Weird illustration job?

[wolf-nymph.livejournal.com]

Nothing to beware of yet, but I wanted to make sure. I could use you guys' advice.


So I was contacted by this person on DeviantART (her profile said she was 14) saying that her father was interested in hiring me for an illustration job. I got his email and a link to his DA account, and was told to email him saying what my prices are.

Since I had no idea what the job entailed and what the purpose was, I decided to inquire to see what was up. He tells me the job is for a small toy company he is presenting ideas to. He wants three illustrations, but I'm still not sure what he really wants and what the purpose of my illustrations will be. He attached a picture he did, a mangled version of my Elemental Fire Fox piece and says he wants this but as a snake, a lion and a wolf. It's the head and front legs of the fox and pieces of fire connected with large awkward black blocks. My watermark is not found anywhere on the picture.

I would show you guys what it look like, but I get red-x syndrome every time I try to put it in photobucket. =/

He tells me that if the company chooses my art (which he apparently using to present his ideas) that there will be a job. That the toys will be sold in South American and possibly the US.

This seems iffy because:
a) The person's 14 year old daughter contacted me for this job, not himself. That's a little bizarre, why wouldn't he send me a note or an email himself?

b) He's already assuming he can use existing artwork of mine to present to this company, which I never said he could. He mangled a piece I did without my permission, which already rubs me the wrong way....

c) Vague city! What will these illustrations be used for? Who is paying me (him or the toy company)? What are the toys going to be like? What is the name of the toy company?

I'm afraid that if this IS something I shouldn't pass up, telling him he shouldn't have mangled my art will ruin the oppertunity for me. I simply don't know how to respond to this guy, or what to make of this. Also, how do I price each illustration if it's for a package design?

Not too sure on all this, so any feedback is a good thing! ^^;


[edit] I got an email response from him, but since this entry is getting s little long I'll lj-cut it.

I got an email back from the guy so lets see what you guys think now:

"I appreciate your enthusiasm. I will try to answer as best I can.

- the black blocks are for text
- this will go on the package
- I will pay you
- you will not have contact with the toy company, you are a sub-contractor. I will need you to fill out a tax id form if this goes forward.
- I'm sorry I don't understand the last question

As the designer/art director I am originating the concept. I need the help of an illustrator to do the detail work and rendering. If I where you, the question I would ask is: what is my time worth?

As an artist, I understand your point of view, I've been there before. Just ask yourself how long will this take me and how much money do I want? Keep in mind, you will need to re-render, this is not a cut and paste job---I need a painter/illustrator.

If you have any more questions feel free to call or write.

-Orlando
(xxx) xxx-xxxx mobile"



Tax id form? I've done subcontract work before and not had to do that. Is my experience normal, or is what he's asking normal? Just not keen on giving this guy that sort of information after how fishy this job arose.

I wrote back:


"Hey again Orlando!

I understand how to price my art, I have been doing this for a few years now, so it's ok. I just needed to know what the job was for, thank you. =) That last part wasn't a question actually, I need you to include the original form of my artwork which you used to create your concept in your presentation to the toy company.

I'm not interested in contacting the toy company, but I still (out of curiosity) would like to know what the toy company is, to see if I've heard of them or not. Knowing who is using my art is always a bonus when presenting my portfolio to other potential clients. Your company name will help in putting my portfolio together as well.

Knowing this is not a cut and paste job is a plus for me, as I'm not a graphic designer I'm an illustrator! I'm looking forward to the opportunity to render something totally brand new for you, should the toy company choose the concept with my art.

If it gets accepted, we can discuss a contract. I'm happy you picked me as one of the potential artists, I'm crossing my fingers!

~Katie Hofgard"

[edit 2]



From him:
"I still need an estimate so I know if I can afford you or not. Keep in mind there will be three animals of similar complexity as the fox. Also, let's make sure we include the rest of the body of the animal. Not just the head. I don't mean to be pushy but, since I cannot afford to go to a large agency I'm reaching out to various artists. I really need an answer."


Not having my questions answered, I decided to give him a very basic estimate, no guarantees to see if that will get me some answers. I'm not too pleased with the way he's treating me so far, even though he's no being directly insulting.


"I understand exactly what you are asking of me, I still need to know
what your company name is and the name of toy company. My apologies,
this is an unusual way to approach an artist. I am also uncomfortable
that you altered my artwork, my watermark and copyright are not
visible in the alteration, and that you are using my artwork for a
commercial presentation without my permission. So please, understand
my apprehension.

