Beware - Ahimsa

[catso-san.livejournal.com]

Update, see bottom.

Second update, see below previous.

Third update regarding how this can be resolved, at the bottom.

http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/4997382

Who: Ahimsa/Heavily Weighted

Where: http://www.furaffinity.net/user/ahimsa/ or http://heavilyweighted.deviantart.com/

What: A colored group drawing.

When: July 29th to August 25th/ongoing (Commish posted, though not to my specs)



Proof: http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/4997382 Or if the journal is taken down: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9942731/evidence/ahimsa/ahimsajournal.PNG https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9942731/evidence/ahimsa/myretorttojournal.PNG The links go to: http://www.furaffinity.net/view/11353702/ http://www.furaffinity.net/view/11454302/

Stream posts and stream log: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9942731/evidence/ahimsa/streamjournal.PNG https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9942731/evidence/ahimsa/streamlog.txt https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9942731/evidence/ahimsa/Screenshot%20from%202013-08-12%2020_12_30.png

Notes exchanged: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9942731/evidence/ahimsa/notes.png

Explanation: This artist has been quite good in the past to be sure, and he draws a lot of multiple character images. Being in the mood to get a few pictures done of me and people close to me, I chose him as one of the artists to commission. I want a flat color, but he somehow reads that as "Cell shaded" which is pricier, but I like the artist's work, so I go with that. I pay up front, then give him the refs. Normally, he makes things really really quickly, so, after no contact for over a week, I note him, wondering when he can draw. I'm not demanding he draw on the spot, I just wanted to know when he would. He reacts hostilely, which confuses me. I clarify I'm not trying to rush him, I'm only trying to be informed. A couple days later, on his commission list, he updates mine as "lined". I ask for a WIP, no reply. A day or two later, he does the coloring stream as noted in the proof section of this post. That goes poorly as he ignores all I have to say other than one change he does implement. Then he's silent for quite a long time. I note him a week later, asking if everything is alright. No reply. Then another week later, he posts the image. Now, according to the streamlog, he declared the commish "done" two weeks back, so why didn't he post it then? He posted other images, as one can see from his FA page. Regardless, I quietly note him, saying he ignored my messages, even in the stream, and asked to have the piece fixed. He not so quietly posts a journal very directly complaining about me, because I had another image done in between him starting and him posting my piece, that was another group image with another person in. He believes I had the image done because he was taking too long, but I already wanted a couple of images of me and people close to me done. I don't even need to justify myself, what I do with my money is my business. His business is to provide what I paid for, which he didn't. I'll mark this AB as resolved if the artist apologizes for his behavior, and fixes the various issues (missing markings, facial changes, the hats, etc.).

Update, this situation is more or less not going to get resolved. The journal link up top seems to not be down, amazingly. It seems the artist thinks he really is in the right. In case it does go down, here is a PDF of the page: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9942731/evidence/ahimsa/Good%20to%20know.pdf

To sum it up, he states that showing a commissioner a WIP of an already paid piece isn't a right of the commissioner, lied about the content of my notes, then ignored the fact I showed otherwise, ignored me stating his whole reason for starting drama wasn't accurate, and he then ignores other people disagreeing with him. I am pretty sure I'm getting an improper image and a headache out of this occurrence and nothing more.

Update two, not really an update but possible clarification, me and this artist have been friendly for some time and I've purchased a fair few pieces from him, interacted with him in much the same way I did here, and even showed WIPs before. Also, if my initial note setting him off was a problem, why not refund me and refuse to do the piece? He did cease noting back, but when he streamed, he seemed amiable at first (until he flat ignored me after one fix) and merely posted that journal because I happened to get a second, unrelated group piece done (with additional characters) and he dug it up, and then flipped out quite immaturely.

I've decided in the interest of fairness, that I state three things that all need to be done at this point to resolve this AB post. One, unblocking me and publicly apologizing, as the drama was public, the apology should also be. Two, making a clear and concise ToS so future commissioners don't have the same issues as I did, and three, fixing the piece as I originally wanted.

Comments

[celestinaketzia.livejournal.com]

What a horrific attitude.

1. It's not your fault he undercharged. He can't complain about the prices that HE set.

2. WIPs are not a requirement, no, but if he doesn't intend to show them or to allow clients to ask for changes then he needs to be very clear on that from the get-go. As far as I can see he has no ToS to speak of.

[catso-san.livejournal.com]

Fun fact, back in May, I commished him, and when I asked about the progress, I got:
http://puu.sh/4dz3O.png

Amazing how cooperative he was! Also, he did indeed email the WIP that time. It started about the same, I paid up front, about a week of nothing, I asked when he'd start (not that he should start riiight nooow) and he politely told me when it'd be done, politely. I asked pretty much the exact same way , though waited a couple extra days than before, and got this sudden rudeness.

