Advice for commissioner?

[traci anne]

I really don't want to name drop or anything just yet.
But really looking for advice.

So this artist normally posts auctions like
http://i58.tinypic.com/155q8va_th.png "YCH (NOT AUCTION)"
But with a set price, the price I agreed to was 50$ when I claimed the piece as first post.
I was first post, so I set over my info. Two others posted after of course after just missing it...
Then I received this response from the artist...
http://oi60.tinypic.com/29e5cwh.jpg

To me this seems dishonorable.. I have never ran into this before.
Normally first one to post wins for the set price..
I didn't expect for the artist to come back with that type of note, which is the only
reason I didn't take a screen shot of the original post.. And since it was on FA I attempted to go back in my browser where the artist then deleted the original posting..

Is this something that would warrant an artist beware?
I honestly do want the piece, however I can't help but feel betrayed/conned and looked at like a dollar sign.. He ended up getting me up to 65$... but it's still as far as I understand, if you offer something for that price.. it should be sold for that... Not I received an offer for someone offering me more can you top this?... I just don't find it fair and looking for a bit of opinions on something like this?


*****Update
So all in all it just seems like it is bad/dishonest for someone to do something like this.
But it also leaves a lot of open 'What If' questions. What if there was was no note for a better offer? Why not just respond that you apologize and would like to list it as an auction instead? (That way people can clearly see other bidders, etc.)

It overall does seem shady - and I will not be personally commissioning an artist that does this, or participates in such dishonest practice. I also find it unfair to not warn others of such a practice happening, but I suppose they would have to do such more than once for it to even possibly be considered an appropriate AB.

Otherwise, situations like this leaves honest commissioners like myself in the hands of someone who could potentially be lying, who should have just listed the said picture as an actual auction in the first place for followed the simple practice like others do.

I appreciate all the honest input you all have given me!

Comments

[celestinaketzia.livejournal.com]

On one hand money hasn't changed hands yet, and you do have the chance to walk away from this artist.

On the other hand, this is really poor behavior on behalf of the artist. If you're going to turn it into an auction later because someone is willing to pay more then your clients need to know from the beginning.

[traci anne (from livejournal.com)]

Right, I haven't paid yet. It's just the fact of the matter really.. Is I am not sure how many other people this artist has done it to, so really was just unsure.

[kayla-la.livejournal.com]

I would have walked away the moment they asked for more money, and I was surprised that you didn't.

If they wanted it to be an auction they really should have done that from the start. Trying to treat it like one privately after the fact is really shady.

I'm not sure about being bewareable, though, since you did have the chance to walk away and chose not to take it.

[traci anne (from livejournal.com)]

I did want the pose, is of course the whole reason I went for it.
I just did not expect a private comeback of 'well someone offered me more." Just wasn't sure. Thanks for the help though!

[adzuki.livejournal.com]

This sounds real yucky and since you have the chance to I would back out of it.

I don't think this is really worth a beware, but I do think that they sound rather unprofessional to pressure clients to pay more than what is agreed.

I think the only exception might be in a case where printing an item or shipping an item might cost more than originally thought but still...

[wuvvumsoc.livejournal.com]

I feel like not getting a deal doesn't really warrant a beware (since, fundamentally, artists should be able to turn down work for whatever reason) but it is poor conduct. Then again if we made a beware for every instance of an artist acting unprofessionally this community would be full of entries. o:

[traci anne (from livejournal.com)]

That is very true!
It was more of, why offer something as a flat sale YCH, then just.. jack it up more because someone offered more.
But you're very right, thanks for the advice!

[hipakipa.livejournal.com]

maybe not a beware, but it is kind of iffy, kinda wrong to say they wanted more afterward. but as it's already been said, they weren't too pushy about it and you had the chance to turn it down, so it's not incredibly deplorable

[kalika-tybera.livejournal.com]

I find that behaviour incredibly unprofessional and skeevy, and personally if an artist asked me for more money after agreeing to a flat price, I would walk away. If they wanted it to be an auction they should have listed it as such when putting it up for sale.

[mistresswolf.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't scale it up to a full beware... but I do think it is unprofessional. They should have set it up as an auction in the first place if they were willing to do that.

For my YCH pieces, I always do a flat rate, first come first served method. However, if someone else is also interested, I generally ask the first person if they are cool with me reusing the pose. If they say yes, then I let the next person get it too. It rarely happens though.

[traci anne (from livejournal.com)]

Thanks! Is pretty much what I expected though, just normal flat sale YCH. Person agrees to what they wanted, then to come back with something like what this particular artist did is what set me off a bit. I hadn't had something like that happen before, at most unprofessional. I didn't think it a full beware, just advice is all! Thank you again!