If you were to hire me, each illustration will require a deposit of at
least ____. During the process of making the illustration, I will log
my hours and how many changes are made to each illustration (say, if
you're not satisfied with the first version or want major changes),
and likely there will be additional fees beyond a certain point.
Royalties are also an issue, but most of this stuff would be worked
out in the contract, so none of it is solid. Which is why I would
want to get to a contract before agreeing to anything for sure."

I hope I'm not letting slip a great oppertunity by being picky, almost everything about this says no to me. =( More updates when I get 'em.

Comments

[moodyferret.livejournal.com]

I would stay away from him - that seems fishy.

Or...make sure you get paid up front.

[feralityillust.livejournal.com]

Honestly, if he already used your artwork without permission, he is already being unprofessional and I wouldn't have much hope for him being professional about this toy deal either. I would definitely ask for more information before you make a decision. Sorry that's not much help. = /

[wolf-nymph.livejournal.com]

I edited my post just now with our current correspondance. =3 Gives me more info to work with!

[lozpie.livejournal.com]

Sounds suspicious...

I'd try to at least talk on the phone with him, get his business/home address, the name of the toy company... just politely say that you might be interested but you need a lot more details before you're willing to commit to anything, and ask what his budget is/payment details.

If it sounds ok, ask him to send you a contract before you do anything. If he is a clueless nobody looking to use you, he'll probably freak out at the idea of getting a contract made and run a mile. If he's legit then you can read the contract, get it checked by a professional to make sure it's sound, and feel happier about moving forward.

I'm no expert but I hope this helps a little..

[lozpie.livejournal.com]

heh, I replied before you edited...

I find it odd that he mentions tax forms and not A CONTRACT? contracts always come first.

He sounds patronizing. Most people looking for illustrators find them using catalogs, at least from what I've been told. So him approaching you like this through deviantart - and in my opinion - talking down to you, makes me feel like he's looking for a clueless student type to rip off. Did he tell his daughter to find him an artist?

the whole sentence but especially this annoyed me:
"you will not have contact with the toy company, you are a sub-contractor."

I'm interested to see what his next response will be....

[dreamerwolf856.livejournal.com]

I agree, definatly get a contract. Maybe go through e-lance or guru.com, because they offer escrow services.

[wolf-nymph.livejournal.com]

good suggestions! I didn't even know those sites existed, I've always written up my own contracts. But going through them would help legitimize it. =3

[redrumwolf.livejournal.com]

Drop it.. or get a good contract.
Keep ur rights.
And dont let a Toy factory go ahead and make money off ur back either, or lose rights of the drawings.

Sounds waaaaaay to fishy I think.. >_>

[wolf-nymph.livejournal.com]

contrac, for sure! Dreamer suggested going through a site like guru.com, which will help legitimize the contract if it's ever called into question. =3

[snala.livejournal.com]

From what I am getting out of this, it appears that he is using your art, and wants to continue using your art and selling it to his company as his original work.

Is this correct?
If so, beware. Most people get thousands of dollars for such work directly with toy companies. Of course depending on how well the project is projected to sell.

[wolf-nymph.livejournal.com]

I think it's more like he's using my art to sell his idea or his company's idea. If the idea sells to the toy company, he wants to hire me to make custom packaging artwork for the toys!

[maui-dolphin.livejournal.com]

Ask for a contract first :/

[wolf-nymph.livejournal.com]

*nods* will do!

[lastres0rt.livejournal.com]

Either stay away or go directly to the toy company.

It sounds like he wants work-for-hire, or at least that's what it FEELS like, and you deserve, at minimum, a written contract that you can lawyer over. You deserve your rights protected.

Also, get an advance.

[wolf-nymph.livejournal.com]

An advance sounds fabulous for sure. =3 No work until payment received, I've been ripped off before by not doing so.

[sh-sareena.livejournal.com]

Being subcontracted, unless its over a $600 job he does NOT need your tax info. I agree with the idea of an advance and I would honestly ask him to make you an offer, that way you know if he is serious. If its just someone trying to rip you off, they might not know what to offer... or you might get a really great offer and happily walk yourself to the bank!

Make sure and get that toy company info though!!

[wolf-nymph.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure why he would need my tax info in the first place though. Isn't that for me to manage? I'm not at all comfortable with giving him that kind of information.

So far he hasn't given me the toy company name, but I updated the post with our current correspondance.

[kuwaizair.livejournal.com]

i thought you needed differnt things to work in that industry.

I don't know what else to say, other than an agree ment on why his kid contacted you, from deviant art, that sounds off.

