Beware: Deadlyhabitual

[angelofgeek.livejournal.com]

WHO: Deadlyhabitual

WHERE: http://www.furaffinity.net/user/deadlyhabitual/
Should note she has no TOS.

WHAT: Three portraits for furcadia.
http://i50.tinypic.com/opzg4i.png
Priced all around at 45 dollars.

WHEN: Between February 6th/7th to March 3rd.
First contact/sending of payment. http://i.imgur.com/ofvFbuT.png
Last note I received from her. http://i.imgur.com/gq8LdMc.png

PROOF: Paypal. http://i.imgur.com/iKIF3xM.png I did send a little extra cause I didn't want to be short a few cents, and because I wanted to come off as nice.

EXPLAIN: I first approached her for commission around tax return, my mom had given me a hundred something dollars to spend on whatever I wanted. So I opted for some ports for my characters, a witch, a red riding hood, and an anthro avian. I was nothing but pleasant, and nice. I was patient, and didn't give her a deadline, and her friend had told me that if I had, she would of felt rushed and ended up not doing it. I did ask a few times how the art was coming, I was a bit nervous(mostly due to my anxiety disorder), to order from someone I had never commissioned from before, but I sucked it up and waited. There was a snow storm going through their area, I understood, and sat quietly by while I waited, before I got the sketches shown above. I asked for a few minor changes.( http://i.imgur.com/6AaC23B.png ) She had left out the necklace on the penguin, and I had forgotten to mention that she was anatomically correct(i.e. no bewbs), I mostly blamed myself for not defining that. After wards I continued to wait, asked for an update and an estimate for when she thought she'd be done and she told me this http://i.imgur.com/gq8LdMc.png. Well come morning, there was no finished product, nothing, I even had left her my emails for the sending of the ports, but I had received nothing, so I continued to wait, sending her a few more notes for updates, which went read, but not replied to.( Out box http://i.imgur.com/743sIBs.png Inbox http://i.imgur.com/15b2OoP.png ). She went on hiatus apparently(I didn't think to snap a screen shot at the time, stupid I know.), but said she'd get the art done, once again, I waited. Her computed apparently crashed, so I understood and continued to wait, once more, she had started up an art drive.( http://i.imgur.com/FFqIJc5.png ), as you can see I'm on the waiting list, so I continued to wait. A month after, she finally says she's closing. ( http://i.imgur.com/AGWUhKs.png ) Still says she's going to finish the art everyone paid for, and to post there to remind her. ( http://i.imgur.com/O2845D2.png ), at this point I'm getting a little worried, but of course, I continued to wait. So three weeks ago I asked for an update, which goes unread, I wait thinking maybe she hasn't had time to check her inbox. And then eleven days ago I finally asked for a refund, so that my mom wouldn't get pissed at me for spending money on something that would never come. ( http://i.imgur.com/2CLiUm5.png ) I even left her an email, incase her inbox was constantly receiving notes.( http://i.imgur.com/UuRVKIb.png ) All through this I was never once unpleasant, maybe I came off a bit pushy, but I was nervous, because I had never commissioned from her before. From now on, I'll stick with artists who I commissioned from before hand(and have received art from). These notes, as you can see, have gone unread, and I have not received an email from her yet. I just want a refund, so that my mom won't be mad at me, and so that I can eventually recommission someone for new ports.

Update: She has told me she will refund me. ( http://i.imgur.com/sXnp3ql.png ) Although it isn't borrowed money. (My mom *gives* it to me for tax refund), I am pleased she is going to refund me.

Update No.2: I have still not yet received a refund.

Current Mood: Tired of waiting.

Comments

[exo-formicidae.livejournal.com]

Hmm, there is definitively a lack of communication from her side. However, if she did show you a sketch I don't think you should get the full $45, she did do some work, even if it wasn't completely correct, so I think 45 - the price of a sketch would be more fair.

On a side note, I might be butting into your bussiness here, but I think/hope if you explain the situation that your mother won't be angry. It's money, and you should have recieved something for it, but it's still the artist who took the comission and haven't delivered.

[ladyelysium.livejournal.com]

I disagree with you that the OP shouldn't get the full $45 back. At the end of the day, they paid for complete pieces of work and the artist did not deliver what was paid for. A sketch is an uncompleted piece of work (in this case at least) and I don't believe the OP should be made to pay for something that is not complete - especially since it was through no fault of their own, it is 100% on the artist.

[yarbro.livejournal.com]

I think it can narrow down to the TOS. If the artist puts down of how much a commissioner can receive back from uncompleted commission then the commissioner is bound to the rules.

