Invoices vs. commissioners sending payment.

[whoop-zi.livejournal.com]

Hi A_B! Sorry if this has already been covered. I know there've been some issues going around with people recieving chargebacks(myself included), so I thought this might be a relevant topic to discuss. I heard somewhere that sending invoices can help protect against being issued unwarranted chargebacks due to being able to label it as a service and not a physical item- but I could be wrong. I guess it's kind of sticky because some people have to use chargebacks if they commission someone who runs off with their money. I guess my question here would be- what measures, if any, can one take to prevent a chargeback from being issued months later, when all is said and done? Other than just trying to dispute it, I suppose.

Thanks!

Comments

[clockmagic.livejournal.com]

*I just buy things I'm no artist*
Even with an invoice you or the customer can still issue a chargeback and get your money. I had to do it to an artist who just -dissappeared- and an artist I follow online had it happen to them and they use invoices all the time.

I'm simply making assumptions at this point. Measures you could possibly take to keep a chargeback from happening I guess would be to be detailed in the invoice with what it's for. Fill out the TOS section and the additional descriptions. So if you have to dispute it you've got all your information there to prove it was unwarranted.

[whoop-zi.livejournal.com]

yeah, that's what i thought! that's actually good because i'd hate to see folks not be able to dispute a transaction paid via invoice if their commission goes awry. i guess the only thing i can really do should that happen is dispute it as best i can. i've updated my TOS and added that the commissioner must be at least 18 and that the paypal account must be in their name, to at least ensure that no one(ie confused parents) is going to be messing with their transactions other than the one buying the art, so hopefully that'll help too.

[zackfig.livejournal.com]

It can probably still happen, but because its an invoice, you have more information readily available in order to dispute it. That is always good.

[stormrunner1981.livejournal.com]

You could also send a cd (add cost to your commission cost) and make sure all the stuff is set though paypal.

Clockmagic I agree with as well.

[roxyfur.livejournal.com]

I've heard rumors that Paypal is more likely to side with the artist on fraudulent chargebacks (ie: completed art, buyers remorse, etc) if you note that the product being sold is a digital image. I don't know if this is completely true, but I have that notation in the description of all of the types of pieces I sell just in case I ever face that situation.

I don't think invoices offer any more or any less protection, if the above is just in fact a rumor, but they're a deal more convenient for the artist and client, and also protect the artist from the client putting dumb things in the description that could reveal if you're doing adult work.

[mistresswolf.livejournal.com]

*nod* I am not sure of this either, but just in case, in one of the sections of my invoice I have "Digital goods, no shopping required" included so that it is visible to the customer.

Thankfully I have never had anyone do a chargeback on me.

[mortymaxwell.livejournal.com]

I have mixed feelings about artists sending CDs through the mail. I understand it's important for artists to be protected, but as a customer, having to pay extra for a physical copy+shipping costs would make me take my business elsewhere.

I really wish Paypal was better about protecting people when it comes to digital goods.

[klaora.livejournal.com]

Out of sheer curiosity, would marking a digital commission as a "service," make a difference? While traditional media does create a "good" that you are selling, for digital art I'm only being paid to render the image.

[teekchan.livejournal.com]

Considing that you are providing a service, 'creating the artwork' and not selling the artwork. Service should apply. I am not selling a good, I am selling a service. Commissioners receive no transfer of rights or physical copy, technically they are laying me to make the image.

But, I spoke to paypal reps and they said either would work. They didnt really understand the concept of someone paying for an image.

[amocin.livejournal.com]

I have always asked people to mark their stuff as "services" when sending me money. If they fail to do this, I refund the money and ask them to do it again.

I personally hate getting invoices, and it has turned me away from getting commissions from artists who send them instead of allowing me to pay for it myself, but I have had some personal bad experiences with artists who send invoices.

I wouldnt suggest forcing a customer to get a physical copy. Some dont want it, and could turn people away because thats extra money they dont want to spend.

[mortymaxwell.livejournal.com]

Not asking about your personal bad experiences... just more in general, what is it about invoices that could discourage a customer from buying from an artist who sends them out?

[amocin.livejournal.com]

I would have to state the personal for you to understand.

I share the PP with my husband, and though he wouldnt disapprove of me buying commissions, that doesnt mean I want him knowing about every purchase I make, because he gets the email notifications too. With an invoice, I dont know when its coming, and I would rather not hound my inbox for the notification.

Second, I have had an experience where I was quoted a price, and then the invoice came to me as more then the agreed price. I was told it was sales tax/paypal fee.. which didnt sit well with me.. If I am told a price, I expect that price, no more. If tax is to be included, I wish it to be upfront when the price is being discussed. Customers should never have to pay the paypal fee.... The person receiving the money should, thats how its set up. Having an invoice come to you with more then that makes a person feel pressured. Sure it may only be two dollars, but its 2 dollars that werent discussed before the invoice was sent.

[whoop-zi.livejournal.com]

yikes, that's pretty skeevy. :/ artists springing a paypal fee on their commissioners is always a reg flag to me.

[kaputotter.livejournal.com]

Just as an aside, it is actually against PayPal ToS for them to charge you PayPal fees openly. Not sure if you're aware of this but I have heard of people getting in trouble for it before. I doubt you'll be contacting this artist again but it's good to keep under your hat if this happens with someone else. It's much more kosher for an artist to factor the PayPal fees into your commission price, which is what I do. Semantics to some, but a better practice if you care about being professional.

