sides.

[toscaterrier.livejournal.com]

I think the artist should definitely have fixed the obvious animation issues, such as the horn/ear swap and the wing losing a frame.

However, your character is INCREDIBLY detailed. I agree with the artist that you were expecting far too many details to be included in an icon of such a small filesize. Every single marking adds up when you're animating, and the artist's icon style is very 'cartoony' and simplistic.

I can't find the artist's TOS anywhere. Did you ever look at one before commissioning them? Because yes, they agreed to the price beforehand, but if you didn't make an agreement through their TOS I don't think it's beyond their right to charge more for multiple nitpicky changes.

[hellebore.livejournal.com]

Must agree, especially on the artist not having a TOS, I think they can kinda call the shots here on what they want to do. A TOS is used to protect both artist and client. Tricky situation.

[negawolfie.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry to say but Shizi calling Bae an asshole on a skype call and telling people in stream not to commission him is wrong. You also told streamers not to commission artists at all if they do not have a TOS, plus you continue to PUBLICLY shame Bae in front of streamers and say how he purposely make these mistakes to charge people.

I may not have the proof needed for this but from what I heard while being in Nataya's stream I am simply disgusted and I feel that everyone should hear Bae's side of the story before passing a judgement.

[azzyblue.livejournal.com]

... Wow. :/ Pretty appalling behavior, if true. Definitely starting to look like an "Artists, beware this commissioner" situation.

[dilario.livejournal.com]

I personally think this is looking more like a beware on you rather than the artist. They already had extremely cheap prices and tried to tell you numerous times how difficult it would be to meet your expectations. Echoing all the other commenters I agree they should fix the major issues, but as a commissioner you were very pushy and aggressive. Had I been in the artist's place, I'd feel backed into a corner as well.

[nxcritter.livejournal.com]

With my personal experiences with the OP as a commissioner I would have to agree.

[nxcritter.livejournal.com]

I agree that the Price should raised for future commissions regarding bea.
If you look on the FA page of the OP Bea has fixed the icons in question, at least enough to where the op uses them.

On a side note Bea should make a TOS. I think that would solve this issue for further incidences.

On personal note, having done commissions for this person befor I don't blame bae for getting frustrated and requesting more money. I think we maybe missing some of this story but this just my personal thought on the subject with my past experience with this commissioner.

In case Bea is reading this post:

[rimpala.livejournal.com]

"On a side note Bea should make a TOS. I think that would solve this issue for further incidences. "

THIS

[zackfig.livejournal.com]

While I agree that the artist commissioned should fix some of the errors.

1. like others have said, your character is too detailed to be properly rendered in such a small place.
2. the way you handled this, plus the dirty laundry people have found on you seem to indicate that the one with the biggest red flag is not the artist, but you.

[nxcritter.livejournal.com]

you have no idea how bright that red is, it's blinding.

This will have to wait for the post soon to come tho.

[rimpala.livejournal.com]

"you can see here that he requires the reffernaces so he can evuate his prices"

Not sure if this is even listed as a negative or anything, but it seems like a sound business practice to me. Especially for animation, animation tends to lend itself better to simple character designs. And when I mean simple I mean simpler then most fursonas, including some of mine!

[duster.livejournal.com]

I agree. Artists can charge based on character complexity. I'm an icon artist and I've always charged extra forr complicated characters. It's not an insult to the character creator; time is money. Therefore if an artist spends more time on your character they should quote you for more money.

However charging after the fact without a ToS saying you will is bad practice.

I don't even know if this helps but...

[rimpala.livejournal.com]

Ok I expressed this before, but in the name of simple peace-keeping, the larger animation issues stick out more then the details. I can see why the mistakes may have been made - concentrating on the details over the form causes artists to make glaring obvious mistakes!

What's done is done, but if there is anything to be salvaged from this, I believe that fixing the issues with the disappearing wings, and the ear/horn swaps should be concentrated on first, then details can come second. Settling down and concentrating on fixing the form of the character and getting to the details afterwards might save a little headache. I know for a fact that Flash easier to work with this way.