[teekchan.livejournal.com]

I personally see nothing wrong with getting a higher offer and making you aware. Wouldn't you be upset if they sold it to the other person without telling you?

Yes, it wasnt an auction, but many artists do this. If this upsets you, move on. Don't work with the artist. I highly doubt they had any idea the other buyer would offer more, and I really don't think it's right to put blame on the artist.

[yuki-fox-demon.livejournal.com]

Wait, a lot of artists do this? As someone who is hoping to start saving money for commissions, that's seriously discouraging :/ I'd be *very* upset and disheartened if I saved money for something that is being sold at a flat rate, went to buy it, then they turned around and said "oh, well, someone else wants to pay more, so unless you offer more, you can't have it."

[armaina.livejournal.com]

Honestly, even with the offer of more money, I don't think I could sell something I already promised to someone else, to another person. The way I see it, someone basically paid an additional 10$, to take it away from you. It's like getting to the register with your purchase and someone behind you in line yanking it away and offering the cashier more money for it.

While I guess it's nice that they noted you there was another offer, it shouldn't have been taken in the first place.

That being said, I don't really think this needs a full post, unless this is a type of repeat behavior, which it's hard to say right now. But I'd bow out of this, I find the situation little disrespectful and no one should have to put up with that.

[traci anne (from livejournal.com)]

Thank you, I really do appreciate your opinion!

[ryunwoofie.livejournal.com]

I think it's in REALLY poor taste to have asked you that.. They should have worked something out with the other person interested with just a regular commission instead and honored what you wanted. I probably wouldn't do business with said artist in the future just because they put you in a REALLY awkward and somewhat shady position. D: Hell they could be making it up to get more money tbh. (But that's just speculation)

[traci anne (from livejournal.com)]

Thanks, I really do appreciate you taking the time to respond. As I was just unsure.

[chronidu.livejournal.com]

Just another artist voicing that yea, its honestly pretty tactless, but since they are doing this before any money has changed hands, not beware worthy, just pretty tasteless.

[hidden-kyuubi.livejournal.com]

Seems like it isn't considered beware worthy here, but in another hobby I am a part of they have a section on the website for it called Flaky feedback, for when either a seller or buyer backs out after a price/sale has already been agreed upon.
Sorry someone broke your trust in that way, and I agree with the others that even if you want the pose to say no to the artist, you'll probably find similar poses elsewhere, unless it's something super unique.

[hidden-kyuubi.livejournal.com]

Somehow responded to mine when trying to respond to thaily, whoops.

[thaily.livejournal.com]

Can I ask, did you see the other bid? Or who bid on it? The fact they removed the piece so you can't check back sounds a little skeevy, especially if they were entertaining bids, as they seem to be doing.

Makes me wonder if that higher bid is a real thing or if they're just trying to milk you for a few extra dollars.

[ramthedragon.livejournal.com]

This is actually a really good point. It could have been falsely inflated on purpose.

[intj-reflection.livejournal.com]

I have a question for you, OP: Did the artist acknowledge you as first poster/winner prior to saying that there had been a higher offer? While it won't change the overall opinion, it might adjust some of my commentary.

(From my reading you posted to claim and then immediately Private Messaged, but I want to be sure I'm understanding properly.)

[traci anne (from livejournal.com)]

I had posted the claim, refreshed to ensure there were no posts before me (Those things do go fast.)
I waited about 10 minutes while gathering info and checked back with listing, there were still no responses to any of the three posters just yet. But with timestamp my note was there first that I'd like to claim it.
So, I went forward with my note presuming it's what they were waiting for. Checked back again and there was only a response to the last bidder (a person who won three pieces prior) that they would have paid more. The artist commented along the lines should have put up as auction instead or will post as auction next time, then deleted the posting.
So I'd be safe to assume it was in that time the person went to offer more via notes. I can't say what happened in the notes beyond the screen shots I have taken on my end.

[bladespark.livejournal.com]

I don't understand why the artist would do this. It's not like drawings are a limited commodity and you can only draw so many. They should have told the second person "Hey, I'll draw you a kind of similar pose if you like" and then they'd have two happy customers.

[clockmagic.livejournal.com]

This! Having been in similar situations before I've seen an artist when they were willing offer to do two so both parties were happy (with one or the other being slightly different). No harm and everyone wins.

[sableantelope.livejournal.com]

Apologies if this post is not super clear, healthy is crappy.