[lackoflollies.livejournal.com]

Holy SHIT how unprofessional.

[sbneko.livejournal.com]

Not excusing him what so ever, but the way you worded asking when he'd start seems...off? When I read it, it does sort of sound impatient, like "I've already paid, why haven't you started yet?". Although I'd never react like they did.

But! Perhaps a better way to word it would be, maybe: Could I have an idea on when you'd be starting? Just curious!

That's just me though! You of course totally don't have to do that.

[catso-san.livejournal.com]

Well, it's a smidge late now, also he blocked me at random, I'd not said anything since the last reply you can see on the journal, so he seemed to have just gotten around to it randomly. I only asked like that because he had been speedier before, and besides, after he reacted badly, I only turned up my polite meter and apologized for any misunderstandings, only to be ignored from there out.

[sbneko.livejournal.com]

It is late, but it's a good thing to keep in mind for future transactions.

[catso-san.livejournal.com]

I don't think I generally ask like that, I've commished a good number of people, I think I may have been nervous as ten days after paying in full with no word is a bit jarring.

[sbneko.livejournal.com]

For majority of artists, that's actually an extremely short time period. Of course, since he was faster before you'd be curious what's up, but it's always a good thing to keep things in mind. Good artists won't react how they did, but you can save them from feeling put off by your wording c:

[catso-san.livejournal.com]

I've had me some bad luck, sir or ma'am, but I'll try to step with the right foot next time.

[kamilamutt.livejournal.com]

I agree with Sbneko that it kind of bugged me the wording when you asked when the artist would start (but you said you already asked him before and he had not reacted that way)
But...

"You think others had even the SLIGHTEST privileges you did? Most of my commissioners do not see a WIP, let alone see it done in front of their face (...) you're only out about the cost of a value meal at a fast food chain, so shove that up your ass along with your future endeavors."

...Wow. This artist attitude is truly horrible, I'm sorry you had to deal with it.

(edited for typos)

[catso-san.livejournal.com]

Well, judging by this here avatar of me, but I must be totally drunk, completely explaining my roguish behavior. /kidding

Nah, I'm just curious at this point if it's a problem if I edit the piece a bit, fix the tail on one character, my glasses, etc, but still give all credit to Ahimsa.

[lakotawolf.livejournal.com]

Without getting too into detail here, you are somewhat misinformed. American copyright law states that, if the work was acquired as "work for hire" (e.g., commissioned work), the commissioner now OWNS the work and MAY edit it, wipe their nose with it, paint spaghetti sauce on it, etc. It DOES belong to the commissioner, rights-wise - the artist implicitly agreed to this by selling it as work-for-hire.

[catso-san.livejournal.com]

*headscratch* I'm unsure what to do, now.

[keaalu.livejournal.com]

I probably missed it because it's early here, but where does the artist say it's work for hire? That's a fairly unusual situation, I thought?

[lovelesskiax.livejournal.com]

Commissioned work usually isn't "work for hire", at least as far as online run-of-the-mill transactions go. The artist retains all rights to their artwork, commission or not, unless they sell the rights along with the artwork (which was not done, in this case). Otherwise, the commissioner only has personal use, not commercial or monetary use.

[sbneko.livejournal.com]

All things I've seen mention how it needs to be stated it's work for hire, it's not assumed. Commissions and work for hire are different, so rights automatically go to the artists unless stated. (just adding on to your post!)

[timelapsedecay.livejournal.com]

+1
While that might be true for most work for hire, artwork is under different rules.

[xubunturambles.livejournal.com]

seconded

[oceandezignz.livejournal.com]

In cases of work-for-hire, their is a higher cost to them as well, generally to compensate the artist for the loss of rights to the artwork.

At $9, unless the artist in question says they do not care what the OP does with the work now, the only "rights" given and that's due to what is accustomed to people in furry... are display rights.

[intj-reflection.livejournal.com]

This is a common misperception. As others have stated, commission work is not specifically work-for-hire unless outright stated.

[poptartkitty.livejournal.com]

I'd say editing someone's art is generally frowned upon unless you have permission from the artist themselves.

[catso-san.livejournal.com]

I can't really get that, as I am blocked.

[ljmydayaway.livejournal.com]

Then you can't really edit it. Sorry to be so blunt, but you just don't have the right (legally and morally) to do that. Put in the description that the parts are the wrong color and move on. :c

[catso-san.livejournal.com]

Mmm, okay.

[poptartkitty.livejournal.com]

oh I know, I'm just saying it for future reference.

[lakotawolf.livejournal.com]

You acquired the artwork as "work for hire" from the artist. This actually affords YOU the rights to the artwork:

http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap2.html

Since you commissioned the work, it's work for hire. You own the rights to it unless the artist expressly kept them. Alter the artwork, wipe your butt with it, print it and line your cat's litterbox with it - you own the rights to it.

