Advice

[teekchan.livejournal.com]

Hey AB. I need some advice on how to handle refunds for artists style. It generally only happens with Auctions. I assume people find them in faves/on the front page, and snap them up without seeing how I actually draw.

I draw anime, or flat faces. Meaning I don't draw snouts or muzzles. It's very clear as not a single image in my gallery has them.

I have had people win or AB auctions and back out after the wips because they dont want snout-less art. I have even had situations where I explain this to users I dont recognize and they say its fine, but when they see the art, they either regret it, or (in one case) tell me they thought I was lying.

After it happened a few times I slapped 'I dont draw snouts' or "please view my gallery before buying' everywhere.

I basically want something to cover my booty so I dont loose out on income from drawing the sketches. People have always demanded full refunds in this case. I'd like something that doesnt cause people to automatically hate me if I refuse to refund the sketch work, but I'd much rather have some sort of warning that will really shock people in to actually looking at my gallery, as I'd rather avoid refunding at all.

The fact that people don't look at the 'look in gallery' and assume I'm outright lying about drawing anime/flat faces makes me assume I'll need something 'special'. FA users suggested I state 'No refunds if you dont like the snoutless art style' but I know outright that's not possible.

Any suggestions?

EDIT -
I'd like to state I already have a refund clause in my TOS.
As stated above I am looking for wording on how to AVOID having to give a refund in the first place. Users have lied about being okay about style and viewing my gallery. I'm looking for wording that I can place as a warning so users actually looked and are okay with the style. I dont need refund advice.

EDIT 2 -
Sorry for another edit. I'll be going with what aerotheacrobat suggested as their advice actually was exactly what I was looking for.
I never wanted refund advice, as many of you seemed to think, sorry for any miswording I used to confuse you on that topic.

Comments

[mazzy techna (from livejournal.com)]

thats really shitty to be honist , you shouldnt have to give a full refund because they didnt look at what they would be buying.

The only thing I could think of is getting them to agree before the commission that they have looked threw your gallary and have agreed to your style,
though if someone did this to me I would tell them I don't do full re-funds after I have done the sketch just because they didnt bother looking at the work

I am so sorry this happens to you

[aerotheacrobat.livejournal.com]

I suggest making a rule on bidding for the client to post at least once "I have viewed your gallery and like your style," or something to that effect when they bid. Poke at anyone not saying such and cancel the bid if they don't update.

[teekchan.livejournal.com]

I'd rather not have people have to type something out every time they bid, as it's clutter and would stop some people from bidding, fearing someone would outbid them.

I always include a 'bid here' post. Would 'By bidding you agree you have looked through my gallery and are comfortable with my art style' work?

I dont want it to be too long. it's already stated in my rules 9and linked to) that my TOS applies.

[aerotheacrobat.livejournal.com]

That's possible, true. Though, typing it just once was what I was suggesting. Having the bid here with the agreement is much less cumbersome and a better idea!

Sadly, many people don't read the TOS. I've had some rather annoying issues with people that don't read mine (like what I will and won't draw, closed means closed, that sort of thing).

[n.livejournal.com]

This is just stemming from observing your own personal characters here and there via commissions from people I watch, but I think you might have some crossed signals because you, yourself as the artist, have characters with muzzles?

So while you have your set style, people might think because you're the owner of one of your notable characters, that you also dabble in muzzles /w your art?

I even recently saw a character design you collaborated /w another artist, and it was muzzled o:

I really have nothing to give in terms of advice, but I think this might be where your conundrum starts from an outsider's point of view.

[teekchan.livejournal.com]

My characters are all standard 'flat faced'. Other artists choose to draw them with muzzles. I have (unposted yet though) a ref sheet with a muzzled bust to show shape for one character, but draw them flat faced on all 4 other bodies.

The collab with Topolis was only posted due to being a collab, and it's clearly stated she did the lines. if anyone were to actually look at my gallery they'd see it was muzzle-less. None the less I shall remove the collab to avoid confusion.

[ankewehner.livejournal.com]

Is putting at least thumbnails of some portraits with your style in the email/other communication with customer an option?

I think I've occasionally seen artist requiring that the customer agrees to some condition in their own words, to prove they have read and understood the terms, or the artist won't proceed. So, maybe include something like, "Since I have had problems with people disliking my style in the past, I need you to confirm in your own words that you want to proceed with an ANIME-STYLE/SNOUT-LESS commission, and accept that once I start sketches, only a partial refund is possible."

And if they don't do it, "Sorry, I need you to agree to the terms" and send them the same message again.

Not sure if that'd work since I'm not familiar with the community, but putting it in the open as an idea, anyway.

[slinkslowdown.livejournal.com]

I like this idea best of the ones offered so far.

[teekchan.livejournal.com]

But I have had people agree it'd fine. Told them to look at gallery, told them I only do flat faces, they agree. The user I spoke of who called me a liar. I made sure they were aware, and yet, after the wip, they wanted a refund.

