Beware: TwilightSaint

[chiendanois.livejournal.com]

WHO: TwilightSaint

WHERE: http://www.furaffinity.net/user/twilightsaint/ and http://twilightsaint.deviantart.com/

WHEN: 19th-22nd of July

WHAT: I was looking for artists to commission, and one of my friends mentioned it was easy to find people on FurAffinity thanks to the ads. This was how I found TwilightSaint. I read her Terms of Service, which at the time appeared to be fine, and skimmed through her gallery before I signed up and sent her a note. This is the first time I have commissioned an artist, and I did not know exactly what they would like in terms of references and descriptions. The entirety of our conversation is included below the cut:



(EDIT: You might have to right-click and open these images in a new tab to make them easier to read)




These were the reference images I included in my note:
Great Dane: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-vgDtI6yZ4VE/TvOXFvgsJBI/AAAAAAAAA04/er2CoVzM1-Y/s1600/Great_Dane_Brindle.jpg
Collar: http://www.all-about-pitbull-dog-breed.com/images/large/braided-leather-dog-collar_LRG.jpg

I did fear my description was a lacking, but when she told me it was perfect I was relieved. Her Terms of Service (under the Edits-header) do state the following:



... and I did feel a little worried when a preview sketch wasn't included (except for at an extra cost), but since my references were clear, I believed this would go smoothly.  On July 21st I received a shout on my userpage with a link to the finished image:



I was disappointed--this is clearly brown, not brindle. She had, however, included this in the image's tags:



I sent her a note clarifying that my character's coat was indeed brindle, and received a somewhat curt and annoyed reply (you can see this in the note conversation further up). I went back to look at the drawing again in case I had missed some subtler details. I did not see any traces of brindle--however, I did notice the following:

- He is looking up to the left, not straight ahead
- The collar is sloppily drawn (especially the braided patterns) and missing details, and the buckle is silver, not brass.
- She had made this reply to a commenter of hers:



I found that in extremely bad taste. This was a mistake on her part, not mine. I was polite in my request for a change, but it sounds like I am a difficult customer at this point. I decided not to mention this to her in my reply, in case she would decide to be petty against me (and at this time I did feel this was not out of her league). Come July 22nd, and I receive another shout on my page with an updated image:



... I just... I have no word for how lazily this is done. She just slapped a completely flat texture on the drawing. My character now looks like a plank. I have not communicated further with her beyond this, because I am terribly disappointed, both in what I received and how I was treated. She ignored my references and complained about me to another watcher of hers. I wish I had done more research on her before I commissioned her.

Bottom line: Her turnaround was quick, but that is the only statement from her ad I found to be correct. The art was not high quality, and the communication was anything but excellent. While I only paid $20 for this icon, it did feel like a complete waste of my money. 

Comments

(frozen)

[oceandezignz.livejournal.com]

While I know your actions are noble, we ask people to do this kind of thing behind closed doors (aka PMs and such).

[norsepaw.livejournal.com]

People have to pay her 5-10$ extra to see the sketch of the commission? Now thats just wrong and to me I see a huge flashing red flag just for that.

And yeah even for an icon its lazy, filters dont solve anything really.

[norsepaw.livejournal.com]

Seems she use alot of the same base for most of her canine icons.

Edit:
more then the canines, most of her icons and badges are pretty much drawn over with few changes. wonder if all her customers know this or they think they got original art.

[oceandezignz.livejournal.com]

I've never seen a Great Dane turn into a tree like that before... And I hope never again. I am so sorry this was your experience with Twilight. Its obvious she didn't try at all on this. The 'tude isn't helping her either.

If she didn't know how to/think she could pass off a believable brindle, she shouldn't have taken this icon.

[zackfig.livejournal.com]

"I've never seen a Great Dane turn into a tree like that before... "

Ok, that made me LOL so hard, I spilled a drink on my desk >.

[aerospiritual.livejournal.com]

Wow. Yeah, I think having to pay to see a preview sketch of a commission is a bit of a warning sign to begin with. Lazily slapping on a texture is inexcusable, especially when it wouldn't have been a great deal of effort to actually do the brindle patterning properly- the first image doesn't even look brindled in the least.

