Complaining About Prices

[thejeweledhorn.livejournal.com]

Recently I had someone ask me what art they can get for $50, and once I gave them examples, they told me that they would not pay $50 for what I showed as an example. I told them several times that if they had a specific idea they could pitch it and I would give them an estimate, otherwise good luck finding what they would like with someone else. They gave me an example of art they purchased for less. I said it seems like you're beating around the bush to say that my prices are too high - it's okay if you don't want to pay it, but it's a bit of a faux pas with artists to tell them that their prices are too high. Their response is that they feel they should be able to tell artists that their prices are too high because it's a business issue, and that the general consensus is incorrect. This person feels they're entitled to share when they believe prices are too high, and I believe that me saying, "thanks, good luck with others," many times is a social cue for them to stop trying to convince me.

This person opened the discussion again on IM this morning. The gist is that they still feel it's incorrect and wanted to talk about it more. They disagreed with what I'm saying, so I suggested I put this question on A_B since it's a good place for questions about artists/commissioners interacting.

Is it okay for people to complain to the artist directly about an artist's prices being too high?

Comments

[intj-reflection.livejournal.com]

Most artists who market their art through online gallery sites undercharge for their work. As a result, commissioners seem to feel entitled to paying less for high quality artwork.

It is never polite to complain about an artist's prices. My philosophy for price-nitpickers is thus: Either save your money for something you want or find another artist who is cheating themselves out of their earning potential to do it. Don't whine.

[buttlord-mcgee.livejournal.com]

THIS.

Although it's really sad that so many artists undercharge so much.

[zydala.livejournal.com]

Is it their right to? Sure why not. Is it rude as heck for bringing it up constantly? Not even a question. Is it your right to not put up with all that nonsense? Yes.

Personally if someone did that to me I'd pretty much say "thanks for the feedback, but I'm not interested in doing business with you." They sound like they would be all kinds of headaches, even if they did pay full price for a commission from you.

EDIT: Added another sentence and edited typos, didn't delete anything :)

[slinkslowdown.livejournal.com]

Wholly agreed.

[gatekat.livejournal.com]

My opinions:

Okay to complain: never.
Saying "I can't afford that": absolutely.

Though what you described is exactly why I don't deal with artists that don't have price/results list or sheets. Saves everybody grief if I can know whether I can afford their work without direct contact and getting everyone's hope up.

If the artist asks for feedback on prices, it's okay to say they charge too much in a polite and detailed manner if you believe it. That said, I've never seen an artist who charges above average ask. It's always folks who severely undercharge IMO.

[mistresswolf.livejournal.com]

This is what I think about it too.

When I see someone with art I want, but I can't afford it or think it is too high... I will just admire their other art and wait to see if they do an Iron Artist or other sale. If they don't then too bad for me. I never would complain about their price.

A lot of the time when people whine about prices... it is because they have no idea what goes into the piece to arrive at that price. My parallel is that I am a tailor. When someone comes in and say, wants their hoodie zipper replaced, and I say it will be $39.99 they freak out. "I could just buy a NEW hoodie for that!" they complain. Well, sure you could, but it will be made overseas by someone making 5c an hour and have an inferior zipper in it. I use top quality zippers and the job takes about a half hour (at least) to do properly. They just don't know what it takes to install a new zipper and have it look professional. Then I've had the ones who have tried it themselves and know how hard it is, so they know the $39.99 is a fair price (at least for this town).

People who don't draw and also complain about prices must think that art is super easy.

[purpule.livejournal.com]

Yeeeeah no.
YOUR prices, YOUR rules.
If they don't want to pay the price of your work then they simply can't have it. You don't walk into a shop and go "oh, I only want to pay 10dollars for that 100dollar vase, and that's what I think it's worth, so you should just give it to me for that then"

That's not how the world OR business works.

There is sometimes room for haggling - but for that kind of rudeness and attempt to make you feel bad about your work? (as in; your work isn't worth that much) Yeah, no, no one has to put up with that, and you have no obligation to continue the conversation.

[celestinaketzia.livejournal.com]

Absolutely not. If you cannot afford the prices, move on to someone else you can afford.

You're not just paying for an artist's time, but also the skills that have been built up over the years.

That kind of attitude is a good way to get blacklisted from various artists and fast. I only put up with one person like this, and he was my first and only person to be blocked on SoFurry.

If someone "charges too much" the market itself will tell them through lack of sales. Even then, some artists would rather take one commission at a higher price versus three at a much lower price.

[starcharmer.livejournal.com]

Absolutely not. If you cannot afford the prices, move on to someone else you can afford.

This, with the addition of if it's really that big of a deal that you commission THAT artist, save your money?? I'm not sure why this is such a foreign concept to people. Art is a luxury item.

