(no subject)

[tojothethief.livejournal.com]

Subject: Artist Beware: Commissioner fr0stbit3 also known as Wyldfire

WHO: fr0stbit3 or Wyldfire

WHERE: Commission was taken via twitter and google docs. Communication was done through email.

WHAT: Wing-it Chibi Commission

WHEN: Initial commission form was completed 3/21, commission was completed 5/18, final changes to the image were completed 5/19
(should be noted that these are generally completed faster but I was envoled in a car accident)

PROOF: All screenshots and art will be posted below

EXPLAIN:

On 3/21 I took my 4th batch of chibi commissions, this being one of them. Commissioner provided their details and paid promptly. Commission cost $50.



Here is the screenshot of the commission form splashpage.

http://imgur.com/E6Srw5s

Please note the guidelines and the examples.

On 5/18 I emailed the completed commission to Fr0stbit3. Here is the response.

http://imgur.com/ttFP2fe

At this point I figured the commissioner was not as happy as they could have been, but I did the work as described and figured the commission complete. The commissioner agreed that he would take the commission as is. He seemed fine with it and then asked about me making changes. I let him know the cost of re-sketching, re-inking and re-coloring those areas to his specifications.

http://imgur.com/cMJwXav

This is where communication went downhill. After I let him know the costs for changes he became frustrated with the cost and I explained that characters are simplified as part of the commission.

You can see in the screencaps that the commissioner continues to become more irate as time went on and I contiued to re-state my TOS. Finally, the emails came to a point where they were causing me stress and distracting me from work so rather than argue more, I went ahead and made the requested changes free of charge.

I enformed him of the TOS: http://imgur.com/IRswaqU
New email tread started: http://imgur.com/AL6UsjR
My email in return explaining my reasoning and letting him know to not commission me again: http://imgur.com/fXrHStv

The client then emailed me back with the image and circled all of the errors in the image.

Email about the errors: http://imgur.com/D1h7Jqo
Larger view of errors: http://imgur.com/gZDOSSn

The final commission I sent him with the requested changes: http://imgur.com/Vn6tQvZ

After this, there were a few more rude emails so I stopped responding.

Edited to fix a link

Comments

[ivorytigress.livejournal.com]

Beware well warranted. Thanks for posting Tojo.

[fr0stbit3works.livejournal.com]

I understand this was a wing it commission, but only the pose itself was. I gave her control over the pose of the character because I couldn't think of anything. Yes it says simplify, but never have I commissioned anyone who changed my characters anatomy without first informing me. As a creator of my species, I'm not a fan of my character being manipulated in such a way. Yes it says in the ToS that edits will cost extra, but in that SAME sentence it says "unless its the artists fault." My reference was very clear on the number of digits. I didn't know the digits were being reduced until after the fact and that shouldn't be my fault. This applies the same if I decided to wing it commissions and just change everyone's gender just because I feel like it. Wing it is an easy cop out to try to justify everything but it's not. Again the pose was wing it, not the freedom to change my character as the artist pleases.

[thegentilcat.livejournal.com]

Did it say, specifically, in the TOS of the auction that the Wing It was for free reign on the pose only, or did you just assume it was? Because, I really think you have Wing Its confused with YCHs. Unlike YCHs, Wing Its have always been about free reign over everything - from pose, to style, to expressions, etc. No WIP/edits are offered in Wing Its - that's the general rule.

Also, hadn't the artists supplied examples of what the final product would look like - with all examples having three toes in them? If those were the examples Tojo supplied, you - as the commissioner - should have understood that your character would have been handled in the same style; lesser toes and all.

[tyrano-tiggs.livejournal.com]

Can you please provide proof where only the pose was agreed to be wing-it/"Not the freedom to change my character as the artist pleases"? I ask because you reiterate this time and time again.
Like I and several others now have reiterated to you;
The artists commission splashpage completely contradicts your argument (http://i.imgur.com/E6Srw5s.png).

Namely: Characters and Markings will be simplified for better cuteness
Not just markings. The entire character. You explicitly agreed to a commission that gives the artist freedom to simplify your character and it's markings for 'better cuteness'.
I genuinely want to know what you thought was going to be simplified if not digits? It can't be markings because those are covered separately so what exactly were you expecting simplified?
You keep stressing this "unless the artists fault" but there is no fault on the artist; the artist made a stylistic choice that you were warned about in advance, namely, simplification.
Stylistic hands and feet are not in the same vein as changing a characters gender.
Again, as has been stated a few times previously; this could all have been prevented by reading the artists terms and then asking them directly to clarify something if a single toe was so important to you.