[whoop-zi.livejournal.com]

i'm personally not too fond of sending invoices(or receiving them), which is another reason why i'm asking about this, because if it doesn't make that much of a difference i'd rather have my commissioners send payment instead!

[kayla-la.livejournal.com]

Personally, I like doing invoices for two big reasons. Record keeping (far easier with invoices on my end, at least for me!), and because it makes sure the commissioner can't put incriminating info in the note field. I don't even take adult commissions hardly ever, but with how rampant it is on FA I would be nervous about them even just putting 'FA commission' on there or something. I like being able to control what info I receive.

That said, it's just another personal preference thing, really.

[whoop-zi.livejournal.com]

ohh yeah, that is a good point- i only take clean commissions generally as well, so i never really thought of that!

i did do invoices at one point because record keeping is much easier- i think i must have stopped because it was a hassle having a few extra steps, but in this case the extra organization is probably worth it- especially because most of the time i get payments with no information attached, so then there's the hassle of running around trying to figure out who sent what. i've also started collecting emails from my commissioners anyway as an extra form of contact when FA goes down, so on second thought, maybe invoices are the better way to go in my case. :x

[kayla-la.livejournal.com]

Yeah. I just find it so much more tidy, invoices are nice and numbered and everything. You will get some customers who are weird about it but I haven't run into too much trouble, fortunately!

[teekchan.livejournal.com]

Artists tend to put the info in themselves. I refused to pay an invoice for 'Furry digital commission, adult content'.

[teekchan.livejournal.com]

The few times I was chargebacked was via invoices.

I personally avoid buying people who pay via invoice. One, they ALWAYS request my address. This is NOT needed for a digital commission and should never get in the hands of an artist doing a digital transaction.

Two, most times, they put things like 'FA commission' or other trigger words in the invoice. I either leave them blank, or insert a code due to FAs adult art policy.

[whoop-zi.livejournal.com]

yeah, that's a little invasive :x that doesn't happen as long as the artist checks "no shipping required" but a lot of artists miss that, i think.

[celestinaketzia.livejournal.com]

I have the "no shipping" / "Do not collect addresses" ticked on mine and it still emails me addresses. Weird.

[whoop-zi.livejournal.com]

that's odd- i assume you check that it's a service as well? it might be a paypal glitch or something, hm.

[celestinaketzia.livejournal.com]

The option to tick good or service doesn't exist on Paypal anymore. You either pick "Good/service - no shipping required/enter address" or "Friends and family". There is no option for it on invoices.

Here's what it looks like on my end while filling one out. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/76717253/Create_a_new_invoice_-_PayPal_-_2014-11-12_18.46.19.png) When I receive a paid invoice it shows as paid, but my client's address is not listed on the invoice itself. It is, however, listed in Paypal's "Invoice paid" email.

[whoop-zi.livejournal.com]

ohh, ok! it's been a while since i've used invoices so i'm out of the loop. thanks for showing me that!

[kattotang.livejournal.com]

I was actually wondering about this, because it doesn't seem to matter what options I try, when I invoice someone it collects their address and Paypal tells me I can mark the "item" as "shipped" and enter tracking info on that sale... Is it just not possible to do invoices that don't automatically collect shipping information anymore then?

[nakoothetauren.livejournal.com]

I really want to know this since it has been bothering me for quite some time.

[celestinaketzia.livejournal.com]

From the time I've been using them, there seems to be no way to keep them from gathering address information in your email.

[tealmoonxiv.livejournal.com]

I've paid and sold multiple ways and every time both of our addresses are visible. :/

[teekchan.livejournal.com]

There's a 'no shipping needed' drop down when sending money (Its where you select your amount, currency and address), and you have to go in your account to tick off showing your address. I cant remember where exactly as I did it ages ago.

[tealmoonxiv.livejournal.com]

Did that too and both were still visible. :/

[teekchan.livejournal.com]

Odd considering I only get addresses when buyers dont follow my 'no shipping' instructions.

[celestinaketzia.livejournal.com]

Perhaps this is one of those country-by-country things? I can't avoid gathering customers' addresses, and I'm in the US.

[teekchan.livejournal.com]

Maybe state by state? I was informed of the tips for hiding addresses via a US customer/friend.

[celestinaketzia.livejournal.com]

No idea. I have all of the proper things checked to ensure addresses are hidden, and that I don't need to gather client addresses. I wish Paypal would just have a simple tick box that says "do you need to gather addresses?" and that's the end of that.

[teekchan.livejournal.com]

Most people listen and tick 'no address required', that's likely the closest we'll get. They really should have a digital transaction option.

[tock-fast.livejournal.com]

Kinda relevant... Is there a difference between sending an invoice and requesting money in Paypal? I've always wondered this. They seem to be the same, except for in the invoice section, you can fill more sections in.

[kaputotter.livejournal.com]

This is actually a good question which I've wondered about for a while. When you select "request money" you're given only an email field and the amount requested. The text reads "You can request money from anyone with an email address, even if they don't have a PayPal account."

So I guess this is just a general fallback function for someone you know who may not already have a confirmed PayPal address set up yet, like a friend who owes you cash for a favor or something.

[gokai-chibi.livejournal.com]

Request money is just a simplified invoice.

[tock-fast.livejournal.com]

Ah, thank you! ;)

[mortymaxwell.livejournal.com]

Has anyone found a way yet for invoices not to gather client addresses, or is Paypal still doing this? I tried calling customer service and Paypal was, "this is working as intended."

[celestinaketzia.livejournal.com]

The workaround I had been using no longer works, so no.