Copyright/Trademark Logos?

[totschrei.livejournal.com]

Update: I would considered this semi-resolved as I have contacted the COMPANY as well working to make my own logo to not represent their in any way. My question still stands, however, it their selling of this logo that is copyrighted/trademarked is legal.

I am at a bit of a loss here.
Someone made a logo of something that has a character copyrighted/trademarked to a highly known company.
Recently, when using said logo completely re-drawn by me and not knowing the creator of said logo, was approched saying I couldn't use that logo at all because I am using their artwork.

But I am not using their artwork I am using the design which they (to my understanding) cannot copyright/trademark because it has the copyrighted/trademarked character. How much of this can be enforced? How much claim can be made? What are the restrictions? They are making money off their logo to my knowledge without the concent of the company in turn with is violation and theft?

I am really confused on what steps to take.
From what I came to undestand since COMPANY owns intellectual property rights/copyright/trademark the person who made the logo cannot copyright/trademark the logo since it is already owned. Thus they cannot take any action against someone using this logo unless someone is actually using their artwork. But they are trying to tell people not to use the logo while themselves selling T-shirts, Folders, accessories of this logo which again has the copyrighted/trademarked character.

What can I do to imrpove this? I don't want to be called a theif because I used a logo. I just want to know what is the stand here?
For now I have modified the logo to less represent theirs to not cause conflict.

Comments

[tylociraptor.livejournal.com]

Typically, when designing a logo, the copyright ends up in the hands of the company it is designed for- this is part of the reason logo design is so expensive, because an artist is handing over their copyright. However, this may not be the case with this individual and company.

Is the logo that was created a peice of fanart? Say, a logo based off of pikachu from Pokemon that the artist is selling on merchandise? Or is it specifically a logo they were paid to create by the company, for use by the company?

If its the former, well... fanart is a weird area. Some companies are fine with it done on an individual (non corporate) basis, but I am not sure if the artist could actually enforce anything. If it is the latter, I'd contact the company directly and inquire, if they hold the copyright on the logo. If they do, the artist wouldn't have any grounds on which to act against you, but the company may not appreciate it.

There's a whole lot of stuff about transformative work and parody and such out there, and I hope someone with more knowledge on it will speak up, I'm not much of a fan-artist so I don't deal with that at all.

[totschrei.livejournal.com]

It was fanart and, as to my knowledge, was not made for the company at all.
The company, I wont say what, but is as big as Nintendo/Pokemon Company.
I have already sent an inquire to the company but I am not sure how long that will take.
Was hoping someone had a bit of tid-bit to give me in the meantime.

[gatekat.livejournal.com]

My take: this is a variant of the "you can't use my character, it's copyrighted" reaction. While socially there is some validity to the claim that you can't steal a character, legally there is not. Characters and designs can't be copyrighted, only spesific pieces of art.

Now the design could be trademarked, if it didn't already contain a trademarked character/element.

It's possible you are good enough that they think you really did use their art and put it in yours, which is illigal, rather than just using the design.

While I couldn't say for sure, I expect their claim has no legal foundation, but they sure can make a stick about it and use social pressure on you.

[chronidu.livejournal.com]

I think the big question as to the 'right or wrong' of it is this. Was the piece you did based on the persons logo in any way? Or resembling the custom created artwork they did for it?

Like I really feel like I would need to see it to really know.

Also, the logo they made, was the logo itself completely original artwork? Or did they put a trademarked character on a pre-existing trademarked logo?

Aka did they do a custom logo or is this like a pikachu in the middle of a starbucks logo for example?

In the case of the former, then yeah your work should def not look like theirs, but you can still feasibly make a totally different logo also using pikachu with no harm/fowl and be fine.

In the case of the latter, they can't really do anything about you then taking the starbucks logo and putting like mario on it or something.

The ethics and legalities come down to which you may be essentially copying. If the situation is you copying their custom artwork even if it has a trademarked character, then yes there is a problem. However if their problem is you just made a different version of an existing logo with and existing trademarked character, then they can't really do anything.

[totschrei.livejournal.com]

The logo I drew was almost identical to the it's but minor differences. Though probably not enough differences for someone to notice unless you really pay attention. That being said the Logo they made, was like this: Pikachu drawn in a simplified version with a simple almost tribal background made to look like a team logo from Pokémon go. Now that is just am example.

The logo itself is fan-made but represents what the company made already just of a different character owned by the company.

I have edited the logo a bit more to not represent their so much as I didn't want social backlash like white-knights, verbal threats, as I know how the furry community can get.

They are selling these logos as well. Now, where it gets weird: They say I cannot use the logo because it's their interlecual property. But they cannot legally own this because the character is already trademarked/copyrighted/interlecual property of this large company? It is just a strange situation since it is fanart logo.