[kasune.livejournal.com]

I can understand certain artists saying you must ask for a WIP/preview shot, but not having to pay for one! IMO that's ridiculous. I'm so sorry your experience with this transaction wasn't too great. The attitude really shows and so does the laziness.

[kadaria.livejournal.com]

I can understand that coat patterns can be tricky sometimes but...Dude brindle is like tiger stripes. I can't believe she gave you an obviously solid colored icon and was like "here ya go, it's brindle because it says so in the keywords." I also like how looking striaight ahead is now a 3/4 turn portrait because it says so in the information.
Im sorry that this happened to you!

[klippybluefox.livejournal.com]

Fully agreed, this seems lazy. :c There is no way either of the icons can be considered brindle, but she was aware because of the tags... It looks deliberate somehow, and I don't see how it could be anything else. If it were an honest mistake I'd understand, but then why the texture job?

Initially I thought the same thing about the POV, but he does specify 3/4 view; he just asked for him to be looking straight ahead from his perspective, instead of sorta up at the sky like he is in her icon.

[duster.livejournal.com]

I think I've used that exact texture before. For paper.

The charge to see a sketch is just ugh, the snippy comment afterwards makes it worse. It just really seems like she doesn't care at all about her work and if an artist doesn't have their heart in their work, I don't have my money in their work.

[sleetfury.livejournal.com]

99% sure it's a default photoshop texture. I think I used it once when I was 12 for blood splatter.

[darkunisha.livejournal.com]

Ehh...I cringed upon seeing the 'newer' icon. If she had broken the wood texture up, then it would of been a bit better...or looked around on DA, there are a number of tiger stripe brushes that would of worked.

That is disappointing to see, and sorry to see that you had to go through this. :c And the fact that you had to pay to see a 'wip'...that's a big no no for me.

[sapphistscot.livejournal.com]

The 'brindle' texture really does look like she's just applied a woodgrain effect to the entire head then erased it from the muzzle, it doesn't look like brindling at all. Would definitely never do business with this girl.

[kayla-la.livejournal.com]

In all of my years, I have never, ever heard of a 'pay me for the privilege of looking at a WIP!' policy. Never. I've heard of people not providing WIPs, or only if you ask, but not straight up charging for it.

And I honestly think it might have taken her longer to find a texture and put it on there then it would have taken to do some brindling by hand. It's REALLY EASY as far as markings go.

[skanrashke.livejournal.com]

To be fair, the image of a brindle GD you linked, the head DOES look brown. If I didnt know what 'brindle' meant(I didn't, until our neighbor got a brindle pibble a few years ago), i would've probably just gone with a brown slightly lighter than the muzzle with a few highlight spots, too.

Maybe a clearer reference picture would have helped.

[chiendanois.livejournal.com]

I was ready to provide her with more reference if she needed it, but when she said that my references were perfect, I assumed she knew what I was looking for.

[sand-ninja07.livejournal.com]

When it comes to progress pictures, I require my clients to mention upfront if they want them so I will know what to expect while working on the piece. Otherwise, I will only be taking pictures of the completed product prior to shipment.

This saves me time in the long run since most of my clients are okay with only seeing pictures of the completed piece. I do, however, get the occasional client who is very particular and will request that I send them progress pictures so they will be able to ask for changes while I am working on the piece (if any changes are needed).

However, it has never crossed my mind to charge extra for the progress pictures themselves. I am even willing to make the first few requested changes on the piece for free, as long as they do not go beyond the original agreement.

Also, just because a client wants to see progress pictures does not necessarily mean that changes will be "inevitably requested". It is simply a possibility that can be minimized if you put some effort into your work. I have had a few clients who requested progress pictures and then went on to say that they loved what I had done so far.

As others have stated, that policy alone would have raised some red flags for me. It sounds to me like she knows that she does not put a lot of effort into her work. Why else would she think that changes will be "inevitably requested"?

-A-chan

[sheepilyy.livejournal.com]

I'm just saying I don't think a preview sketch would have helped you at all in the case. Most people I know don't lay down flats for sketches, so as a result, chances are, you wouldn't have seen this problem coming even if you had paid for the preview.
I mean maybe she adds the colors to sketch, but in most cases I just think it is a flat image, without colors. I mean looking through her gallery it looks like the sketches don't have color of them.

