Customer issues

[bliskwhiskers.livejournal.com]

WHO: Anatasha (FA: http://www.furaffinity.net/user/anatasha)

WHERE: On my business page http://www.furaffinity.net/user/~interrobang~/

WHAT: 2 To be made fursuit heads on sale for $250 each, on a payment plan.
Order: http://i1288.photobucket.com/albums/b493/TheKittensKataz/Initalorder_zps25b56f1c.jpg I apologies for the mistypes on my end, I use a phone for most of my internet dealings

WHEN & PROOF: (See above link) Payment was sent the same day as the inquiry
Payment 1-http://i1288.photobucket.com/albums/b493/TheKittensKataz/1_zps95b836bc.jpg as well as Payment 2- http://i1288.photobucket.com/albums/b493/TheKittensKataz/2_zps1c0c7649.jpg also on the first day (May 20th)
Payment 3- http://i1288.photobucket.com/albums/b493/TheKittensKataz/3_zps534a6155.jpg
Payment 4- http://i1288.photobucket.com/albums/b493/TheKittensKataz/4_zps8ff4e39f.jpg
Payment 5- http://i1288.photobucket.com/albums/b493/TheKittensKataz/5_zps0a1449b7.jpg

I then received an email asking if the suit could be done by a certain date, as stated in my Terms of Service I do not accept due dates at this time (Link to my TOS http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/4449319/) http://i1288.photobucket.com/albums/b493/TheKittensKataz/Inqury_zps3088e2f4.png
I am afraid I did not reply back after the note here stating if it was or was not doable.

A little while after that I received this note: http://i1288.photobucket.com/albums/b493/TheKittensKataz/Requestnote_zpscd99a274.png

Three days later they filed a dispute with paypal for every payment they had made
1. http://i1288.photobucket.com/albums/b493/TheKittensKataz/D1_zps5071cbd2.png
2. http://i1288.photobucket.com/albums/b493/TheKittensKataz/D2_zps8d1b4f50.png
3. http://i1288.photobucket.com/albums/b493/TheKittensKataz/D3_zpsef6c9fae.png
4. http://i1288.photobucket.com/albums/b493/TheKittensKataz/D4_zps8eab5d61.png
5. http://i1288.photobucket.com/albums/b493/TheKittensKataz/D5_zps5b4a6fd4.png

After the dispute was settled in my favor because Paypal does not cover items to be made the customer sent an invoice to my paypal: http://i1288.photobucket.com/albums/b493/TheKittensKataz/Invoice_zps3cd97899.jpg I cancelled the invoice and sent a note stating that their refund would be sent on Aug 1st

Proof of refund on Aug 1st http://i1288.photobucket.com/albums/b493/TheKittensKataz/Refund_zpseede9670.jpg

I also sent an email with the order review shortly after the Paypal refund.
http://i1288.photobucket.com/albums/b493/TheKittensKataz/refundemail_zpseaa8152e.jpg

I then received this email in reply to my refund email
http://i1288.photobucket.com/albums/b493/TheKittensKataz/Finalemail_zps32ba5bf4.png




EXPLAIN:
It all began with the customer taking two of my sale offers on a payment plan, ice cream themed puppies, I and another artist had designed, $250 per head, unfortunately I no longer have the sale posts.
Order overview:
Head 1 Neapolitan Pup- $250.00
Head 2 Mint Chip Pup - $250.00
Total order cost $500.00
Total mount paid in $250.00
Amount of nonrefundable deposit $190.00
Refund amount $60.00

The customer paid off one head ($250 total) via a payment plan which you can see above
After I received a few payments I ordered supplies. Stated in my TOS I do not start work until I get $190-$325 depending on the order, for this order of two heads, each deposit is $190 which is a nonrefundable deposit, also clearly laid out in my TOS. When I get an order and the deposit, the very first thing I do is buy every bit of supplies I need and set them aside in its own spot so when I am ready to get started, it is right there waiting. So I order the fur, the resin bases, picked up the foam, plastic, glue, thread, and fabric dye (to stay true to the ice cream colors I was going to have to dye the fur to get the desired shades) On June 11th the customer asked if the first head could be done by July 1st, in which I replied that it was rather soon and that I would have to see if it could be done. I admit I did not send a note back stating if I could or if I could not get the head done by the first.