[totschrei.livejournal.com]

I might the odd one but I agree with the commissioner. The fault was on the artist for having many examples that four toes have been seen in examples as well simplified is a term questionable itself. Simplified can mean a different and variations of things. The amount asked for an artist mistake was wrong on the artist part as going against their own ToS, but they did end up at least giving the final product changed with no extra price only after a rough talk. And as "Wing Its" I have always came to believe only covers such: Pose, Style, and Theme. This doesn't mean changing a characters anatomy. I know I wouldn't want someone to make my tail shorter when it's long and fluffy.

Now, that being said, the overreaction and immature (hope this isn't against policy to say, apologies if so) of the commissioner does supply a beware. There is many ways that this could have gone about. If the commissioner kept a calm head and spoke this out then nothing like this would have happened. The twitter, the journals, and attitude here displayed is terrible and not someone I would want to work with based on that. I do, however, understand their side of view just not the reaction they gave. The only other problem I see here would be the nity picky of the commissioner of the larger resolution. Most pictures when drawn are not meant to be blown up to a large scale. It loses quality that way and that cannot be blamed on the artist. Those circles on the blown up image took me a while to be pointed out what was wrong. Those are so tiny mistakes that I would have never guessed about. Again that image wasn't meant to be seen at that scale.

I think if the commissioner had taken his attitude down a level this beware wouldn't have been made. Hopefully there is a lesson to be learned here. I haven't read many of the other comments so sorry if I repeat others.

[exo-formicidae.livejournal.com]

I think you put into words what I feel too. What simplification meant could be better worded from the artists side, and they have since done steps to make it clearer. The venting on twitter from the artist also made me a bit more likely to avoid them - If it was a personal twitter I wouldn't care, but it seems to be the same one they accepted the commission through and that is just unproffesional.

That said, absolutely nothing of that excuses the way the client responded. It was way over the top, pretty much straight up harassment, over something that could have been dealt with calmly and swiftly. There was a brief apology in the comments here, but then going straight back to talking to old ways. I was going to blacklist the client due to the inability to communicate proffesionally and understand the other side of the argument, decided to wait when I saw the apology - but then did it right away after the next few comments xD

also Mods - you've done a fab job so far on this post!

[fr0stbit3works.livejournal.com]

I tried being calm about it but the artist refused to budge and only when I got more aggressive like was when she finally made the correction. Being nice didn't work so I tried something else. Yes I may have over reacted but one thing that really really upsets me is when the artist jumps to social media to create unnecessary drama out of it. That's my biggest issue because it's between us and no one else. I am the person who loves to blow up my pictures. Sometimes I make them my wall paper or I print them out. So I like high res images. I for one draw very big and make sure I don't miss any little pixels or spots because it bothers my ocd.

[teekchan.livejournal.com]

I agree on the beware for attitude, and I wouldnt work with the buyer, but I do agree the toes shouldnt have been changed, especially since it's marked on the ref sheet. And apparently there was samples with 4 as well.

I simplify my chibis too, but they have block feet, and it's clearly in every single sample. It clear and obvious what they'll get.

[fr0stbit3works.livejournal.com]

I have many many great conversations with many big artists and one bad one appears and suddenly I'm the worst buyer in history.

My two cents, and some extra context

[kadathlj.livejournal.com]

When I heard Tojo had trouble with Wyldfire, I was like 'oh yeah, that guy'. He wanted to commission me, but balked when I said it cost money, and then tried to get me to commission him to pay for it (?!) and when I declined, he harassed me publicly and I ended up blocking him.

He later made a hate journal, calling out myself, Tojo, and other artists, wishing us bodily harm. Here's the link to the screenshot (he deleted the journal after people called him out on it) : https://imgur.com/AxGX6j4

This was from last year, so apparently Wyldfire had attempted to get art from Tojo prior, in some capacity. Possibly under a different name (he changes his name a lot). Just thought this might add more context to this situation, showing he's repeatedly gotten into fights with various artists, Tojo included.