I'm sorry that happened to your OP. It is frustrating when I see things like this. I feel bad.
I'll be honest, I would have most likely made the same mistake (In fact I wasn't even sure what brindle was, so I'm sure I would have had to ask about that as well in your first note OTL I'm just dumb). However I don't think her response was appropriate or her comment.

I hope you get an updated version of what you wanted, or at least find a different artist to work with that would be willing to work with you and brindle coats!

[thaily.livejournal.com]

If you click the tag with her name you'll see she also "heavily references" other people's work, which is likely to blame for the fast turn around and the low quality.

I promise you the ads -are- a pretty good place to find artists.
You might also want to check to see if said artist is a member of the "trustedartists" group as well as checking the tags here in AB before you commission someone else.

I'm sorry you had to deal with her -_-

[thaily.livejournal.com]

Also it's not that hard to fake brindle with a few layers of filters. The wood grain is just lazy beyond words.

[unicorn-magic.livejournal.com]

Oh dear. Definitely agree that the brindle pattern was not clear in the original picture and the remake was carelessly done.

I'm a little hesitant to point this out and I hate being a devil's advocate but I keep re-reading the comment they left under your picture and I'm not totally convinced it was meant as a slight against you. By "not a treat, I already have to edit it" the artist might have meant "this has been a difficult drawing and I seem to have screwed up already" which isn't the same thing as "what an annoying customer how dare they ask for an edit." If that makes sense? Personally I'm inclined to give the artist the benefit of the doubt since the rest of the interactions I'm looking at are within reasonable parameters of politeness. The shout they left on your userpage was friendly enough as well.

[tartii.livejournal.com]

^THIS thankyou.

I don't see anything wrong with an artist expressing how its a little disappointing they have to go back and edit something.


Also, I am very disappointed in some comments discussing how she 'didn't draw a GD well' or 'you can't even tell its a GD.'

Look at the rest of the artists gallery. Look at how she does canines. It is clear they are not her strong point, and it is clear there is a recurring theme. Know who you are commissioning, know what they are doing and what you are going to get.

As for the texture slapped on like that....it is extremely lazy and those are definite points against her. If it were me I would definitely persue that to be edited.

(frozen)

[artic-dragoness.livejournal.com]

While the work wasn't the best (especially after the texture, jeez), I'm seconding the know-your-artist thing. She mainly draws dragons, with a few wolves/foxes on the side. While I'm no expert, her non-dragon anatomy bugs me.

I would have paid a little more and gotten something from someone like Wolf-Nymph or oCe, who both are talented at drawing many species and have a reasonable turnaround time.

[cathzcathz.livejournal.com]

I wish you could of given a clearer reference, not a dog in the snow. Of course it's gonna be hard to see the facial patterns when snow is messing with the lens of the camera.

I had to take a closer look at the face, some artists don't give time to do that. It'd a waste for them. And I don't think the expression strikes stern to me.

Brindle, is considered "tiger striped" but what you see as the stripes is the dark coloring then it mixes with lighter shades of brown or whatever color the coat comes in.

She did do a lazy job at her attempts to fix the brindle. That's about all I see the problem, her comment didn't seem offending. She doesn't do a lot of canines, by she means a treat.

[tealmoonxiv.livejournal.com]

That texture would only be appropriate if the dog was made of wood.

It must have taken her less than two seconds to do that.
Heck starting up the art program probably took longer.

[dreamlordthowra.livejournal.com]

Ugh. She's following me on dA.
I knew I smelled a smelly smell when I clicked on her page when I got the watch notification.
My friend has a brindle boxer and the texture isn't even what brindle looks like! It looks like a wood texture just slapped on on a layer above with lowered opacity. Her attitude. Ew. I'm sorry you had to go through this. And why should she have to charge for preview shots? A couple of photoshop printscreens is very effective I've found. Very bad taste on her part.

[kerstin-orion.livejournal.com]

"smelled a smelly smell" is crossing the line regarding personal insults. Please do not use derogatory language like that here.

[aerospiritual.livejournal.com]

I don't know how people are saying that the brindle pattern isn't clear in the reference picture.

