Warning about a bad deal

[thornwolf.livejournal.com]

Fewer things get me as riled as people not paying artists what they're worth. I'm writing to alert folks of a specific example of this, simply by giving the details of what the pay rate is. You can make your own decisions for yourselves to work for this individual for these prices, it's of my opinion that any artist who contributes to something like this further encourages the low pay of skilled artists and perpetuates the opinion of non-artists that good art is cheap.

If you are approached by a user named Ken09199 on DeviantArt to draw items for his virtual pet site LuraPets http://www.lurapets.com/, please be aware of the pay rate he quoted me when I asked for more information.

Pay rate for items: $0.50 per completion of each item. Example here:
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/maison66/items/lettuce_iceberg.png

Pay rate for NPC's (characters): $5.00

Also, you can get up to $2.00 for items and up to $7.00 for NPC's if the artwork is, to quote, "fantastic". The owner of this site told me that they pay based on the quality of the image. If your art is better, naturally they'll pay more. A dollar more.

I'm aware some people may feel this is a fair deal. It's your choice of course, but realize that items of that quality, for most people, would take about 20 minutes to a half an hour, earning you a pay rate of $1.00 per hour for an item you can't sell elsewhere. Minimum wage in my state is something closer to $8.00 for reference.

I asked if that price was per useage of the item, like if someone buys the item on the site, is the artist entitled to a fraction of the proceeds. The answer is no, this is a one time payment of 50 cents per item drawn.

Here's my official response:
I'm sorry but that is horribly unreasonable. Especially as pay is
completely based on someone's opinion . If my work is as good as you
said it was when you approached me you'd already know that I take my
work very seriously and consider it just that: work. I wouldn't ask
you to do your job for a dollar an hour for something you won't be
able to sell anywhere else, please don't ask the same of me.

Best of luck finding "quality" artists who will find these prices
reasonable but I can assure you, they're hard to find.

I'm of course not here to bash the individual, after all he approached me on his own accord and complimented me on my work, but I felt the need to draw attention to yet another example of why our market is so bad, that these are the prices people expect to pay for quality work.

Comments

[clickclackcat.livejournal.com]

About a week or so ago, there was a person that thought I was overcharging for $5 pieces of art. They were ACEO's admittedly, but with full background and a of my time spent in them. They thought I should have been charging $15 for a sheet of eight ACEOs that I had spent a MINIMUM of four hours on because "You can buy a pack of cards at walmart for only $5!! I can get full page, full color commission for only $15!" Ignore the fact I was selling original watercolors and all that jazz...

Nothing surprises me anymore but I sympathize with the situation. :/

[vantid.livejournal.com]

Pshhh I prefer to sell my ACEOs for 30 to 50 dollars. People do not understand that the size of the art doesn't matter, but the time and skill that goes into it.

[fallimar.livejournal.com]

it's a big problem, especially for artists that are... you know... really good, but not well-known :|
NOT talking about myself at all here, since I'm not fantastic and don't ever claim to be - but it's a problem I see all the time happening to my peers on FA and other art sites - price wars.
In an ideal world we'd be able to charge by the hour, but realistically people want to see a price list and order art as if they were ordering food off a menu - piece w/ background, sketch, full CG coloured lineart, etc. The fact that each piece takes different amounts of time and effort to complete satisfactorily is something that most people who aren't artists don't really seem to understand - not saying they don't know there's a lot of work involved, it's more of a question of not knowing that there's no 'template' for the work that most artists do, and that you can't pull good poses and anatomy and colouring out of a hat (good referencing practices notwithstanding - a point for another time!). Really, it's a terminology problem - customers want a product when they're really asking for a service that produces a product, and it's the process you pay for.

The real problem comes from the fact there are so many artists around who offer commissions now - and why pay $50 for work from artist A who's charging 'real' prices when artist B does work of a similar quality for $30? People don't charge what they're worth because they can't afford to when people are undercutting significantly all round. The market's now full of customers who don't understand the process or value of the work involved, and so to survive you've got to either lower your prices or just... become much, much better and hope your work attains some sort of 'name brand' status, because no matter how good you are, unless people know about you and talk about you, you ain't going nowhere in the fandom :|

sad. :(

[armaina.livejournal.com]

If it were personal work, I'd agree to a point, but this isn't personal work, this is commercial work. This is artwork that is being used to 'sell' a product to make money off of, even if that money is only via advertisements of the site. The art, especially in petsites, is what grabs people's attention and gets them to join.

Lesser known or not, you should not allow yourself to only paid for 50 cents to 7 dollars for a single piece of commercial artwork ESPECIALLY when when there are no royalties.