However, the OP pointed out that the artist have no TOS. Therefore, the artist must paid 100% back because the art is not completed.

But I might be wrong about that.

Edited: Bound not bond. Darn my spelling. XD

[houndofloki.livejournal.com]

I've always had an issue with that myself. The buyer never agreed to purchase sketches and may not've had any desire to do so. This person wanted game portraits, and sketches are useless for that. A sketch isn't the product they agreed to buy.

If the commission was canceled due to some misbehavior on the buyer's part, fine. But if the problem was on the artist's end, I don't see why the buyer should be on the hook for something they never agreed to buy in the first place.

[dingus.livejournal.com]

disclaimer: I haven't read the full beware so this comment isn't really pertinent to it at all

The problem is - and this seems to be a pretty fundamental understanding in the hobbyist/casual art commission world - you aren't buying a product when you get a commission. I think some artists even forget or aren't aware of that.

You're buying a service. That is, you're buying a chunk of that artist's time and effort, which, once expended, can never be replaced. This is one of the (many) reasons an artist should almost never work for free (or in promise for 'credit' or something equally intangible) - it's not like giving away something that's already been made like a song, it's literally giving away time and energy you could have charged for and can never recoup.

So people generally suggest that people subtract the cost of work already done from refunds for unfinished products because for the artist - what they put into it is gone. They can never get it back. When you're buying an actual product, the retailer can usually turn around and resell the same product, at least at a discount, or sell it to a second-market shop, or SOMETHING.

If the artist spent any time on the commission at all and produced SOMETHING, even if it wasn't what the buyer wanted, they deserve to be compensated for that time spent, imo.

[houndofloki.livejournal.com]

It is an agreement to buy a service - but it's an agreement to buy a *specific* service. In this case, creation of portraits for an online game. Sketches are useless for that. If the artist just decides to cancel the commission for their own reasons, the buyer is by no fault of their own stuck paying a price they didn't agree to for something they didn't want and can't use.

The fact that you spent time on something is irrelevant if what you produced isn't what the buyer agreed to purchase. If someone makes you half a necklace or grooms half your cat or any other service, you're not going to care that they can never get back the time they spent doing half a job. You still wouldn't pay for it, because the end result is not what you signed up for or wanted - and you would've never agreed to pay a dime for a necklace you can't wear or a half-shaved cat.

Obviously, this changes if the job is canceled on the buyer's request or due to some misbehavior on the buyer's part.

[the-vol.livejournal.com]

I don't think that's how the industry works, though. While you're providing a service, the customer is still buying that service with the expectation that they're walking out of it with a product they wanted/needed/can use.

If I were contracted to do an illustration for a business and then failed to deliver, that business wouldn't be giving me a dime for my time because by the contract I was to deliver a finished product, not a sketch. I couldn't argue that I spent my time and am therefore entitled to some of the cash, because their counter-argument would be that they did not receive what was promised in the contract.

I don't see how creating custom art for a private individual would be any different. If the agreement was for a finished piece and the artist fails to deliver, they are not fulfilling their part of the deal and as such are not entitled to being compensated for their time. The time spent should be the artist's loss, not the customer's.

[shukivengeance.livejournal.com]

If it were regular art I'd agree with you but in this case the product was supposed to be something useable for a game which has very specific requirements. It's unfair for the op to be out their money and left with something they cant use just because the artist is flaky. Unlike cases where a regular sketch can be re used or finished by someone else those tiny thumbnails are actual size and a port artist capable of finishing is hard to find. DH didn't even do the requested changes before vanishing either.

(frozen)

[neolucky.livejournal.com]

You and Shuki are talking about two completely different subjects - One is work for hire, under contract and the other is casual illustration commission, of which is far more lenient.

You're kinda taking some of her words out of context there.

I disagree, artists do not deserve compensation when they are contracted to make a finish product and then do not deliver, however thats personal bias - that is how I personally work. If I cannot deliver the promised item, I refund in full. A customer did not ask me for a sketch, they asked for a finished image. If I can't give that to them, then I have no business taking their money.

(frozen)

[neolucky.livejournal.com]

And I am. So please cite your sources, I'm curious where you are getting your information from.

(frozen)

[neolucky.livejournal.com]

Frankly, the lack of TOS makes this whole thing incredibly muddy.

Unless you can cite me the source of an actual law, what you're saying seems pretty unlikely and unreasonable. What law claims there's a basis for an automatic contract? Which law states an artist will be paid for time and effort, despite not finishing the product?