[sbneko.livejournal.com]

This wasn't work for hire. There's info here: http://www.collegeart.org/ip/qa8

And here: http://11amdesign.co/new-blog/2013/2/18/the-difference-between-freelance-work-for-hire

[armaina.livejournal.com]

Yeah, what sbneko said
Copyright ownership is never passed unless it is explicitly expressed. Just 'hiring' someone to make something for you is not Work For Hire. Work for Hire requires a contract and/documentation in which both parties state, in writing, the project is under Work for Hire terms.

[celestinaketzia.livejournal.com]

Without a contract specifically stating it was work-for-hire, then it isn't work-for-hire. Commission work is not work-for-hire, and the artist automatically retains their copyright unless signed away.

No contract, no rights.

[catso-san.livejournal.com]

Mmmno, no ToS, and he has shown WIPs before. He also doesn't have any option higher than like 15 dollars.

[catso-san.livejournal.com]

In the past, I've communicated with him in the exact same way for three commishes, it's never been a problem before.

[timelapsedecay.livejournal.com]

Mmmh yeah I agree with the others, communication could have been more polite. "Attract more flies with honey" and all that. BUT the artist doesn't smell like roses at all either.
Idk, could have been better handled on both sides, but in the end the artist is the problem in this equation for me. Just UNACCEPTABLE attitude from them. Thanks for posting up this beware!

[houndofloki.livejournal.com]

Yeah, beware well warranted.

If you don't offer WIPs below a certain pricepoint, that's totally fine, but you should make clients aware of it in either your ToS or your communication.

9 bucks is indeed a ridiculously low price for a 3-character picture, but it's not your fault he decided to change that and he shouldn't take it out on you.

Really don't understand his journal. Why would the artist even care if you wanted to commission 2 people to draw the same concept or 356 people to draw the same concept, as long as he gets paid for his labor? It's your money.

Just a mess all over the place.

[catso-san.livejournal.com]

The one he's mad about was finished weeks before he posted his, mind, I actually commissioned the other one first, while he thinks I, uh... just snuck off to some black market to get a picture done or some such? I think it may be hurt pride, but that's none of my concern. Besides, the other artist actually showed WIPs, listened, was polite and commutative, speed was not my concern, reliability was.

[timelapsedecay.livejournal.com]

I have to admit that, as an artist that has been in this exact situation (Client commissioning multiples of a concept from me and other artists)... he read way, way too far into your actions, which should never have been his business. Even IF it was because he was being "too slow", it's YOUR business why you commission anything. It's also very common to commission multiples of one idea in this manner. So really, he's got NO leg to stand on here

[catso-san.livejournal.com]

I've actually seen a big budget flash animation... done by two animators. It was the exact same thing with the exact same ten or so characters, just a different style. Even similar poses and angles, both paid for by the same guy. No drama, no panic. Some people get aaaall the luck. ;x3

[kasune.livejournal.com]

What gets me most here is that horrible attitude and the remarks toward the OP...

Being told I'm the value of a fast food meal would make me want to spread that around everywhere. I'm hoping they lose some serious business.

You do NOT say that to your customers. EVER! Good lord!

[catso-san.livejournal.com]

Like, 9$ is kinda pricy for a value meal in my experience. Maybe accurate for two or three value meals? =U

I'm most upset that I've got a commish that's, well, wrong, and it'll never be right, and an artist I once liked, I'm now just hated by.

[karthegrax.livejournal.com]

Ugh. I am so sick of artists who use the 'you paid x amount and thats cheap so don't expect communication, me to edit mistakes I made or your picture to be done in a reasonable amount of time'. If you make a deal with someone to give them art, be it a trade, a request, or a commission, either get off your bum and do it, or at least have the common decency to explain to them why you can't.

I can see how this guy put everything together and thought you were cross at him for being slow, but I can't believe he flipped out so much. Especially in a public journal. I guess on the upside, the art having wrong details means you won't look at it often and you won't be reminded of this total clusterf of a situation. xD

[catso-san.livejournal.com]

It seems like making up details in your head and not following detailed ref sheets would be MORE effort, not less.

[dragontripmon.livejournal.com]

Actually the journal has been deleted now from what I noticed.

[catso-san.livejournal.com]

You're right! He still has me blocked. He seemed to not care about me, but he must've realized this is really bad PR, so he's trying to do damage control. The wrong way.

[dragontripmon.livejournal.com]

That's ok I saw the journal though I took a screenshot of it in case this happened. Though also that journal had advice from other artists telling him about the WIP. I really don't understand why he would delete it and still have you blocked.

[catso-san.livejournal.com]

I don't have any clue either, it seems it would be easier to just fix the problem instead of trying to smother it.