(no subject)

[tojothethief.livejournal.com]

Subject: Artist Beware: Commissioner fr0stbit3 also known as Wyldfire

WHO: fr0stbit3 or Wyldfire

WHERE: Commission was taken via twitter and google docs. Communication was done through email.

WHAT: Wing-it Chibi Commission

WHEN: Initial commission form was completed 3/21, commission was completed 5/18, final changes to the image were completed 5/19
(should be noted that these are generally completed faster but I was envoled in a car accident)

PROOF: All screenshots and art will be posted below

EXPLAIN:

On 3/21 I took my 4th batch of chibi commissions, this being one of them. Commissioner provided their details and paid promptly. Commission cost $50.



Here is the screenshot of the commission form splashpage.

http://imgur.com/E6Srw5s

Please note the guidelines and the examples.

On 5/18 I emailed the completed commission to Fr0stbit3. Here is the response.

http://imgur.com/ttFP2fe

At this point I figured the commissioner was not as happy as they could have been, but I did the work as described and figured the commission complete. The commissioner agreed that he would take the commission as is. He seemed fine with it and then asked about me making changes. I let him know the cost of re-sketching, re-inking and re-coloring those areas to his specifications.

http://imgur.com/cMJwXav

This is where communication went downhill. After I let him know the costs for changes he became frustrated with the cost and I explained that characters are simplified as part of the commission.

You can see in the screencaps that the commissioner continues to become more irate as time went on and I contiued to re-state my TOS. Finally, the emails came to a point where they were causing me stress and distracting me from work so rather than argue more, I went ahead and made the requested changes free of charge.

I enformed him of the TOS: http://imgur.com/IRswaqU
New email tread started: http://imgur.com/AL6UsjR
My email in return explaining my reasoning and letting him know to not commission me again: http://imgur.com/fXrHStv

The client then emailed me back with the image and circled all of the errors in the image.

Email about the errors: http://imgur.com/D1h7Jqo
Larger view of errors: http://imgur.com/gZDOSSn

The final commission I sent him with the requested changes: http://imgur.com/Vn6tQvZ

After this, there were a few more rude emails so I stopped responding.

Edited to fix a link

Comments

Mod Comment

[celestinaketzia.livejournal.com]

Hi Tojo!

There seems to be a broken link that leads to your imgur account instead of the cap in question.

Also there's an uncensored name through some of the emails, if you could please censor that.

Lastly, do you happen to have the rude emails he continued to send?

Re: Mod Comment

[tojothethief.livejournal.com]

This should be fixed now. Thank you.

[kamilamutt.livejournal.com]

That nitpicking on the 'colouring errors' is ridiculous, even when the supposed mistakes circled, they do not even stand out at first (or second) glance. If he thought it was overpriced, he shouldn't have gotten it on the first place, what a rude thing to say.
Thanks for the beware, I don't think anybody would want a customer with that kind of attitude.

[kayla-la.livejournal.com]

When we were reviewing this post and I opened that specific image, I think the first thing I asked the other mods is what the red circles were supposed to be indicating. I really couldn't tell and was confused.

[leahtaur.livejournal.com]

I would say the only thing I'd agree with is the number of toes issue. If features like that are routinely simplified from four to three in the finished product, it should probably be stated in the terms since I think most customers would not expect that kind of detail to be simplified - markings and overall level of detail, sure, but I know some customers consider a thing like number of toes to be a defining characteristic of their species.

The redlined image he sent back with the "errors" circled says it all though. Not to mention his comment that it seems to have only taken a few hours - how long does he expect someone to spend drawing a chibi with simple cel-shaded colouring, exactly? I don't think there's anything you could have done to make him happy. I'd be curious to see the rude emails sent after the image was fixed too, after you gave him exactly what he asked for.

[fayv.livejournal.com]

I agree with this.

Number of toes and things can be an important aspect of a character to people and your warning that characters would be simplified doesn't really make me think of things like toes or fingers and I'd have been surprised to find that out.

That's a very easy fix though, just a line explaining that the style you use normally have 3 toes.

That being said his attitude is horrendous and the beware is warranted.

[leahtaur.livejournal.com]

Oh, just wanted to point out to the mods that the tag with his name appears to be misspelled. :)

[celestinaketzia.livejournal.com]

huuhhh. I think LJ ate it. Let me tinker with tags.

[wyla.livejournal.com]

Ehhh, I'm going to be the unpopular opinion here and say that I do agree with them on (most) of the circled areas. For a $50 image that is a lot of missed pixels / sloppy colour filling. I understand that they are labelled at "quick cartoony commissions" but I would expect a little more attention to detail than what was shown.

That doesn't, however, excuse their attitude but I can understand their frustration.