It would help if you'd cite some sources to read over.

Also, I want to politely say you're coming off fairly aggressive. You may not intend on that, but thats the vibe I'm getting so just tone it down and keep it civil.

(frozen)

[sigilgoat.livejournal.com]

It's incredibly normal in the art industry to have contracts cancelled with no income given to the artist at all. It doesn't matter because it didn't fulfill the contract. However, these things are all laid out in the contract.

In the commission world, it's up to the artists if they refund fully or only a partial. This is something a customer should research about their chosen artists.

I am also reading you as aggressive as you are not citing any legal sources, but using the ephemeral "experience" as your reasoning.

Without that, we are all talking about opinions, and can only speak in those, not absolutes.

(frozen)

[sigilgoat.livejournal.com]

To quote Neolucky:
artists do not deserve compensation when they are contracted to make a finish product and then do not deliver, however thats personal bias

As you can see, she stated her position as opinion.

In addition, it's poor form to change the subject and bring up pricing and other matters when we are talking specifically about contracts.

(frozen)

[neolucky.livejournal.com]

Ah, no. When I contract someone to do my windows, or my deck, or staircase, or roofing...I get a quote. They come and do the job, then I get invoiced. I pay after the job is done.

I do not pay for time and materials if they cannot finish the job I've contracted them to do. I literally just did this with a deck contractor, it did not happen the way you've explained here at all.

(frozen)

[neolucky.livejournal.com]

Yes. I'm aware of how a quotes and construction jobs work.

[thesquarefox.livejournal.com]

sorry to butt in...however...

I would agree that the artist get back a percentage in a situation like this IF the customer were allowed to take the sketch and have it finished by someone else, but a LOT of artists get all pissy about stuff like that..I just dont think its fair that they should get a sketch they cant evr see finished when thats what they wanted in the first place. My friend's dad hired a guy to fix up their back deck, but the guy flaked out and only did part of the work. He was paid for that part, but then they got someone else to come and complete the job. Its not exactly the same...but a half finished deck would be kind of useless and not what they wanted lol.

Of course, if the customer is the one who cancels or disrupts the transaction, then yeah the artist should keep the full amount or whatever would be fair, imho ^^

(frozen)

[angelofgeek.livejournal.com]

Er, it seems kinda like you're trying to personally attack them with that hobby comment.

(frozen)

[neolucky.livejournal.com]

Freezing this thread, as it's getting off topic and far too into making assumptions.

(frozen)

[neolucky.livejournal.com]

Tone it down. Official warning. I'm reading more and more of your responses, and they are getting increasingly more like attacks. Please stop and calm yourself before continuing on.

(frozen)

[neolucky.livejournal.com]

Without citing your sources, you are literally guessing at what is and is not law. I personally don't find it productive. So...unless you can find me sources to read over and discuss with, I'll ask that you do the research first instead of making educated guesses on the topic. Some of the things you are saying simply don't make sense to me, as I too, have experience in multiple fields and contract work.

[thesquarefox.livejournal.com]

no. If you get someone to finish colouring something for you, especially if you dont publish it anywhere and do nothing but enjoy the product for what you intentionally wanted it, then it has nothing to do with copyright and just the rights in the product. I wouldnt care if someone got someone else to colour my lines, as long as they didnt lie about it. And like I said, if they arent going to let the customer get what they actually agreed to pay money for and receive, then not letting someone else finish the job means the customer through no fault of their own will never ever be able to get a finished product. I dont think artists can have it both ways.

Im not talking about when the customer cancels, only when the artist cancels or takes such a long time that its unreasonable for the customer to be held to a contract that the artist is ignoring or not intending to complete :C

[celestinaketzia.livejournal.com]

It doesn't matter. Altering someone's work without their express permission is a violation of their copyright. Should someone else get paid to do the work, the original artist can seek compensation.

It's okay if you're alright with other people altering your work, but other folks are free to exercise their rights as granted onto them by law.

[thesquarefox.livejournal.com]

I dont think so...from what I understand, copyright and property rights are two different things. copyright infringement would be if I went and did something like publish or copy or distribute someone else's work (altered or not), but if someone lets say is hired to paint a mural on my kid's bedroom wall and flakes out halfway through, I can pay someone to finish it because its the actual wall Im paying for, not the rights to the image. Dont people around here always say that you have to pay a lot extra if you intend to buy the copyrights to an image you commission? if they dont have the right to have someone else finish the contract (just for the personal use they wanted int he first place) then I dont understand what rights they actually have. what are they paying for? and also, if thats the case, then it would be really unfair for someone to cancel the whole deal and not give them a full refund and a product they can never have finished.