And looks like I stupidly didn't have caps, or at least not on this computer. Either way, the user was warned and told to look, they did, agreed and still demanded a refund claiming they didnt believe me.

[spytdragonfyre.livejournal.com]

Well I think that would just mean they were out of luck. You warned them ahead of time and they ignored you. Keep the money for what you did and refund them the rest.

[ankewehner.livejournal.com]

Then don't give them a full refund; keep something to pay for the time you spent workin on it.

[milingchi.livejournal.com]

I like what the above people said.

Make them agree somehow that they've looked through your gallery and that they are fine without a snout or cancel/refund in whole if they refuse. If you do get to a sketch, refund partially (75%-65% I would think, but I'm not an artist so you do as you see fit) and tell them if they argue that they agree to no snout/your art style and that you did work so you deserve some compensation.


You're going to come across some people who don't like that no matter what. I don't think it really matter as those people would likely not be people you want to work with/people who are hassles.

Again, I'm not an artist so I don't really know, but this is how I'd go about it.

[slinkslowdown.livejournal.com]

You're going to come across some people who don't like that no matter what. I don't think it really matter as those people would likely not be people you want to work with/people who are hassles.

This.

[celestinaketzia.livejournal.com]

A very quick way to remedy this, and in general, is to add a "if a client cancels" clause. Prior to you accepting payment make sure you link them your ToS.

Mine pretty much says that for whatever reason if they cancel, they will only receive the amount minus any work done. So if you catch me before I've started, then yes, full refund. Otherwise, no, I will be compensated for my time.

[wolf-goat.livejournal.com]

This would be my recommendation too, as it also covers your ass for any other weird things that could come up!

[teekchan.livejournal.com]

I already have it stated in my TOS, I will clarify it though. But as I said, I'd like to avoid refunding at all. Any suggestions for how I could phrase it without outright being an asshat?

[spytdragonfyre.livejournal.com]

Put in your ToS, at least for these auctions, that you will not give refunds or let people back out just because they don't like your style after having been warned about it. The work they paid for will be completed and maybe they'll learn to read what the auction said in the first place.

[lem0ntrees.livejournal.com]

Here is how I have it worded in mine:
"Refunds will be issued based on the amount of work already completed. Commissions that have not been started will be fully refunded. Any work done beyond that will have a fee deducted from the refund total. Sorry, no free sketches!"

[bladespark.livejournal.com]

No matter what you say, and no matter what you put in your TOS, there are always going to be people who don't notice, are absent-minded, are just dense, or whatever.

I do like the "By bidding you agree you have looked through my gallery and are comfortable with my art style" idea, but be aware that it will still not guarantee everybody actually reads it.

Just stick to your guns and don't refund people like that. They had a chance to figure out what they were getting, they didn't take it, it's 100% their fault, and their complaints are not going to hurt your business any, because anyone with even an ounce of sense will know that they're being ridiculous.

[westly-roanoke.livejournal.com]

Could you have them submit through your TOS? Adding a checkmark that they adknowlage that the sketch is, say 50% of the total price, and when the sketch is complete, this part of the payment is no longer refundable. That way, if they demand a refund, you can refer them to your TOS that at the time the sketch is completed, 50% of the payment is now complete, and they can demand only the other 50% back.

It's a thought, or at least one to build on.

[mazzy techna (from livejournal.com)]

From the comments I have seen from you I can see you have everything in place , you need to learn to not be a push over and stand your ground with them , No magic words will help

[teekchan.livejournal.com]

Being a 'pushover' as you call it is not an issue. It's the fact that they can do a paypal chargeback whenever they want, and because Paypal doesnt cover stuff like this, they will win nearly every time.

I have refused full refunds and been charge-backed.

As I have stated over and over, refunding is not an issue, its avoiding refunding in the first place. The initial post may have been unclear but the edit should have fixed any miswording I used.

[houndofloki.livejournal.com]

I get what you're asking here. The disconnect is probably that people are thinking of the snout as a character attribute rather then a "style" thing, assuming you'll draw their character on model, and backing out when they realize you won't.

I think the best way of avoiding this is just to be explicit in your commission info ("I do not draw snouts and will alter a character with one to be human-faced").

[teekchan.livejournal.com]

I have it stated (in my comms tab, and general rules), but I wanted some phrasing and how I should put it on any auctions I host, as that is where the issues arrive. (Finding them on the front page, and speed bidding without seeing the gallery). Thanks though!

[lunabird.livejournal.com]

Late to the party, but one thing you could do with your auctions is say the auction winner will be asked three questions about a random pieces in your gallery (EG in so and so picture is the character wearing a red shirt or a purple one?) after the auction ends. If the winner does not/ can not answer the questions, then their winning bid is disqualified and the process starts again at the new "winning bid". Repeat until you actually get someone who actually has looked at your gallery and is OK with the style.