(frozen)

[bourbon. (from livejournal.com)]

It doesn't matter what the pricetag is, his attitude is the same. I did a $15 shaded sketch for him a couple of years ago and he had the same attitude when I told him it would cost extra ($5-10) to add a cowl that he hadn't specified that he wanted in the picture. I also repeated my TOS to him multiple times and it's ended up with him trying to smear my name because I tell others about the issue I had with him.

[jebboy.livejournal.com]

Considering his reaction to getting a beware because of how he treated a client and his habit of holding commissions hostage I'm not surprised he has a terrible attitude dealing with buying commissions ether. Beware well warranted specially since he already appeared on here before.

Edit: The beware for him as an artist is http://artists-beware.livejournal.com/864661.html

[likeshine.livejournal.com]

Guy is so angry at OP "removing limbs" from his character, but I see arms, legs, and a tail. I think he means "removing digits"

[sapphistscot.livejournal.com]

Didn't this guy (Fr0stbit3) deny being Wyldfire in the last AB post?

[dragontripmon.livejournal.com]

Yes and from that beware he did'nt handle it well at all.

[poizenkat.livejournal.com]

I agree with the number of toes issue. Especially considering two of your examples show characters with four fingers. To some people (like myself for some characters) the number of digits is important.
Everything else was overly nitpicky and they were pretty rude.

Is it me.....

[dragontripmon.livejournal.com]

Also i'm not sure if anyone here saw these journals here. Considering there's seems to be way more than this which is not helping at all.

http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/7583392/

http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/7586387/

http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/7607636/

Though it's really concerning how he's reacting to all this as well as his prior history here. He just really can't handle being courteous and respectful.

Re: Is it me.....

[darkunisha.livejournal.com]

His twitter is about the same too, you'll have to scroll down a bit but needless to say, there's a lot of aggression and such there. :/

https://twitter.com/Fr0stbit3works/with_replies

[bearprince.livejournal.com]

As someone who also automatically draws... almost all characters with cartoonish digits, I think maybe I can clarify for some people who seem confused by the artist seeming to add four digits to some of the examples?

What the artist and myself as well seem to do is draw three fingers plus a thumb on hands, which equals four digits, and then three toes on the feet, which do not include thumbs. It looks to me in the finished commission that perhaps the thumbs on the critter's hands are hidden (being obscured by the rest of the hand for the left hand, and behind the tail for the right hand. you can see where the thumb begins on the palm), which would make this commission have the same number of digits as shown in the artist's examples.

I've also had to add digits to commissioners who realized they wanted a more realistic amount, but they were always very understanding about it and the way this commissioner reacted was incredibly out of line.

[aerospiritual.livejournal.com]

tbh, I feel sorry for anyone who has to deal with this guy on either side of the coin since it's pretty obvious that he can't behave in a respectful manner.

[fr0stbit3works.livejournal.com]

I like how my beware post against her was denied but hers was approved. I guess it's true that people always support the popular one. Thank you very much for this.

Or maybe it isn't

[jebboy.livejournal.com]

This group is not a popularity group. If your beware didn't go through then ether;
A) The mods haven't actually seen it yet
B) You didn't have enough evidence
C) The beware didn't follow the guidelines.
Don't claim the group is seedy because one thing didn't seem to go your way.
Edit: forgot to finish the title

[tyrano-tiggs.livejournal.com]

The digits is a minor issue but it's very unsurprising to see them continue to act this way.
Between twitter and FA journals, definitely glad I blacklisted this person as soon as I saw their first beware

[mortymaxwell.livejournal.com]

The tone in his new call out journal really rubs me the wrong way and the bewares on him that have been posted here really make me uncomfortable.

http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/7611761/

This doesn't look like a good effort to correct and change his past mistakes to me. =/

[fr0stbit3works.livejournal.com]

No one gives me a chance to fix anything! Everyone always jumps to the past for every little thing! Even tojo did! She used stuff from years ago to justify herself for now. Even though it has no correlation

[torch-tiger.livejournal.com]

It took me a bit to figure out what the red circles were showing. That is a bit extreme.

On the toe thing though. From a third party observer point of view, it kinda looks like you drew one less toe just so you could then offer to fix it for more money.
If you are going to mess with the characters anatomy you need to let the commissioner know, and they need to approve it.
In other words you don't deserve extra money for not following the ref.
Fortunately you did the right thing and fixed your mistake.

[tojothethief.livejournal.com]

I have done many of these chibi commissions and have simplified all of them to 3 toes, like those in the examples. If I wanted to make extra money by making more work for myself then I would just charge more in the first place.