[celestinaketzia.livejournal.com]

From my understanding, what you're talking about is derivative work (http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ14.pdf). Making a piece utilizing another from another artist. If this is the case, the artist has to grant authorization.

Now as for traditional media, yes, it is true that you can do whatever with the final image. Burn it, etc. But I don't believe derivative work is covered, and the artist can seek compensation.

What an artist is being paid for is their time.

Now for this specific case, I do agree that it would not be right for the artist to toss a partial refund and cancel the contract. It's quite different than a mural, which exists in real life. I always have held the stance that if it is the artist canceling, then it is only good business to issue a full refund and reuse any made items at their discretion.

[werewolfofwater.livejournal.com]

I think it should depend on who's fault it is. If the commissioner decided to suddenly cancel, then it's not the artist's fault and they should only refund for work not done. If the artist cancels or fails to deliver the product then the commissioner should get a full refund, as in that case it's not the commissioner's fault they now have a product they didn't want/can't use.

In this case, the artist failed to deliver the product through no fault of the commissioner...so I think they should get a full refund.

[thecreativepen.livejournal.com]

The artist effectively cancelled the commission by refusing to finish and not providing WIPs through non-communication. I personally believe if the commissioner cancels, a partial refund is in order for work done. But the fact remains that this artist apparently has no intention to finish the work.

[yarbro.livejournal.com]

There is no doubt there is a lack of communication- I saw on the artist page is that the artist is closing business. :/ Odd.

I do agree with Exo Formicdae that you should explain to your mother what happened.

Please take my next suggestion as a grain of salt- I am not trying to make you as a bad person (because you are not). But it could prevent you and your mother a few headaches.

I would suggest not to spend someone's else money unless it is a you fully own it. Even though you did nothing wrong and did everything correct in this situation- because what had accord, you are now having this direct tie of your mother's money and the unresponsive artist.

And I hate to see you being torn up because of that. If it was your own money- even though you did lose it- at least it wasn't your mother nor do need to pay her back or prove you receive the product.

So my suggestion is not to spend "money gifts" unless you can receive the product directly (such as a premade item).

[deadlyhabitual.livejournal.com]

Thank you. And I fully agree. As my mother never gives me money for anything and even if she did I would never spend it on commissioning someone for something.
If I had known that I'd have never taken that commission on. The money needs to be coming from YOU. This get's me into trouble with your mother, and of course I can be legitametly taken into extreme trouble with money owed to a PARENT.

[vexinglyyours.livejournal.com]

This is both disappointing and somehow I could have seen this happening. I tried to contact them about getting a commission from them years ago, and I got the okay to give refs and I did, but they never responded or even told me how much it'd cost. :( Their art is really nice. It's a shame to see that they don't communicate well for business transactions.

[shukivengeance.livejournal.com]

Similar situation here, DH accepted my commission but communication dropped entirely before payment took place.

Thankfully I didn't lose anything other than some wasted time, but yeah like you said I saw something like this being a strong possibility too.

[deadlyhabitual.livejournal.com]

If I owe you anything please send me a message and I will gladly refund you as to the best of my abilities and work. At the time now I am not taking any commissions at all other than the work I owe from four months of inactivity. Please feel free to make comments and complaints etc directed to my FA inbox and I will try to respond.

I am at a computer lab so that is why i am able to type. I apologize for future mistypes etc in forewarding a response.

[trunchbull.livejournal.com]

Is anyone considering the possibility that if an artist is 85% finished with the artwork, and the commissioner cancels the commission, they'd be royally screwed out of their money AND time? Say, the artist shows the commissioner a thumbnail of the 85% completed work (where they only need to shade in the background), and while the commissioner like the art/approved after being shown the sketch, line art, and flat colors, they want a refund after being shown the 85% completed commission.

Do you think it's fair that the commissioner receive a FULL REFUND for cancelling the commission at 85%?

Even without a TOS, and citation of sources regarding the legality of this situation, it can come down to morals. Is it ethical to ask for a refund when one has been happy with a commission up to a certain point, where they ask for a refund? Whether it is done to harm the artist, or simple lack of interest, I believe that an artist should be refunded based on the amount of work they have completed IF the COMMISSIONER has initiated the request for a refund. This would not apply if the ARTIST had initiated the request to refund the commissioner (say, because they lost interest or can't complete the drawing). Then, the commissioner would receive a full refund.