Three weeks later the customer contacted me needing a refund due to vet costs(Please see above) which I understand, I have fuzzy babies too. No problem, I told the person a refund was fine, but it will be minus the cost of the supplies. I heard nothing back until one day I was doing something unrelated online and saw Paypal disputes for each payment the person made. I have never had to deal with anything like this before. The customer claimed that the order was to be done by July 1st, however, in my TOS it states that I do not accept due dates at this time. I called paypal and explained that this was a custom order/ something to be made, and that I had a TOS and such. The very nice paypal lady made note of all of this and also had me send an email explaining my side, my TOS, and a link to my work page. The dispute was dropped because in Paypal's user terms, they DO NOT COVER CUSTOM GOODS. Something I did not know, so I assume others do not know either.
So, still with the plans to refund the person what they paid in minus the material cost as stated in my TOS.I then received a Paypal invoice stating that if I did not pay them, they would be contacting credit cards as a last resort. Again, something I know nothing about, so I called paypal again to figure out how this would work should this person try another route to get around my TOS.
Paypal said that should this happen, they have all the dispute records on file, and their dispute department would act in my favor with all the info, including my TOS information. When I canceled the invoice the person sent me, I told them their refund would be the 1st of Aug, and again stated that their refund would be minus the nonrefundable deposit stated in my TOS, and also linked them to my TOS. Paypal said when I do issue a refund, to make it as detailed as possible so should it go to a bigger dispute, they could keep me protected. Sadly you can only put down 300 characters in the paypal payment notes, so when I issued the refund I was only able to recap the order in brief, so I then wrote an email with a recap of the order in full, which can be seen above.

Thank you for reading, any input is greatly appreciated
~BW

Comments

[neolucky.livejournal.com]

Hi! I posted your beware, however would you mind placing this behind an LJ cut =) as it is quite long.

Thanks!

[bliskwhiskers.livejournal.com]

I truthfuly have no clue how to do that T-T I use LJ very little

[oceandezignz.livejournal.com]

Hi, as creator of the Beware Template, I intentionally included instructions on the page for how to install an LJ-cut into your pages. :) Its all in there.

[bliskwhiskers.livejournal.com]

Alrighty, thank you, when I get my buddies laptop again I will fix that ^_^

[lackoflollies.livejournal.com]

Sounds like someone needs to learn what a Terms of Service is.

[chronidu.livejournal.com]

This is just a curiosity thing since I didn't see anything mentioning it, but did you offer to mail them the supplies you got for their suit when you refunded them?

[icedtei.livejournal.com]

This is what I was wondering as well..

[bliskwhiskers.livejournal.com]

I did not, but it is an open option of course

[dragontripmon.livejournal.com]

Actually from their FA page they are suspended but then there's this journal on their mate's page. Which I can see already it's not going to end well.
http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/4888335/

[mazz.livejournal.com]

If I were the OP I would report that to staff as a false/slanderous call out journal and link staff to the proof (I.e. here) they were refunded for all but the NON-REFUNDABLE DEPOSIT!

[bliskwhiskers.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I saw that, but thought it best to just leave it be.

[mazz.livejournal.com]

I'd offer to send them the supplies since they paid for them but not a refund of the purchase price for these materials.

[bliskwhiskers.livejournal.com]

As long as they cover shipping, which may seem harsh, but I personaly dont see it any different than having to cover for shipping for a finished suit.

[celestinaketzia.livejournal.com]

I thought it was generally the norm to send the items purchased with the deposit back? Obviously there's no reason why she should receive the full $250, but I would have thought that'd be what has to happen. After all, it is her funds that paid for the supplies. I'm not sure what the "norm" is for who handles shipping as I don't do fursuits.

However this behavior on her part is way out of line, so thank you for posting!

[scratchkitty.livejournal.com]

I don't know about others, but for me, the deposit is not refundable because while yes, it -physically- pays for materials, it also pays for all the planning and design work that goes into a project before I even buy half the materials. If I send materials to them, I expect some money to pay for that work. Otherwise, the materials themselves are that payment because i can either use them or sell them to cover that lost time.

So IMO, if the TOS says nonrefundable, then that is what they agreed to before any payments were made.

[celestinaketzia.livejournal.com]

Aaah, like I said, I don't do fursuits so the explanation is definitely helpful!

[zaulankris.livejournal.com]

Pretty much. It's not just to pay for the materials, it's covering the maker's time spent planning/talking to the client to iron out the design/researching new techniques, storing the materials in your home, turning away other people, etc.

[bliskwhiskers.livejournal.com]

Never thought of it that way. Thank you for the input

[kayla-la.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure about accepted etiquette, but I'd expect that whoever cancels would pay shipping, in this case the commissioner.

[oceandezignz.livejournal.com]

Your beware is valid, but I have a few issues here...

You admit you did not correspond with the client when they made mentions of due dates. While yes, your ToS says you do not do due dates, you needed to tell them that as well, because in my mind, you not responding is... acceptance to them. This is how I see that.

I also see them asking for that as a big red flag they didn't read your ToS, or if they did it was a gloss over meaning they did not get it, thus their need to dispute and invoice you.

In the future you need to try and make sure your clients are aware of your policies, and if they email you about something you do NOT do, don't let it slide and/or don't say later 'I'll try/See what I can do' because that's another 'yes' to them.

TL;DR: Always always clarify and communicate with clients over things they may or may not have read in your ToS before money exchanges hands, etc. Be careful with 'maybes' because to some a maybe IS a yes.

[bliskwhiskers.livejournal.com]

Thank you kindly for the input, and I agree that I dropped the ball there for sure.