[kayla-na.livejournal.com]

Oh, I didn't know he was Wyldfire as well. Not a pleasant person to interact with. Though he's never commissioned me, he's sent me some pretty nasty PMs over FA for another artist's behalf. :/ His reactions in this journal aren't that great either. Thanks for this beware.

[kattotang.livejournal.com]

I can vouch for this. I remember sometime last year he wrote crap about you on Tumblr as well, though I don't know if you were even aware of that or not.

(frozen) Re: A Bit More About Wyldfire...

[sapphistscot.livejournal.com]

Yikes, that stuff involving Doktor-Savage is concerning. Eight months ago isn't a long time.

[catcooties.livejournal.com]

After hearing about this and seeing his passive aggressive tweets aimed at people for not acknowledging his gift art he made for them, I noticed something is deeply wrong with this guy. Definitely blacklisted from commissioning me, awful attitude. You don't treat an artist like this, no matter how upset you may be with what you recieved.

[fr0stbit3works.livejournal.com]

People can choose to take whatever side they want. I responded in the way I did because of the things that the artist in question posted about me instead of helping to try o work this out. I have screenshots of twitter posts where she does nothing about ramble on about me instead of trying to communicate with me. Yes I got upset over this, who wouldn't? She even used things against me from my past to make this situation worse. I will gladly post screenshots when I return home.

[jebboy.livejournal.com]

Again.
If you have the screenshots,provide the screenshots.
Claiming you have evidence and never giving it is going to help no one. In fact it is only backfiring on you it seems.

Edit: Whoops,dyslexia acting up and I missread the last line. My bad.

[sableantelope.livejournal.com]

I just want to chime in with one aspect of contract law:

Ambiguity in a contract always favours the one who did not write it.

In this case, my own interpretation would be that since the term in the Artist's offer 'simplification' became an issue due to it being ambiguous(ie: can an anatomy change be made or not as part of the simplification?) you have to read the agreement to favour the Buyer.

That makes me feel the extra toe should have been added free of charge as per the artist's TOS term of fixing mistakes. Now whether or not the change in toes should be deemed a mistake or simplification is the sticky ambiguous part of the agreement; but since Artist is the one who wrote it contraact, any interpretation needed to settle the deal should be done to favour the client.


--


I'm not commenting on the behaviour of either party since I don't have the energy right now to read all the messages and tweets/old ABs so it's not really fair of me to say anything. The inkling I'm getting from this thread is buyer 100% acted out of line; but I'm afraid that doesn't change the contract law side of things. :/

Ambiguous terms in a contract favour the one who didn't write it.

[tojothethief.livejournal.com]

I have since cleared up my TOS to avoid this in the future and the commission was altered at no cost to the buyer. I was rather presumptuous in thinking it was clearly stated. Thank you very much for your input!

[buttlord-mcgee.livejournal.com]

That guilt tripping is really gross on the commissioner's part. The terms were very clear, if he wasn't okay with no edits in the final piece, uh, nobody forced him to purchase the slot.

[fr0stbit3works.livejournal.com]

It was never made aware to me that these edits would be made.

[sacch.livejournal.com]

The beware was bad enough but then seeing the client and how they act on twitter @ing artists and doing all sorts of things just... yikes. Yikes all around. Beware well warranted.

MOD COMMENT

[kayla-la.livejournal.com]

Hey! We don't mind you sharing your side and your caps, but our normal rules do apply. You have real names shown in these caps as well as porn, so you'll need to go through and censor the real names and either censor the porn or mark the comment as NSFW.

I'm going to be screening these, but feel free to make another comment with the needed changes, that's fine.

I disagree with everything

[paul photon davidson (from livejournal.com)]

Tojo, you're a great artist, no disrespect. I'm sure you're a great person, but this is taking it too far.

Fr0st is a great guy who simply wanted a commission and wasn't completely satisfied. I have no idea what he said to you but making a journal about warning people about him isn't necessary.

I've gotten to know Fr0st very personally and he's not as rude and picky as you make him out to be.

And for some fair criticism, I've seen your art, I honestly think this could've looked a bit better. I would not pay 50$ for this. I've paid 60$ to some people and gotten better quality art than this and with more realistic detail abd backgrounds.

In the end please. Leave fr0st alone, he's just a guy that's having hard time and is getting a lot of hate now as is. Don't make him feel any worse.

Thanks

MOD COMMENT

[oceandezignz.livejournal.com]

You are more than welcome to disagree and attempt to defend your friend (although it seems they have already apologized for their actions), BUT your criticism of the art and the cost goes against our community rules:

4. No criticism of artistic quality or monetary value. This is not a critique community. A bad transaction is still a bad transaction, whether it involved $3 or $300, a stick figure or the Mona Lisa.

If you wish to continue to interact here please reference the rest of the comm rules before doing so: http://artists-beware.livejournal.com/profile