Technically a seller is allowed to do this, even if they say that it is not an auction.
The listed price is one half of the buying deal- the price listed is called in the law an "an invitation to treat"(aka "invitation to offer"). It only becomes a contract once the price is agreed upon by buyer and seller and money changes hands. The buyer can ignore your offer(in this case your $50 offer) and accept another offer ($65) instead.
In fact they were actually being kinda nice(in a round-about sorta business way) offering you a second chance on the product if you match the other offer. :/

What would make all the difference here would be if they replied to your offer of $50 with something like "Sold, please send the funds to my paypal!"
Then it could be argued that there was not just invitation to treat, but also offer and acceptance; and you can't just back out of that as a seller so easily.

But yeah, remember the offer by a seller is only the invitation to treat, not a contract just waiting for the buyer to complete it. Still has to a come to the meeting of the minds after the invitation to treat(offer) is received.

[bladespark.livejournal.com]

Well said.

Although what you *can* do legally and what will make your customers happy are not always the same thing. I don't think it was wrong, exactly, but I do think it wasn't necessarily the best response.

[tyrano-tiggs.livejournal.com]

Whilst it's perfectly within an artists rights to refuse a commission no matter the reason, it still doesn't make it any less tacky and it'd certainly put me off working with the artist.

If the artist isn't willing to let you pay the agreed price and tell the other buyer they can have a similar pose (with YCH auctions, I'm assuming it's not the done thing to offer the same pose twice?) then I'd cut your losses and walk away. Don't feel pressured to hand over more money than you've already agreed.

I would agree with everyone else that it's not Beware Worthy at this time as whilst poor sportsmanship, the artist hasn't done anything legally wrong.

Edit: hit submit too soon.

[ansitru.livejournal.com]

Personally, I've been in the situation of offering something for a flat-rate, only to find out people would pay more than the flat-rate that was already agreed upon with another buyer.

Personally, I have always stuck to the flat-rate that was agreed upon, simply because if I retroactively wanted it to be an auction, I should have submitted it as such. Not to mention it's a somewhat shitty move to pull on a buyer.

If you still can, I would probably recommend not commission that artist, but to save the money and buy something else you like from an artist who won't change the price at the last minute, tbh.

[staple-gunner.livejournal.com]

i kinda feel this wouldve only been okay if you hadnt replied for like, idk, 24 hours and the slot went to the other person.. but as someone else said, i feel if the bids arent public, it could just be a fake anonymous bidder meanwhile theyre trying to get you to pay more, based on what one of the people said that couldve given them the idea they can get more.

deleting the original submission was fishy, have they not reposted it as an auction? imo i think you should find someone that wont do this.. despite what few have said, its not common practice to do that with flat sales only.

[ljmydayaway.livejournal.com]

Ditto to this. I wouldn't even bother trying to buy from this artist anymore.

MOD NOTE

[oceandezignz.livejournal.com]

Hello, moderator here unfortunately I let my LJ sub expire and they blocked off my mod icon. Grrrrrrrreat.

But anyhow I'd like to clarify a few things PUBLICLY first:

A) We do not allow for deleted comments.

B) We do not delete posts without good reason

C) This is an ADVICE POST, the artist was not mentioned at all so those who are giving advice are yes, doing it based off what is indeed given to us so that can go anywhere. A formal BEWARE on the other hand has to go through our Moderation Team and if anything is off or fishy about it? It doesn't get put through.

If you feel this beware is about YOU... just walk away. You have not been outed at all and you could attempt to see what the situation looked like to not only your client(s), but to other experienced art-business individuals.

Please do NOT out yourself again; any comments admitting your identity as said artist will be screened from public view.

Thanks.

[jane vakarian (from livejournal.com)]

I mean, what they did is technically legal.
It's just super bad business for them.

1. You dont know/dont have proof, that someone offered higher.

2.They said it wasn't an auction, why treat it as one?

Rather than them trying to get the larger amount of money off of you, why didn't they attempt to make both parties happy with the giving the other a similar pose, or same pose (if it was okay for both of you).
Possible returning clientele, good business practice, also doubling profit. Its seems as if it is a win all around if they proceeded like that.

I don't see why they would do this in the first place unless they undervalued the first piece, and wanted more off you to cover for them undervaluing.

[mortymaxwell.livejournal.com]

"It overall does seem shady - and I will not be personally commissioning an artist that does this, or participates in such dishonest practice."

I can't help but wonder after seeing your edit if you have you decided not to go ahead with commissioning the artist?

[suburbanfox.livejournal.com]

This is known (perhaps just in the UK) as "Gazumping". The seller accepts one offer, then someone makes a higher offer and they accept that, and retract their acceptance of the lower offer. It's considered extremely bad business practice...

I'd have walked away, and probably replied with something like: "I'm sorry to hear that. I will not be increasing my offer beyond that that to which we have already agreed. Best of luck with the other commissioner."

Equally, I'm not sure if this warrants a full beware, however I would have to think twice about doing business with any artist who engages in business practices like this.