[timelapsedecay.livejournal.com]

Following up what oceandezignz said. I'm inclined to believe much of this could have been avoided if you got back to your client.
It's also obvious she didn't fully read the TOS, despite being directed to it for payment reasons, so that much is on her.
I would say to be sure in the future to communicate clearly with customers, and to be firm when you need to (I would have told her right away about the deadline clause in my TOS, if it were me)

[bliskwhiskers.livejournal.com]

I agree with you fully, I plan to be more attentive in the future

[epiceternity.livejournal.com]

Seems to be a case of not reading the TOS properly. Though you might want to make the non-refundable deposit
bit a little more clearer/obvious as it is a little easy to miss that if just skim reading the TOS.

Oh my, that last reply from her. What does being 'a cancer patient' have to do with this transaction? Fursuit heads don't cure cancer as far as i'm aware. Such a random guilt trip device.

Ad for the legal threat, her mother as a Lawyer should know- he who has the best paperwork wins. As the non-refundable deposit is written in your TOS that she was reminded to read, then she doesn't have a leg to stand on.

One thing though, in that last reply, the commissioner mentions that she's under the belief that the heads were pre-mades rather than custom made. Do you know why that is? (Sorry, can't see that being discussed in the transactions unless i've missed it)

The only other thing I can suggest beyond sending her the materials is either re-selling or re-using the materials on another commission so you can give her an partial refund on those to help smooth the way.

[bliskwhiskers.livejournal.com]

The heads were to be made. Another artist and I came up with the designs to "adopt" and have made into a suit.

[wolf-goat.livejournal.com]

To be fair about the "cancer patient" remark: when living with a serious/chronic disease it does make people more emotionally strained, and can leave people feeling more victimized than normal (we have "why is all this happening to me?!" moments a lot). So I would try to exercise a little understanding on this front if the commissioner is genuinely sick rather than seeing it as a purely manipulative device.

[epiceternity.livejournal.com]

That's okay, I myself have several permanent chronic illnesses which regularly leaves me bedridden so I totally understand and sympathise with anyone who is struggling through a serious illness!

My issue is that it's never mentioned at any point in the transaction or indicted as being relevant to the commission. It's the way it's just tacked on the end of that last email that seems guilt trippy. I have to confess that part of myself is a little jaded as I've seen the 'I have cancer' thing used to guilt trip by people begging for free furry stuff etc about 8 or 9 times now. I've even had someone try that on me (who didn't have cancer but used it to serial beg) so i'm a little wary of it.

So sorry if my comment seemed a little callous, it wasn't intended to be. Cancer and it's treatments are really awful to go through.

[neolucky.livejournal.com]

It's kind of obvious the "cancer patient" line was used as a form of guilt trip. I simply cannot sympathize with anyone who uses their illness as a form to get what they want. I don't do it, nor do many other people with disabilities. It's just plain not cool.

I understand where you're coming from, believe me. But it's absolutely not right for anyone to guilt trip another with something like that. I would be far more tolerant of it if it wasn't used as a quip to try and hurt the artists feelings at the end of an email.

[sableantelope.livejournal.com]

I just want to mention one legal thing for buyers to be aware of: deposits are always considered non-refundable in contracts; even when not specified as such in the contract.
So the seller here does not have to specify- although that helps their customer who may not know the law.
(when you do have to specify is on refundable desposits- ie: rent a storage locker, and you get the key deposit back when you turn in the key)

So once you are paying a 'deposit', you can assume as a buyer that money is gone.

This of course goes out the window if the seller breaks the contract- that's a whole other ballgame. But as a buyer, once you see the term 'deposit' assume it's non-refundable even if the contract does not specify.


So buyers- be careful of payment plans to word you payments and your agreement with the seller as such- a 'payment' not a 'deposit'.

[artic-dragoness.livejournal.com]

Seconding making the non-refundable deposit thing more clear, perhaps having it's own section? Also would be good to add if you are willing to send materials after a refund for shipping costs in your TOS.

Thanks for pointing out the custom goods thing on Paypal. I'm going to read up on it.

[lackoflollies.livejournal.com]

Normally this isn't something I do, but Anatasha's mate posted a journal saying ~Interrobang was a fraud, and two members of A_B replied with links to this article. Not sure that's exactly kosher, or allowed.

http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/4888335/

[kerstin-orion.livejournal.com]

No, it's not Ok, and I took screenshots to review later. Thank you for pointing it out!

[anatasha-snolf.livejournal.com]

Wow so I finally saw this. I'm not making any excuses, I said what I said and there it is. I did ask for it to be completed after a certain date, I didn't see a TOS section and I was NOT directed towards the TOS section, after my question about the finish date was unanswered . If she had told me after I asked about a completion date that she doesn't take due dates I would have understood completely. My dog ended up getting shot, I had to pay for a surgery to remove bullets out of her leg and for antibiotics, and pain meds.
On top of all that there were periods of silence, look at the date on the messages. So honestly the periods of silence, and basically feeling ignored, plus my dog being shot, and the fact that I am going through chemo and renal failure, yes I was emotional, but I feel I was justified.
Also I feel if I'm on here Blisk should be as well, due to a lack of communication that could've solved all of this.