Re: My two cents, and some extra context

[kattotang.livejournal.com]

I actually already posted a link to that screenshot in earlier comments, specifically because I remembered that he had "called out" Tojo in that journal. Can't really fathom why someone would get art from an artist after claiming to hate them so much, heh.

(frozen) Re: My two cents, and some extra context

[bourbon. (from livejournal.com)]

I think he was actually busted tracing one of Tojo's pictures in the past, and that was the cause of his hate of her.

He does seem to target a lot of the "upper echelon" of artists. I can figure out at least three of the names from that journal and all of them are artists with a LOT of watchers.

Re: My two cents, and some extra context

[sapphistscot.livejournal.com]

Ugh, what I'm getting from that is "how dare artists want to earn money and not want to be bestest friends with me and draw me free art!" Of course artists want to be paid, how else are they supposed to eat or pay bills?

RE: My two cents, and some extra context

[fr0stbit3works.livejournal.com]

I never implied you had to com.issiin me kadath. I wish you could have taken the time to talk to me instead of jumping to outrageous conclusions. I said I was doing commissions to raise money to buy a commission from you and jokingly asked if you wanted in. I knew you weren't interested but you jumped the gun.

I have a sarcastic sense of humor, that's who I am. But everyone takes me way to seriously and can't take a joke and won't give me a chance to say it was just a joke

[weisk.livejournal.com]

Such a frustrating beware on the side of the commissioner. I personally don't see the big fuss about the one less toe, but I'm fairly relaxed about my characters, and would expect that a chibi = less detailed limbs/fingers/etc. To me it just seems like an odd thing to be upset about, but I guess I just expect different things when I hear the word "chibi" or other similar words.

Very frustrating reading the comments made by the commissioner, though. Really just seems like they're trying to deflect all blame and wrongdoing off them and back onto the artist (or anyone else). The "woe is me everyone hates me" kind of comments especially bug me. I don't understand why they think making a big deal out of this is going to help them at all. Telling a bunch of people that you're /going/ to provide screenshots (which later did happen) and complaining that this one situation is going to ruin everything isn't really helping.... Your attitude got you here, the way you're dealing with that now is going to impact you more than anything.

[ime2667.livejournal.com]

Fr0sbit3works as constantly said he's going to post is side with screen shots in the comments. Has this actually happened?

I've tried looking but at this point there's 200+ and I can't find anything.

[thegentilcat.livejournal.com]

He did. This was his 'evidence' against Tojo.

http://imgur.com/a/hVuh3

Just the artist venting from the understandable frustration he caused her.

[talentedfool.livejournal.com]

I've got characters who have small yet important details about them that used to get overlooked and it would drive me up the wall when it happened, but it was my fault for not making it clear, not the artists' fault for not being a mindreader. I make a point of stressing it now. Learning experiences are like that. And being told it's going to take ten or twenty dollars to fix something that, while may have happened due to stylisation, is still a misrepresentation of the character is a real kick in the teeth. But there are politer and more civil ways to try to express these feelings, and resorting to nitpicking the art received just to prove a point and harassing the artist until they felt pressured into changing it just to wash their hands of you really isn't it.

IMO, I also think OP is in the wrong for those tweets! I get needing to vent about stuff, and this was definitely a super frustrating experience for them!But, when I get troublesome clients, I chew it out with friends through Skype, in private. Even if you're not naming names, if I saw an artist I commissioned publicly bemoaning another client, personally I'd feel uncomfortable. It's ugly airing that kind of dirty laundry out in the open like that. And an already upset and volatile client seeing himself being the butt of those tweets is just going to get even more upset.

But even with all that being said, the victim complex being displayed by the bewaree makes for resolving the issue impossible, and the language used by the bewaree in his journals and guilt tripping make my skin crawl. Saying a missing toe isn't that big of a deal, then turning around and nitpicking the finished art only after you start having personal issues with the artist? Coming in and accusing everyone commenting of taking popufur sides? I understand being upset, and I understand feeling victimised when the person you commissioned is not very subtly vaguetweeting about you, but there are still parts of this debacle that you need to take responsibility for, and it starts with the attitude displayed.

I wouldn't work with Fr0stbit3 as an artist at all, at the end of the day, and not because of the beware to be honest. I kind of read it and go, "well, that's really troublesome, but I wouldn't have handled it the way the artist did, so I doubt I'd run into these same issues". Everything I've seen them do and how they reacted to the beware however? Screams to me someone to be avoided not just as a client, but as a person.