I would get a guru.com account. I think you need premium ones to get the best out of it.

[rmoorcat.livejournal.com]

...and, what country is this person in? most of the time things outside of the US you will need to use international lawyer languages, cause diferent countries have differing laws and protections...

[wolf-nymph.livejournal.com]

The information on the bottom of each email says they are in Florida. =3

[xipoid.livejournal.com]

If he is really a professional, have him supply you with his and the company's information and draw up a contract outlining at least these conditions:


1) In the event the company rejects his idea, clearly outline the ownership of copyright and distribution rights of the images you have created.

2) You will be paid X for the three images via some payment schedule regardless of the company's decision.

3) In the event the company accepts his idea, (whatever job he is offering to you).


Should he become resistant or if X is zero, I suggest avoiding all business as it is a sign of ulterior motives.

[wolf-nymph.livejournal.com]

Good tips, thank you! I will be sure to include them in a contract if it comes to that point. =3

[marlinkhylacat]

I'm with the others that this sounds kinda shady, or at least unprofessional. Other times I've seen this kind of request pop up, it all too often translates as: "You will get a small one-time fee, while I will reap long-term benefits off your work that you will lose all rights to."

If he gives you the toy company's info, you should contact them directly, say so-and-so contacted you for a project for them, and you need to know the exact details of this project before you can agree to anything. You could even go a step a further and volunteer to work directly with the company instead of through this middleman (you could do a little work for him initially, if you're guilt-wracked; just watch your rights). Chances are, if this company likes your designs enough to pay someone else for them, they'd be willing to pay you DIRECTLY for them.

[wolf-nymph.livejournal.com]

You will get a small one-time fee, while I will reap long-term benefits off your work that you will lose all rights to."
I'm worried about that myself, so in my latest email I mentioned something like it. Updated my post with our current emails. =3

And yeah, my experience with Middle Men is not a good one as well... =/

[wolf-nymph.livejournal.com]

All valid points. The use of my artwork in particular upsets me, which I actually mentioned to him in my latest email to him. I also asked (again) for the name of the toy company to validate this project a little more.

[neongryphon.livejournal.com]

As a sub-contractor, he does not need you to fill in any tax information. It is YOUR responsibility to do that, not his. I avoid anything that requires me to disclose personal financial information. He's not offering you employment, but a commission. As such he should pay you for your art at your prices, and I would charge additional fees for commercial reproduction rights. I don't work on roylaties as they WILL rip you off 90% of the time. If he does not agree by those terms and put good money down *up-front,* then he's a basement scammer and should be avoided.

[wolf-nymph.livejournal.com]

That was my understanding as well! That he doesn't need my tax information whatsoever, just valid proof that he hired me for the job and paid the amount he's reporting as a business expense (like the contract, the work, fincial receipts, etc).

[neolucky.livejournal.com]

Everything about this screams NO. Everything. From the daughter contacting you, to his use of your art to promote his ideas in the first place.

As a freelance illustrator, that right off the batt would have had be declining and asking him to *never* use my work without permission again, and to contact an artist himself instead of using his daughter. (If it is his kid, who knows)

Sounds harsh but there's WAY too many asshats out there. Opportunity or not, this sounds too fishy to be right.

[firewire.livejournal.com]

The "Tax Id form" makes me worry. Due to the fact it requires your social security number.

[iguanaartgirl.livejournal.com]

seconded. NEVER hand that info out over DA to some guy who claims he can give you a job :P

[armaina.livejournal.com]

now I know contacts have already been mentioned and you're looking into that, I'm curious to know if you have considered commercial prices.

Basically, (even if you don't take this job due to the nature of it) if you haven't thought about it yet I think it would be a good time to find out how much you will charge for commercial work.

Someone I know that does tshirt designs often charge a 1000$ flat fee for the user to have full rights. This is mostly to get gain out of it without messing with royalty fees. (makes writing up contracts a lot easier for companies and such) of course, if you've already worked up your own commercial fees then awesome.

Course I still wouldn't agree to this, just more of a thought for anything more professional... Also when you're declining I'd also clearly state that he can't use that image he pieced together as it is copyrighted material so if there's any future complications or possible knock off, he was clearly warned.

[terrellztoonz.livejournal.com]

I would watch this guy--the whole thing sounds off AND your copyrighted work is already being messed with. Honestly, go with your gut! **HUGS**

[xianjaguar.livejournal.com]

If I were you, I would NOT do it. Too many red flags. Run.