[dazen-cobalt.livejournal.com]

Ugh I learned this lesson the hard way. A few years back I took a commish(as a way to test the waters to see if I could possible do them) At that time and still currently I didn't think my art was all that great so I charged relatively low. 15 for a fully colored pic. When all was said and done I felt like complete Sh*t. A lot of hard work and time went into that piece. of course like I said I don't have the greatest work but it made me reaize just how much effort and time artist put into a commish. So thats a lesson learned but it was a good lesson really. Since I understand how it works now I try my best to be understanding(and since my char is complicated especially facial feature wise I try to throw in a little extra) but yeah its uber sad to see artist reduced down to this

[hobokitten.livejournal.com]

I can see why people do this.
I myself charge crap change for my commissions because really? I've offered them at higher prices, and got no bites, and I really undervalue my work because frankly, I think I'm terrible.
I know part of my problem is because I'm relatively unknown, and because I'm rather nervous, and come off unsociable and distant.
We really need people to start giving general prices, or perhaps have a forum where we can get Price checks. That way, people like me who are not really sure about the quality of their art, can have those who know more about art, and pricing, give their two cents.

[fallimar.livejournal.com]

bingo. Same here. I'd LOVE to have a few other people who know artwork take a look at my stuff and help me price it - but truthfully, if nobody's going to pay it, I don't know really... I might just have to keep up the practice and art courses for another... twenty years >..>

[thaily.livejournal.com]

Pfft, if someone asked me for a 5 dollar commission I'd laugh in their face.

To add insult to injury, this guy obviously wants the commercial rights to the art as well.

Crap on that.

[kuwaizair.livejournal.com]

if its for a pet site isn't that like a 'package deal'?

[the-lest.livejournal.com]

I'm revising my prices at the moment. I really don't know WHAT I should charge. If I charge low prices, I get more business, but I get paid crap money for what I do. If I charge higher prices I don't get much business. I considered making a post on this community asking for advice, but don't know if it would be an appropriate post to make... what do you (and anyone else) think?

[fallimar.livejournal.com]

since I upped mine I've had to scrape for commissions, but the upshot is that the people I work with now seem MUCH more connected with what they actually want, and not just the ones with spare change :)

[kuwaizair.livejournal.com]

how old is the site owner? I seen a few 'kids' seeking artists for their pet sites. they saw 2 dollars per drawing was a good deal.
hence in my opinion, 13 yr olds sholdn't try to run communial pet sites.

i don't know if there is one here that has something like powerpets or even wajas caliber here.
so i guess 'sorry' to them if they achived it.

[white-tean.livejournal.com]

That was my first thought - "Gee, well when I was 5 I probably would've thought that was a great deal!"

[hobokitten.livejournal.com]

Ugh. I'm 18 and I can't imagine selling my art, as well as the Commercial rights to it for so low :/

[nambroth.livejournal.com]

A while later-- but I was approached by this fellow too. He essentially said he needed all rights (well of course, considering!) and was offering me a healthy $1/artwork completed. I also asked him about a contract and he told me that there would not be a contract. Sounds like a nightmare to me.

[kyrahlynn.livejournal.com]

I got a note from him awhile back... and promptly marked it as spam XD I didn't even read it that closely, but he sure sounded full of himself.

[lozpie.livejournal.com]

I've been contacted by petsites before, offering NOTHING, or the virtual money from their site (LOL)

The convo usually goes like this

me: How much will I get paid?
them: paid?

yeaah...

I also echo what a few other people have said about it being difficult to charge for commissions, being in the UK. I was offering conbadges for $30 usd recently but thats only about £10 gbp by the time paypal fees and shipping comes off. Which is really, nothing, everything here is so expensive. But I enjoyed doing them so I don't mind too much. But I spent about 10 hours on each of them... so, if I was to pay myself minimum wage, I should charge at least £50 (£5 per hour, min wage is actually 5.52..), but no one's going to spend $100 usd on a con badge!

examples if anyone's curious:
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/1496116/
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/1476758/

[zyleeth.livejournal.com]

He approached me just yesterday actually, but I was linked to your entry on your LJ and saw how cheaply I'd be paid. D: I politely gave him my usual prices and haven't heard from him since. XD His Deviantart page claims that he is 29, but I'm not immediately inclined to believe that.

hey

[ken09199.livejournal.com]

I pay the minimum to maximum rate as petsites do thanks :P i understand why some of you decline b/c your art is just amazing which i have no problem with you declineing :) I assure you I am 29 years old and all this money i'm paying is coming out of pocket so i can't be spending 1,000USD each week on art as i have to pay for programming as well :/ I hope some of you don't get the wrong impression

Ken

hey :P

[ken09199.livejournal.com]

I pay the minimum to maximum rate as petsites do thanks :P i understand why some of you decline b/c your art is just amazing which i have no problem with you declineing :) I assure you I am 29 years old and all this money i'm paying is coming out of pocket so i can't be spending 1,000USD each week on art as i have to pay for programming as well :/ I hope some of you don't get the wrong impression

Ken

Re: hey :P

[thaily.livejournal.com]

So you pay the programmers 2 dollars an hour?