[angelofgeek.livejournal.com]

Don't get me wrong, I would love it if she told me she was almost finished with the art AND showed me she was, my main issue with her is that she has not once messaged me explaining if she can or can not continue it. I saw her online on furcadia yesterday, I didn't message her because I was busy, but I did check fur affinity to see if she had checked the messages, and they are still sitting unread, and I am still sitting without an email back.

REPLY

[deadlyhabitual.livejournal.com]

and also never be afraid to message me, you could have messaged me on furc and I would have kindly replied to you at the best of my ability. And all your inbox messages were read however due to my keyboard they were not replied to.

[shukivengeance.livejournal.com]

This is a case where the artist is not showing they're willing to finish or even communicate, so it should be considered a cancellation on their part.

[millislim.livejournal.com]

If this were any other transaction? Like, say, a window replacement...would a 100% refund not be appropriate? If I hire someone to install a window in my house...removes the old one but never finishes the job...leaves all the supplies what am I supposed to do with it? Yes, they spent time to start the project and even money on the supplies but plans and parts does not a window make. If the contractor wants to recoop the cost they can try and sell the bits they purchased and eat the cost of time lost. Where this whole thing gets muddy is no TOS and no deadlines...so maybe the real argument is how long is too long to wait? I doubt anyone would argue that if my window scenario stretched out for weeks that I would deserve 100% of my money back to have the job done properly. Just because the fandom is more lax about things like this doesn't mean it shouldn't be held to the same standards of customized work. Falling off the planet and lack of communication sounds like a closed business and those that were left behind should be given their money back.

This is a perfect example of why artists should have a TOS and commissioners should ask about deadlines and refunds BEFORE pen touches paper...it avoids SOOO much of these kinds of things

FYI: I am an artist on FA

[nakoothetauren.livejournal.com]

Wow.
This is a perfect example of the things that can be wrong with this community. Everyone reads to much into everything.

Other than that, as you the commissioner are the one terminating the contract the artist should get compensation for time worked. You are paying for a service, not a finished product as so many have stated. Perhaps 5 months is long enough a time to count the contract void on the artist behalf? I live somewhere where the laws just wouldn't apply to your situation so I will not quota anything. The statute of limitations in your area may be very different to mine. I mean most Statutes are around 5 years.

REPLY :)

[deadlyhabitual.livejournal.com]

Hello I am Dani aka Deadlyhabitual on FA and I was bought to my attention about this blog. I am not an untruthful person and not trying to put myself in a light where I am labled as wrong...

Now my lack of contact has been for three reasons:

My laptop keyboard is shot, I cannot type and the only way I am able to communicate at all is by going to the computer lab where I am now to post this reply. The internet is extremely shotty here and very unstable. Not only this but the keyboard wireless is also broke.

Art is my only source of income and being unable to type makes for extremely slow responses as well as horrible typing, only down to one worded replies:

I stream daily if I can. Now the mac's keyboard issue is a issue not covered by the manufacturers warranty. The issue is dealing with the cable that reads the key inputs under the battery compartment. and is a very very common problem that costs $180-$250 depending on that model. Money, I do not have paying off $60k in student loans.

The other issue is the breaking of my tablet pen which is not covered by wacom's warranty. Thusly I was forced to close all my commissions and my FA because I was completely without communication and owable to my commissioners.

Dagger was extremely kind enough to allow me to buy a new pen with HER commission money to allow me to draw again. Everyone who saw my live stream in May knew of my keyboard and tablet pens being shot. And I posted two journals on it.

My commissions are still closed, and I will be catching up of four works inactivity. HOWEVER. You did not state this was money borrowed from your mother till you told me after in a message to me sometime of this early month. If I had known this was BORROWED money esp from a parent and esp from a TAX refund I would have NEVER taken on such a commission. I would never take a parent's money...this said I will still do you the portrait if you would like and as well as refund the $45 dollars to your mother as you have requested me, but I cannot take money from any commissioner that it is not LEGITAMETLY their's...it gets me into trouble and is horrible practice and I will not do it.

I thank you however for kindly commissioning me, and I am extremely sorry for the inconvienence and terrible business practice and your wait. But real life things happen, most of which is beyond our control.

Thank you all for your concern and talk and I will do my best to get that money to you within the next few weeks. Ontop of that other works I must finish due to my broken pen.

Thank you all, and happy arting.

Re: soo..

[sigilgoat.livejournal.com]

Are you attempting to make also make a beware on this artist? I've screened your post and encourage you to read the user info (here - http://artists-beware.livejournal.com/profile ) to go through the proper channels to make a beware on our community.