[dinogrrl.livejournal.com]

Sure, they can complain directly to the artist. However, I find it extremely tacky and pointless, and would never do business with someone who did that to me. If they're going to be putting up that much of a fuss over my prices, that's a pretty clear warning sign to me of how they're going to act during and after the commission, and I don't have the patience for that. At least not without me significantly raising my prices to cover my time and aggravation. :p

There's a difference between someone who complains about your prices, that so-and-so did more for less (which imho is BEYOND INSULTING to tell an artist you intend to hire), and someone who says "hey that's out of my price range, what can you do for X instead" or "I'll have to save up and come back to you later."

[funkicarus.livejournal.com]

it's NEVER okay for a commissioner (or non-payer especially) to complain your prices are too high.

if they want to say they're currently too broke to afford it, fine. but telling you you should charge less? hahaha heeeeeeeeell no.

[pinkpuppybelly.livejournal.com]

I'll say the same thing I said on FA.

Not only is it rude to argue with an artist about their prices, but in some cases it can be your ticket straight to Black List City. Spoiler alert: people that argue about my prices with me, or complain about them to me, or try and guilt me/trick me into lowering them are not people I tend take as customers.

[kayla-na.livejournal.com]

Said customer is more than welcome to find another artist that can work with their price range. :X

[sbneko.livejournal.com]

I've noticed a lot of people have this idea that it's their right to have you sit down and listen to them. Which, no, it doesn't work that way. You have the right to your opinion, you can state it (which doesn't erase rudeness), but the listener has the complete right to stop the conversation.

I've had it happen before, with prices or other things, where they get offended I'm not listening, push the matter, explaining how they have a right to their opinion. You do, but I don't have to talk about it with you or listen to it.

[starinthegutter.livejournal.com]

NO it is not okay for them to complain. The internet is full of self-entitled people who think they can just complain to get their way. Don't give it to them. If they're going to complain, then it's better not to do any business with them at all. The customer is not always right.

[tisiphone.livejournal.com]

Whenever someone tries to tell me they paid somewhat less than I would charge them for something (not artwork, but similar), I assume they're trying to get me to lower my price. There's a lot of people who do what I do, and some do it cheaper. If they really need it done cheaper they've got lots of options, and I've got plenty of people willing to pay - there's no reason for me to cut my supplies or hourly budget just because they want my work at a lower price. So yeah, it's rude, and it's underhanded.

[quaylak.livejournal.com]

Sure, they can tell you how you charge too much, but in my opinion, they shouldn't.

The thing is, it's completely unnecessary to tell an artist they charge too much. Because if they truly DO charge too much, they won't get any business, simple as that. Then they will know to lower their prices. People will pay for what they think the art is worth in the fandom. Some people believe artists should "keep an open mind" when someone tells them they charge too much, but why? What's the point? If someone is willing to commission them for the prices they charge, why should they change what they are doing? That makes no sense at all. In my experience, this is how I've seen it work: New artist offers $1 full-body drawings > low-budget commissioners swarm > artist slowly starts to raise their prices as their art and name starts circulating the web > demand begins to overcome supply, prices rise to $100 for a full-body drawing to compensate > higher budget commissioners begin to swarm > artist now charges "too much" to lower budget commissioners.

In my opinion, it really boils down to not so much an issue with the artist or their prices, but peoples' desire to express how they would not be willing to pay "x" amount. So because they would not pay that much for what is offered, it MUST be too expensive in the eyes of everyone else. That's when the debates start about how art is a luxury item that should be saved for just like video games and things that are seemingly unnecessary, because artists and their income should not suffer just because those who earn less can't afford it.

The comments here are a super example of someone who just wanted to complain about my prices for the sake of complaining (http://www.furaffinity.net/view/12252695/), not being constructive (and I must stress not to comment/reply to anything this person has said, as they have been blocked from my page and cannot reply. Plus, the issue is old and over). It's easy to tell the difference between those who are genuinely concerned for your business and those who are just trying to be rude. They knew nothing about me, my art, or my prices and were not watching me, they probably just saw my art on the front page and decided to drop in and let me know my prices were unreasonable. This is the sort of thing that I find a lot of artists dealing with throughout the fandom, and it is a real shame. Because in the end, what difference does it make to them? I especially hate when artists tell their fellow artists that they charge too much! They should know better and be more supportive, respectful, and constructive with their concerns, you know? My assumption has always been that those artists who attack other artists are just envious of those who can charge a lot for work and actually fill their slots. Hell, I've been there myself! What artist hasn't? What we need to do is support each other and help educate potential commissioners and non-artists about why it's important not to complain to artists about their prices or argue with them about it. Most of the time, people just don't understand that what they are saying can be seen as rude/insulting, and that's okay. It's up to us to teach them, if that makes sense.