[akeyla.livejournal.com]

somebody who cant define what he wants and do it directly nor provides more information on what and who sounds like:
a) he's hiding something (wants freebies)
b) has no idea what he is doing
c) is seriously dumb


to me it sounds as if its the same kid


to give it a fully try, why not tell him purely honestly how much you would want? if he is just b) and he would pay, I mean, it is still fair.
still, I smell fish. Keep us updated?

[iguanaartgirl.livejournal.com]

BE PICKY. If you don't inquire about every detail and have it set in stone before you begin, they will walk all over you and rob you. I lost 1,100 to a scum employer because I wasn't "picky".

Honestly, this sounds extremely shady. Don't do it.

[gizmo-nine.livejournal.com]

This has red flags all over it. Of course I also tend to look on the "what if" side of things.

He should have already had a contract ready before he ever contacted you. It should say who he is, who the company is that will ultimately end up using the work, what artwork is needed, and what it is needed for. The "what it is needed for" part would cover the what and where it will be used.
You might think "well he only just contacted me so he wouldn't have known to have that written up" but think for a moment. If you are going to propose a design idea to a company, wouldn't you already have a LIST of artists in mind rather than just one and a general plan for what you need from the potential artist long before talking to any of them?

What it sounds like he is asking for is someone to do art for him that he can then present to a company and have them do whatever they want with it. As in he pays you for the art with no mention of copyrights or royalties, the company pays him for the art/concept expecting they are also paying for the copyrights, then they take the art/concept and use it however they want. You find out a year down the line when some new toy hits the market with your art all over the package. You contact the company and they say they bought it from a graphic designer, Mr. contractor is dust in the wind.

The other thing that has me thinking is... if he wants your tax information and is shy about contracts, what he is looking to do is hire you as a temporary employee rather than a contracted artist. If you are an employee of a company, and you come up with something for that company (artwork, concept designs, inventions), the rights to that item automatically go to the company.

To avoid getting scammed, make sure he understands you are doing this as someone who is self employed and therefor have no reason to give him your tax information. Also make sure the contract is very specific about who will have what rights to the art.

To be honest, even if this isn't a scam, this guy is far from professional and personally I would avoid him.

Whatever you choose (because after all no mater what we say here, its your decision) I would ask that you place caution before enthusiasm. At least you seem to have a good head on your shoulders and knew enough to ask what others think. ^_^
good luck.

[frisket17.livejournal.com]

Big Red Flag:

From him:
"I still need an estimate so I know if I can afford you or not. Keep in mind there will be three animals of similar complexity as the fox. Also, let's make sure we include the rest of the body of the animal. Not just the head. I don't mean to be pushy but, since I cannot afford to go to a large agency I'm reaching out to various artists. I really need an answer."


He claims he's an art director, wants to mass produce your designs, already has used your art without permission, and doesn't have the ability to have a good budget?

It smells of a scam. Keep in mind if he uses your art.. you have to ask yourself:

- How close to the illustrations is he going? Is it basically creating a 3D form of what you draw?
- Do you get royalties? An idea is fine. Anyone can have one of those. However if you're supply the details, concepts, and everything about the toy that will be evolved into a toy, you've rights you shouldn't allow to be passed up.
- The fact he's so vague begs the fact of how legit this is. After all, this "art director" had to have his kid contact you?

I work for a tech firm. Any work that is being done by our art directors, they are direct. I worked in a Software company and was an illustrator for Six Red Marbles software for a while.

I can tell you that something sounds DAMN fishy about this and I would request that he send a contract to you of a purposed idea (as that's how an actual company, and a director of a company, would do it) They would send you a formal letter. If they want your art, to use your style, your designs, your concepts, you would be appropriately accommodated for this. He's seemingly wants to pay a flat (low) fee for something he can reuse and sell. That's the big thing. Right there.

If I were in your shoes, I would tell him that I am flattered, however without a contract outlying the full details of what is involved, the current and future usage of my art, and what my compensations are, I would not proceed.

My two cents. Best of luck dear

[jesspark.livejournal.com]

Like your previous letters, your latest response was very nicely worded and professional -- unlike the email to which you were replying. Yuck. Everything this dude has written sounds super shady, and, while you're right in that he hasn't been directly insulting, something about his text "tone" definitely comes off as condescending. He certainly isn't being friendly or forthright with you.

I don't have any experience in this field, but my gut tells me that you're doing the right thing by being cautious and that you aren't letting a great opportunity slip through your fingers (unless you mean a great opportunity to get scammed, maybe). Good luck, and do keep us updated; I know I want to know how it turns out! :)