Apparently he's improved his attitude from what it was over the years. Hopefully in another five or whatever years, he'll improve even more, and be able to handle things with more grace.

(Apologies for my chronic verbosity and two cents.)

wow.

[spiritlobo.livejournal.com]

It really gets my goat how I keep seeing the hyperbole on the commissioner's side. No one called you the "worst commissioner on the planet" but boy-howdy does your attitude stink.

I keep seeing "I wish you had talked to me" well, do you let them? Multiple people have not only tried to explain things, but have AGREED with you, and they still get their head bitten off.

It's not the previous bewares that tell me I never want to work with the commissioner: it's the way they acted here. Yikes yikes yikes.

[kidakins.livejournal.com]

I really should have seen the warning signs about this user when, after showing them a sketch for a commission, they asked me to draw up an entirely new sketch and pose. :/ I did it anyway because I'm still pretty new to this but looking back on it, I probably shouldn't have...

This beware + seeing the publicly displayed behavior spurred me to cancel the commission so I wouldn't be subjected to the same kind of nitpicking or rudeness... They asked if they could keep/use the sketch even after I gave them a full refund. I'm worried about the safety of my art now, but here's hoping nothing happens on that front.

Thanks for the beware, after seeing the behavior on both usernames and in the comments here, I feel like I dodged a bullet.

[spiritlobo.livejournal.com]

Wow...that's something.

I'm sorry you had to even put up with that. That's so not okay.

(frozen)

[ravensmoon666.livejournal.com]

Ugh, I knew I recognized that name. My mate is friends with Kabier and Frost has him added on Skype. He kept bugging my mate to tell Kabier to leave him alone. Claiming that "Kabier was harassing" him even though he was the one who wouldn't leave well enough alone.

I'm honestly appalled at how he responded to Tojo as her TOS specifically said that the character would be simplified. Beware is well warranted and we will both be blacklisting this guy.

(frozen)

[fr0stbit3works.livejournal.com]

It also states in that same TOS that corrections will be made if the artist makes a mistake.

And I'm pretty sure kabier talking smack about me on her twitter page counts as harassment.

Totally warranted

[aspen shilo bear (from livejournal.com)]

not only was the red circles uncalled for, but then they came to the A_B and started harassment?
totally warranted beware imo

[kipaki.livejournal.com]

obviously the commissioner shouldn't have gone on this tirade that has happened here and in the post. But honestly, and maybe it's just me because i draw, i would have just drawn the extra toes. I can't tell other artists how to work but it seems like such a quick fix to me. -shrugs-

either way it's resolved i suppose for better or for worst. I guess we've all learned something, i hope op and commissioner have better luck with compatible business partners in the future.

[fr0stbit3works.livejournal.com]

I assumed that being a high end artist as tojo is that she'd just fox the mistake and move on. It upset me that she wanted to charge an extra 40% just to add one toe when it was clear in my ref. The term "simplified for better cuteness" is a vague term. For one, her definition of cute is not my definition of cute.

This issue is far from resolved because every single day I have new people blocking me because of what she posted. Several of which I spoke to before and never had a problem with but suddenly if you mess with one popufur, suddenly they all hate you. I tried submitting my own beware against her for her bad business trade but my post was rejected, and it hurts me even more that hers was approved.

(frozen)

[fr0stbit3works.livejournal.com]

This post caused all of my top favorite artists on my watch list to block me :)

Thank you very much for making me out as a terrible person and hated by many in this furry community. I thought it would have helped me considering my life sucks to begin with with my abusive father and alcoholic mother. I wanted something good here. And I had some great moments with people such as Ruadri, Byzil, and more. But one thing happens like this artist trying to scam me of my money and I'm the bad person. I'm only human, yet you expect everyone to be perfect.

I can no longer do business with anyone because the people I like all blocked me. Thank you

(frozen) mod comment

[celestinaketzia.livejournal.com]

Howdy.

Given that you've already previously been temporarily banned for guilt tripping Tojo over this post, it has been escalated to a permanent ban.

[dragontripmon.livejournal.com]

This is really alarming considering the beware is warranted but it's even worse from the op that not really taking advice about his behavior that causing his bad reputation as well as the really concerning posts. It's really does solidify the beware rather well.

[kell0x.livejournal.com]

RWow yikes, beware well warented