Re: I don't even know if this helps but...

[panderpsocks.livejournal.com]

That's all fine and dandy, but as you can see from her notes, she wants everything SPOT ON. Going so far as to say "She's missing 4 spots here" and "there's a stray red dot there" and "Her tongue is forked, not curved". I think the artist would have been a lot more eager to fix things if it were "The wing is glitching here" or "The horn is messed up".

Aaaaaaaand in this corner, BAE BUNNY! :V

[ext-1797244.livejournal.com (from livejournal.com)]

This is weird on my part because I never thought that I was going to be involved here! Had to create a brand new account even. If this isn't how you deal with an issue, sorry! Its my first time ; o ; Be gentle~

Thanks guys for bringing this to my attention and to anyone that has been on my side. I do think its important to hear both sides of the story, so here I am! Words from the horse's mouth :U So here's the scoop:

STEP 1: "I -totally- should have handled myself better"

I was probably out of line asking for $75 to make edits, and I shouldn't have been so strict, but take a look at my list of notes from her:

http://i.imgur.com/3JKm7ix.jpg

This isn't just garble, this is a back and forth of edits upon edits upon edits with her. I really couldn't take it anymore! With the way things were going I could have animated for her indefinitely if she wanted. It was apparent after a while that nothing was going to be perfect and I wasn't going to be able to move on, so I abruptly quit.

For the issue on not having a TOS, I actually haven't had a negative issue like this up until now! Everyone I've made stuff for was happy as far as I knew, so I never needed one :I This felt like an issue going, "No TOS? Mmm...exploit!" Since after all of this I've been constructing one, but as a result, icons are going to be more related to "Time Invested" rather than per icon, which brings me to...

STEP 2: "Bae Gives into the Demands!"

I didn't want to spend unpaid time to continue to animate, but I was threatened on getting an AB Page otherwise, as her note shows above. So before I went to bed, I got this note:

http://i.imgur.com/jYk2Bby.jpg

So "fix the icons and I won't post an AB page," eh? What else could I do! I caved in and did the edits for free that following morning at 11AM, as shown here:

http://i.imgur.com/WJSU1ZE.jpg
I include a highlight of the things that needed to be edited so it was apparent I knew what had to be fixed.

She responds later saying this:

http://i.imgur.com/jqTDb5u.jpg

Then posts them to her account as shown here:

http://i.imgur.com/3d7Ag7G.jpg

So with me being finished animating and her posting the icons, I would have assumed I met my end of the bargain and wouldn't get the AB page!

:V ...

STEP 3: "I got a bad feeling about this~"

I know she says she was waiting for these icons for months, but she only contacted me on April 16th asking if she could pay now for the icons, even though her spot wasn't up on my que yet. I never charge ahead of time, but she was being persistent:

http://i.imgur.com/uvw8FgF.jpg

She kept wanting me to give a discount for a bundle deal and wasn't getting the hint, so I sent this note:

http://i.imgur.com/Dx9pdf0.jpg

I want to point out that I warned her I work on customs and charge for the time spent, rather than a flat rate per icon. The more complicated/longer they take to animated, I charge more, ranging from $15 - $30. So when someone sends me $20 for each icon and then has a laundry list of big icons as shown in her notes above...I -really- felt like I was getting ripped off . ~ . So I responded with some suggestions on changes, and I get this back:

http://i.imgur.com/ncPHQrG.jpg

Just pointing out that she says "do what ya think is right here, i trust you x3" and she was going to pay me $10+ for the more complicated one. If I had known in the end how difficult she was to work with, I wouldn't have taken her request. In the end, she got her finished icons with the edits for free!