I look at that picture and I can distinctly make out brindle on the neck and and face, and that is at a quick glance. But maybe that's just the power of suggestion working in my favor because the client specifically points out that their character's coat is brindle as well.

And even then, the reference picture being unclear is a weak argument at best because the client asks if they need to share more references or if the one they provided was sufficient. If the artist had an issue seeing the brindle pattern that the client specifically points out in their description, they should have asked. They should have asked if the patterning covered the face or not, they should have asked for an image that wasn't in the snow, they should have asked for something at a higher resolution so that they could better see the detail.

I fail to see how this is the client's fault when they ask if the reference imagery is suitable and the artist confirms that it is "perfect". It's a little hard to provide new reference imagery or even know if the one you have shown isn't good enough when the artist says that it's fine.

[spytdragonfyre.livejournal.com]

I agree about not providing more references, but I can see how someone might not see the brindle pattern on the picture given. It is a bit faint on the face, but still. If someone told me to draw a brindle pattern, and I didn't know what brindle was, I'd look it up to make sure I got it right. Even when commissioners give me specific refs I always double check with other art done if I'm not sure about certain things.

(frozen)

[evan-balot.livejournal.com]

This is why I will only work with artists who are willing to stream their commission with me. That way I can watch every step. Edits can be made on the spot and not after the fact if it were streamed.

That's my advice to the OP on avoiding lazy artists. If they aren't willing to stream, don't work with them.

(frozen)

[oceandezignz.livejournal.com]

Not every digital artist is capable of running most streaming software on their systems to hold a stream. If that's your pref to only buy from those who can, fine. But don't blast those who cannot. You can get good OR bad service either way, as this community has taught me.

[evan-balot.livejournal.com]

"This is why I will only work with artists who are willing to stream their commission with me. That way I can watch every step. Edits can be made on the spot and not after the fact if it were streamed.

That's my advice to the OP on avoiding lazy artists. If they aren't willing to stream, don't work with them."

I apologize for this comment. My wording was awful at best. It was in no way to mean that all artists who do not stream are lazy. You say something, you mean it one way (in my case, as helpful advice), and it comes out as probably one of the worst things you can say to a community of artists. Wonderful for a first comment, right? In actuality, I appreciate the hard work artists put in for their commissioners regardless of whether or not they stream.

What I do mean to say is that when you have an artist who can and is willing to stream, then you can avoid mishaps like the one shown by OP. With streaming, you can watch a commission being done every step of the way and if the color was off, "Hey, can you make the dog more brindle and less brown?" The fix can be made in a matter of minutes, sometimes seconds.

Edit: That and watching your commission being done every step of the way is fun in and of itself. At least, to me it is.

[spiffystuff.livejournal.com]

Sorry but overall I don't see the artist doing anything wrong here aside from the edit - the icon looks about on par with her other icons, if you didn't like them then don't get one? The TOS also says ahead of time what her policies on WIPS are, and unlike others I do understand why someone might do that with icons and cheaper commissions.

Were there one or two ill-phrased things, such as the "inevitable edits" part in the TOS and the "treat" comment to another person? I guess, but I don't see those as dealbreakers/wrong, just not very guarded.

About the only thing is the pattern - yeah brown is not brindle and the slapped-on effect looks pretty bad and slapped on. Not sure why the artist couldn't have taken 5 extra minutes to change the angle a few times, or else just airbrush a few yellow stripes on.

[sapphistscot.livejournal.com]

It looks like the artist has now removed all references to a charge for progress shots from her TOS (http://www.furaffinity.net/full/9693358/), since I can't find any of the text in the OP's screencap above in it. And on her front page under 'General Commission Information' it says she can provide progress shots if requested with no mention of there being a charge for this.

[jemindra.livejournal.com]

I think because of this beware post and the previous, it seems TwilightSaint is noting everyone who has commissioned her a few times before for some commissioner reviews.

Mainly about giving her refs and whatnot.

While I did commission her a few times before, there was some things she had missed and told her about it and she did go back to fix but like... Well, idk how to describe it. I was partially happy with the finished product. Not entirely sure if I may commission her sometime in the future.

[oceandezignz.livejournal.com]

Hope she's not trying for those reviews to show up here in our reviews post...