So to answer your question, no, I don't think it's okay for people to complain to artists about their prices, but they will do it anyway because they either A.) want to express how it is too expensive for them and thus, must be for everyone else, B.) they are ignorant and just don't know how insulting these complaints can be, in which you can direct them to my simple comic that I created to help educate these poor folks (http://www.furaffinity.net/view/11202502/), or C.) they are just trying to be rude. I've dealt more with A and B than C, thankfully. And I think if we as artists try and educate and calmly explain why a certain behavior is inappropriate, maybe that will help the A and B group understand. C is on their own, lol. Good luck!

[likeshine.livejournal.com]

wow, that person sure does like Ms Delicious' art! :p

[tylociraptor.livejournal.com]

It is a business issue they are SORELY uneducated about. Almost every artist you see doing commissions online in a fandom basis, myself included, is undercharging. If they wanted to complain about it "properly", they'd be saying "I would want to pay way MORE for this, why are you charging so little!?"

Sure, they have a "right" to say whatever they want. They can tell me the sky is purple, and that grass is made of meat if they want, but that doesn't make it true. They can tell me I should burn in hell for wearing pants that show my ankles, and it doesn't make it alright to say. It's rude and wrong to argue prices with an artisan unless they invite bartering openly.

Basically it's like going to a five star, high class restaurant and arguing that it's insane to charge $100+ for a meal, because McDonald's has a value menu.

[anuvia.livejournal.com]

I would honestly say that you shouldn't let one individual get to you or feel like they have the right to essentially "bully" you into a lower price.

The idea that "Artist A" charges less than "Artist B" really is irrelevant in this type of discussion because the commissioner is approaching -you- for work, not another artist. Everyone has their own rates based on what they feel comfortable charging and if someone is not comfortable paying you the rates you personally set, then perhaps they should return to the person who's prices they cited as reasonable instead of seeking out contracts with others. The fact of the matter is, people aren't paying a set price nor is there a dictated base for all artwork; it's a case by case basis depending on artist/content/ect.
Don't budge on your prices or try to negotiate with people about them because not only will they try to do this to others, but you -deserve- the price you set for yourself and you deserve the dignity of not low-balling yourself for the sake of pleasing one individual.

I honestly feel that people don't really need to tell artists "You Charge too much"; it feels rude, entitled and honestly it's not necessary in any way. The fun thing about business is that it pretty much tells you everything you need to know by just by going through it's natural flow. If an artist is perceived by the general populous to be over priced, then their sales will plummet and they will get the message loud and clear. However, if an artist is selling slots/commissions often, then they have no reason to change their prices because the market is there for what they offer at the price they offer it. If you're filling slots TOO quickly and end up with people asking for wait lists/ect, then it's time to raise your prices a little.
It's not really a complicated science and the assumption that artists are unable to read their sales trends to gauge their next course of actions is almost offensive. The person who knows best about your sales trends is YOU, Not some random commissioner/individual trying to talk you out of what you deserve!

[hibbary.livejournal.com]

This is one of those double-ended questions where I'm more interested in the unspoken half: Should an artist get offended when somebody asks? The only response and the only behavior you can control is your own. The more adult, more zen response when this comes up, because it will whether you like it or not, is to expend a minimum amount of negative energy on dealing with it. Arguing with an entitled customer is a waste of time; you could be making art. Becoming upset by their opinion is a waste of feeling you could be spending on something else. Making and posting art online and dealing with it as a business will always attract rude behavior and learning how to let it bounce right off without even a second thought (in spite of how freaking hard that may be) is incredibly valuable. You don't have to be a slave to your own hurt feelings and as soon as someone says your art isn't worth it they don't deserve another smidgen of your time, thought, or energy. I suppose if you felt they were being socially inept and could benefit from being told so you could expend a few moments of your time to set them straight.

[arphalia.livejournal.com]

I agree. Some things you've just gotta let roll.

[teekchan.livejournal.com]

I have had people tell me my $10 animated, full shaded icons were too expensive. People literally complain so you'll give them free or dirt cheap art. Ignore anyone that tells you to lower your prices.

[armaina.livejournal.com]

The specific scenario you're giving sounds like a goading tactic to get the artist to lower their price, a sort of "well what extra tricks can -you- do for -me- to win this 50$ I'm holding in front of you". It's an act of feeding on desperation, and it's repugnant.

Negotiating to a certain price point shouldn't involve 'look at what other artists can do for me'. Yes, there is no problem with saying something is out of their price range, but your particular potential client is not doing this at all, they're playing this terrible act of setting your prices for you, and playing it off like they're 'just doing business'.