[ken09199.livejournal.com]

oh also my payrates have went up as i've been working more for the site this month and i know there still not great but i'm offering

Items - 1.00usd - 80x80 image
NPCs - 7-15.00USD - 250x250 image :)

Ken

[thornwolf.livejournal.com]

Again, its not the size, its the time that goes into it. Do you go to the grocery store and ask for a can of caviar for 3 bucks because it comes in such a tiny can?

[wyna-hiros.livejournal.com]

Oh good lord.

Those prices are beyond insulting.

[vividuos.livejournal.com]

Agreed, 100 per cent.

[uncensord.livejournal.com]

That's the price rate of the virtual pet industry, unless you're either fucking Neopets or Subeta.

$0.50-3 pet item drawn depending on artist
$5-15 per NPC/pet drawn depending on artist
$20-40 per map drawn depending on artist

Those are the rates set in the virtual pet market, and everyone who works in that industry is perfectly content with those prices....art wise. I can't say the same for coders since I'm not one. A lot of the time however, most virtual pet artists work for free. Of course the artists that tend to frequent areas like that are young or just starting out with their drawing.

I work for Lurapets and I work under Ken as Art Director. The rates I'm getting are fair to me since that's what I usually charge when it comes to vitual pets images. It's not for everyone, like I said, most artists are usually still in middle school to high school.

Also, the artists we have, 20+ currently, are content with what they are getting and so far, I haven't heard much complaining....well besides this post, but that's about it.

Just my two cents.

[chapperice.livejournal.com]

I personally think it's not too bad, considering it seems like it's still a pretty new site. Also being someone who cranks out her art pretty quickly, if I were working by the hour, I wouldn't be getting much.

I do think that some of Ken's business practices seem a little sketchy, in the way he recruits artists, and how there's so many when he has so little money.

As far as pay for the artists goes, however, I think it's fair depending on the artist. I'd be pretty happy to get $5 for drawing an animal. I think the pay should increase as the site's success increases, and hopefully it'll happen some day.

......Mmm but maybe I only think all of this because I'm a teenager?

[thefilthhigh.livejournal.com]

I worked for this guy for a while but eh.
It wasn't the pay that was bothering me, it was other things.


But this is a norm in the petsite world guys. Look around a bit more - if this appalled you, you'll be shocked at was else goes on.

[thefilthhigh.livejournal.com]

*what
durp

[hummingangel.livejournal.com]

Oh my gosh! I was in the exact same position as you. I worked for him, too, and he kept pestering me to draw items quickly, but I took my time. i was spending at least an hour on each item to get to the quallity of the items on that site..and only for 50C. It was just so low..

[hunter-san.livejournal.com]

Oh, that guy. I got a note from him and the minute I read the prices and "minimum of 15 items a month" I sent a polite decline citing work, university and higher paying commissions.

[iguanaartgirl.livejournal.com]

I'd have told the guy, in a more polite but still as forward manner, to "shove it."

[chronidu.livejournal.com]

I've been approached by him on 3 occasions now, and sadly these rates aren't uncommon for petsites. And what you said is very true, when your an unknown artist who no-one wants to commission, these seem very fair. But having worked a few petsites, these items can take as much as an hour, and the Pets/NPC's can take 5-hours to days depending on how much processing and revisions have to be made to them. It's severe underpay, and should only be suggested as a sort of menial volunteer work to maybe a petsite/community you happen to enjoy...

[ken09199.livejournal.com]

I think it's funny how half the artist that say i've sent them a note i have no idea who they are..


And my rates have increased thanks :)

[airukitsu.livejournal.com]

a fifty cents increase for the smaller items is not even enough to make anyone think differently about it.

Either raise your prices to some acceptable amount and get those "really good" artists you are hunting for, or stick with the crew you have now and stop coming back here to try to make yourself sound fair to people that will NEVER see you that way.

D:

[fireklawz.livejournal.com]

Huh. His rate for a paid graphic designer's position is 25 cents an avatar. I know some of you might think, pish posh, 25 cents is perfect for a 60 by 60 px avatar, but to be honest, I take 45 min-1 hr on these. That's like 25 cents an hour, almost.

[feanyx.livejournal.com]

The thing that bothers me is how most everyone that replied is talking about how much they charge for art of a certain size, and that $50 is fair or whatever.
NO IT ISN'T.
People, you're selling intellectual property, here! Not only should you be getting royalties, but you're seriously overcharging! These petsites obviously are taking advantage of kids and furries if your so-called "average pay" is correct! Imagine if Disney had given Chris Sanders $30 to hand over Stitch.