[chronidu.livejournal.com]

So basically you both were copying the same trademarked logo if I am understanding correctly?

Aka the logo you did did not come from their work, but instead a pre-existing trademarked logo that already existed before their fan work?

[totschrei.livejournal.com]

Uhm.. Let's put this in better terms.

COMPANY comes out with logo.
PERSON comes out with logo with one of COMPANY'S characters. Fanmade logo becomes highly used as an "official" logo.
ME uses the logo with minor differences but still close enough to fan-made logo to get slightly upset. I fix it.
PERSON tells me i cannot use logo cause they have copyright over said logo. But logo has said COMPANY's character and thus cannot be copyrighted.
Again, ME fixes it even more to not represent that logo made by PERSON.
PERSON is selling logo T-shirts/Accessories but telling others they cant use logo. Tells ME that logo is their property.

Again, I have sent an email to the company asking about the situation.
As well will changed the logo to be my and my friends own design.

[chronidu.livejournal.com]

Okay so then its the character that's trademarked, but the artist DID make the logo themselves despite said trademarked character being in it?

Then yeah, you don't have any standing to use their logo even if you change it. The logo is their creation even if they used a trademarked character. They still own the rights to their work. You can use the same trademarked character, but you cannot take the logo they made and use that, even if you edit it a bit. That logo is their artwork they made, it is not free use and is protected under their rights as the artist who made it.

Even taking out the legal stand point, ethically you shouldn't be taking peoples work and using/changing/editing it even if its fan work.

Unless the company paid that artist and bought the rights to it, that Logo, as it is their work, is in fact their property. The trademarked character is the only thing that is not.

Please don't take/use/copy/change peoples work even if it is fan work or has trademarked characters. Even if they cannot legally trademark it, it still belongs to them and they still have rights over it as an artist.

[totschrei.livejournal.com]

I guess you didn't read the part where I said A: I didn't know the artist who made it as I saw the logo everywhere and thought it offical logo to use. Until I was contacted and immediately changed it.
B: I changed it not to represent their artwork in any way and am working to further make my own logo.

I don't like theft in fact in many times have I stated I do not like it.
And I looked up the laws and such where it states unless they trademark it which they cant it is free use until further trademark is made but they cannot trademark it because the character is already trademarked. Thank you for your time and I would considered this semi-resolved.

[chronidu.livejournal.com]

Aye sorry I think the wording was confusing me a bit, but as long as you turn it to something that isn't their logo you should be all in the clear

[totschrei.livejournal.com]

Thank you :)

[chronidu.livejournal.com]

No worries, sorry again for the misunderstanding

[totschrei.livejournal.com]

Not a problem and sorry for not making it clear. Just not wanting to release to much detail and trying to explain is hard.

[sresla.livejournal.com]

I'm a little confused by the wording of this question:

Recently, when using said logo completely re-drawn by me and not knowing the creator of said logo, was approched saying I couldn't use that logo at all because I am using their artwork.

The Pikachu in a Starbucks logo is a great example. The way you're phrasing it, it sounds like you saw their artwork and re-drew it. Is this the case? Or do you mean you combined the same elements without ever having seen the other "logo" previously?

If it's the latter, I'd say err on the side of courtesy and alter yours so it isn't as identical. As others have mentioned, fan art is a pretty gray area, with some companies being very protective of their IP, and others giving some leeway. As a general rule though, it's a very slippery slope when it comes to profiting off fan art. I know Disney, for example, will send out C&Ds (or at least I've heard rumors to that end). I know you can go to any number of conventions (anime, comic, etc) and see fan art being sold for profit. Most of my commissions are fan art, but then again, I'm not turning around and putting them on t-shirts either. If the companies want it stopped, they will stop it, no question. However, it can be seen as a form of free advertising - or it may be that the artist did work with that company at some point and so have permission to sell prints/phone cases/etc with their design. I think it's good that you did contact the company in question to ask.

As to what this person might do, the previous posts are also correct. In the end, they probably aren't able to do anything to you, because they likely don't have license to work with the character either. I doubt that a lot of the pop culture shirt artists mail Nintendo or Disney and ask permission. But it's small potatoes in the big spectrum - as long as it isn't blatantly representing the character in an OOC/negative manner (like... Pikachu smoking a blunt and drinking whiskey while having sex with a wh0r).

(sorry about the edit, hit return too early)

[totschrei.livejournal.com]

I example above comment of what I meant on the logo. As for that I did use the actual logo they made because it was fanart and I saw many like it floating around the Internet without knowing the original owner.
Edit: Just to clerify again I did personally re-draw this logo and did not use their artwork.