TL;DR
~In a conclusion~

1. I shouldn't have freaked out
2. I've created a TOS for the future and raised the prices of my icons to accommodate for time spent on each icon rather than a flat rate
3. I made the edits for her and she said "thanks" and posted them to FA
4. I was threatened, gave into demands, and was STILL posted on Artist Beware anyway!
5. Comico was Suspended from FurAffinity for harrasment, so I feel like she is doing this because she's still mad
6. Issue was resolved May 2nd @ 2:34PM

Thanks for reading my side anyway u 3 u ~
Make your own opinions for yourself; this is just how I saw things from my perspective. Just let me know if you need to know anything else!

~Bae

Re: Aaaaaaaand in this corner, BAE BUNNY! :V

[wuvvumsoc.livejournal.com]

April 16, 5 icons. Your turnaround is insane.

Glad you got to clear your side of the story on this.

[otherscape.livejournal.com]

So, you threaten Bae with an AB post, but when they come through and do everything you demanded, you post it anyway?

I will be avoiding you like the Plague.

[xubunturambles.livejournal.com]

this

[cyiakanami.livejournal.com]

That escalated rather quickly. I've gotten an icon from Bae before and loved it so much! Quick service, friendly and was very pleased all around.

The OP here.. is almost prime example of something I like to avoid and have added already to that list.

Glad you came here to clear things up Bae!

[sapphistscot.livejournal.com]

Yikes, glad I'm not the only person who was really put off by the OP's repeated requests for a bulk discount, and on seeing those caps of all the notes they didn't put in the beware, they're definitely someone I'd never want to work with. Also really put off by the fact that Bae did everything they wanted, though those lists of edits were ridiculous, and the OP still posted them here.

[duster.livejournal.com]

Now that Bae has cleared up everything (and is working in fixing things, thumbs up to that) I will never work for the OP.

Bae bent over backwords for you and after he did what you asked to avoid being put up on AB, you did it anyway. Cutting out info, threatening him, and then going back on your word? Yeah no. Beware on the OP.

[rimpala.livejournal.com]

Indeed, this shouldn't be what this community is for...

[ducttapeninja.livejournal.com]

Wow. I certainly wasn't expecting this when the beware was first posted!

Thank you Bae for coming in to give your side... And I have to agree, it's very telling that the OP didn't include the rest of those notes. Even moreso that the OP hasn't even been back to respond at all to any of it.

I think it's pretty clear who the real problem in this transaction has been, and I'm so sorry that Bae had to deal with such a problematic commissioner.

[ansitru.livejournal.com]

Well this sure turned out unexpected.

Being an icon-artist myself, I can understand how it's frustrating when someone doesn't get that you honest-to-god can't cram every single detail into a restricted space, especially not if you still have to animate it, then downsize it and then hope to god it looks like it should.

And I find it especially bad form from OP to ask for so many edits, while only paying $20 per icon. OP, you have an extremely detailed character. Too detailed to fit in a 100x100, even. So when an artist tells you that, they're not being unwilling, they're just being realistic and giving you a head's up that the icon will not look exactly like the character with every spot and marking included. Perhaps if you tried making just one icon yourself, you would see this.

As for the artist: please tell me you've made a ToS now that includes the number of edits you will do that are included in the price of the icon. Also state that any edits above that number, if they're not the artist's mistake will be marked for an extra fee.

Other than that ... well there's not much to say about this entire situation other than "what a mess". Though I now know of one more commissioner to avoid, so thanks.

[dopamiiine.livejournal.com]

The way Comico handled this transaction reminded me of http://altmarket.net/index.php?topic=17013.0;nowap this situation many years ago; it's really similar.

[sapphistscot.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the link, it's good to know that this wasn't a one-off, OP has a history of this sort of behaviour.

[hellebore.livejournal.com]

Hmmm, beware indeed... of working with you. Thanks for the heads up.

[lackoflollies.livejournal.com]

Yes I have to agree;

Thank you for bringing attention to yourself, and your habits. I'll make sure to spread the word to everyone I can to avoid all contact and business with you, Comico.

I hope someone is backing this entry up in case she deletes it.

[lackoflollies.livejournal.com]

I've screencapped the entire entry, up until this comment. If OP ends up deleting it, mods are free to message me for the full image.