[deaglen.livejournal.com]

Oh this struck a chord, I've felt this way many times when working with commissioners. It's my own undoing for letting them take advantage of me, but I'll usually "just throw in" a complex background, or even bump up the commission type to appease them. By that point it's not even worth the chump change they're tossing at me, but what else can you do when you need cash? T OT;

[thunder1.livejournal.com]

Nope. If they're complaining about your prices, tell them to look elsewhere. Many artists are charging less than they should in order to attract more customers. If you need to spell it out to that person, explain how many hours it takes for you to complete a similar piece of artwork, and how much per hour you would make off of the low price they're comparing to you. And then compare that rate to professionals or other proven artists, or even minimum wage.

[silvertales.livejournal.com]

CAN they complain about your prices being "too high?" Sure...
SHOULD they? No.
Do you need to listen? HELL NO.

Using an another artist's price range as an argument is a non-starter. It is irrelevant what some other artist charges for their work. This person isn't asking them, they're asking YOU. Most artists who work on commission undercharge for their time and skill (we're all guilty of it) and if someone has a problem with, it's just that, THEIR problem.

Unfortunately, you seem to have stumbled over one of the kind who just wants to argue and pseudo-shame you into lower your price for them. If they don't like your prices, they're free to commission someone else. It's not rocket science. It's sad that people feel that they can shortchange and take advantage of hard-working artists. What's worse is that they feel you are obligated to listen to their bull and then try to appease them.

No.

[frisket17.livejournal.com]

Artists are not Best Buy or Walmart.
We do not price match since our product is not mass produced. It's one of a kind (normally)

I think many people forget this fact and thus expect us to be flexible with our prices in order to get the consumer buy.

People too often feel entitled to get what they want, even if it means insulting a person to get it :/

[chronidu.livejournal.com]

Is it okay? Well it's okay in that yeah people can do it, but it's horrendously rude and tactless.

To push and harass a person over prices not being what you want when the artist has already stated their 2 cents on the matter is incredibly unproffesional and a commissioner I would personally avoid doing work for.

It is however insulting to go to an artist, look at their work, and whine at them basically saying "YOU ARE NOT WORTH THAT" or "YOU'RE TIME ISN'T WORTH THAT" and I personally make a note of not doing business with people like this because they don't value me as an artist or my artwork. All it shows is a sense of entitlement to an artists work which in itself understandably most artists want nothing to do with.

Whats worse is when I see people like this, especially the ones who come around with "WELL I GOT THIS [art piece] FROM [artist] FOR LESS" they tend to really prey off of artists who horrendously under price themselves, and it's incredibly shitty to use one artist underselling them self as a means to try and take advantage of other artists and manipulate them into getting what they want for less than it's worth.

Now obviously I'm not talking about people going "Wow that's a lot" or something, but rather people like the one you described who push and harass and try to manipulate artists into giving them what they want. It's just completely disrespectful entitled behavior.

[mistresswolf.livejournal.com]

basically saying "YOU ARE NOT WORTH THAT" or "YOU'RE TIME ISN'T WORTH THAT" and I personally make a note of not doing business with people like this because they don't value me as an artist or my artwork.

Oh yes. Or when they say "I worked hard to earn this money!" ... because working hard on a drawing to earn the same money doesn't count?

[amarafox.livejournal.com]

It's not OK. I have flat out told people if they would rather pay less from another artist they are welcome to go buy from that artist.

I have no time for that at all.

[sharkpuppy.livejournal.com]

The only thing I have done even remotely close to this is ask for a bulk discount such as five dollars off if I get two or three pieces of complete art instead of one. Otherwise I think an artist should charge whatever they want.

Just wanted to edit or add that I normally just ask "do you do bulk discounts?" Not just flat out ask five dollars off the final price, it's just been in my experience that when there is a bulk discount that it is around five dollars.

[klippybluefox.livejournal.com]

I agree with absolutely everyone else here- 99% of the time, you are NOT charging too high, and if you really are, the market will let you know by itself. It is unnecessary and rude (and very egocentric) to ever insist a price be dropped because you personally can't afford it. There are always people who will pay more for art than you will.

That said I do have a question- what if the picture is priced strangely compared to their OTHER prices? For example if someone's price sheet lists fullbodies at $30, but they recently opened for icons at $30 and the quality is identical. Is it fair to point out the discrepancy in prices? I saw a situation similar to that once and decided to note them, and they responded upset and angry.

(I would understand if I wanted them to lower the price of the proverbial icons, instead of updating the price sheet... but I tried to make it absolutely clear I meant the latter!)

[thejeweledhorn.livejournal.com]

It wouldn't bother me if someone asked about what they felt was a discrepancy - I'd just explain it. Usually when my prices change from time to time it has to do with how much spare time I have to actually work on art, or lately, the effort I put into my art is increasing. I've had a hard time pricing some smaller things like headshots because they are still very time consuming if they are "fancy shaded," whereas a cel shaded icon is quick to pump out. But hopefully, people would hear the explanation and still go "okay, thanks," and say yay or nay without a big to-do.