Again, I have made alterations since then to not represent theirs as much and are currently working with a friend to completely redraw our own version.

the problem I have is they are trying to claim that no one can use this logo but them while this is a fan-made logo. Also they claim it's their interlecual property while they cannot do that since the character (like pikachu) is copyrighted/trademarked/interlecual property of said company.

[sresla.livejournal.com]

As for that I did use the actual logo they made because it was fanart and I saw many like it floating around the Internet without knowing the original owner.

Thanks for clarifying. I think royalgryffe's comment below is spot on then. Even taking into account what the original artist is saying (claiming you can't use it because of some copyright they think they have), I'd rework it so it's more original. While neither of you have the rights to Pikachu (continuing with the same example I used previously, not saying that it is a Pikachu), why make something so derivative? Take the character and do something new with it - let your creative juices flow!

[totschrei.livejournal.com]

Me and my friend have decided to work together to make a new one.
That way no more issues can be made just in case.
Though the area of them selling the logo of that character and making a case against me just seemed... I dunno, strange. That they think because they designed it they can enforce no one to use it. While I understand wanting credit for it but trying to overall tell people not to use it all the while that image had become top primary fan-made logo that is more known and seen as "official" if that makes sense.

Edit: Spelling Error

[royalgryffe.livejournal.com]

Honestly, seeing what the problem is, I would just settle on using your own design of the character/team. It's not even an official faction, so has no true official logo.

Looking up the team it looks like there are multiple fan-made logos for it anyways! Create your own and let it stand out!

Should they be able to control the use of something fan-made they created even though it contains a character they don't have rights to? I mean sure, people sell stuff at cons all the time of characters from shows and comics they don't own and it's not okay to copy those images or designs either.

I would say it's definitely not their intellectual property though, since the character in it doesn't belong to them.

Question.

[dragontripmon.livejournal.com]

OP is this by any chance your mentioning PokemonGo by Niatic considering i've seen lots of artist lately doing commissions like that. I would just really be cautious of this since i know for examples neopets does'nt allow artists commissions of their trademark property.

RE: Question.

[totschrei.livejournal.com]

I am not releasing any information on which company it is or what logo it is as this is advice post.
I hope you understand.

Re: Question.

[dragontripmon.livejournal.com]

Well understood but it's still better to be cautious considering not all companies are ok with infringing property. Considering what's been happening lately with certain fiasco involving fanart.

Re: Question.

[totschrei.livejournal.com]

Thank you. I will be sure to use cation and honestly it is almost not worth it anymore to even draw fan-art in general.

[durskle.livejournal.com]

I looked into this, but as you want I will keep the subject matter anonymous.

First things first: just because you don't know the original artist/ source doesn't mean you can use their work, especially without credit.

Second, I don't think this is a matter of logo as much as a matter of art. You were using their art, redrawn to be nearly identical, without their permission. I can see why you would be contacted. If you take a drawing of a fox and add a cat tail it doesn't become yours. Even as it is edited now I would personally say the logo is still very similar to their's, with some parts matching up perfectly if you overlay them. I honestly feel this is a case of: no, that art is not yours to use, even if you redrew parts of it.

I feel the way you presented the case is also interested, noting that making money off their logo would be theft while you took almost directly the company's logo and some of their intellectual property but didn't mention anything about that. An extra pip of colour or two doesn't make a logo yours. That being said the company is lax, but I feel the pot is calling the kettle black here.

If their selling of it is illegal then yours would be as well, I would think.

I think you are going in the right way to make your own completely individual logo, as others have done as well.

That's my two cents, anyway.

[gatekat.livejournal.com]

You might want to read the post again.

She said very clearly and more than once that she drew the art she used. She did not use their art. She took a design that someone else made and drew art of it herself.

So no, it's not a matter of art. It's a matter of whether someone can have ownership of a logo that is legally impossible for them to actually trademark.

[durskle.livejournal.com]

Though if you look at it, the art was essentially traced from someone else's art. It was a sort of fan logo, but still someone else's art.

I understand that she said she drew the art, but if you take someone's art and draw it exactly line for line, colour for colour, with one line or two missing, I wouldn't think that counts as drawing your own image?

She then profited off of art that wasn't her's to begin with. That's why I see this as being the problem.

[totschrei.livejournal.com]

that is why I am asking if it is illegal to sell because I want to know for myself if I need to stop.
I seen many others selling things of the related matter and wanted to know just what to do with this.

now, I appreciate your two cents however I wanted to keep this anon for a reason and accusing me of tracing as I said I talked with the artist and they were satisfied with the changes to my knowledge. I would appreciate again to keep this anon on the matter. Thank you.