some more help, please...?

[dilario.livejournal.com]

a follow up to this entry --> http://community.livejournal.com/artists_beware/362396.html

Basically, the owner of a nightclub approached me, asking to use an old picture of mine to make into a sign and merchandise for his club (such as cards, entrance passes, and shirts). The picture is a fairly simple vector-ish image, here --> http://teraphim.deviantart.com/art/Omega-s-Halo-18753224?q=&qo=

He has "reminded" me numerous times that I would still retain rights to the image to do with it as I please, I am just "releasing it for his use".

Here is part of his latest e-mail to me:

"As for concerns, I don't really have any as I said the other day I feel that all rights should and would be retained by you and use of the image by you or anyone you choose is totally at your discretion.

More than anything, I appreciate an artist's talent and I think you are one. Honestly, I probably could have ripped it off the internet and used it and you might never have known but I wouldn't feel right doing that, after all she came from your creativity and ability not mine. Thought maybe you might allow me to use the image for $200.00? Let me know what you think. Hope you're having a great day!"

I honestly feel insulted, both by the low price and by him playing the bigger man just because he didn't outright steal the image. I have no idea how to go about this now, and I don't want to speak rashly out of anger. Absolutely any feedback on the situation would be great - should I just walk away from this deal altogether? Should I try and talk to him about raising the price? :(

edit: just wanted to mention that I will be watermarking my work soon, but it won't do anything for this particular case - I know he's already saved the image because he has used it for mock-ups.

Comments

[synviver.livejournal.com]

I would definitely suggest that you raise the cost if he's going to be selling merchandise with the image on it if you're not going to go with the royalties route. Hell, given his attitude of "I could have just stolen it off the internet!", I'd personally charge not only the flat usage fee of $200 that he's offering, but I'd say that I'd want x percent of any income that he made on anything that had that image attached to it (the percentage being dependent on exactly what was being sold and for how much).

On top of that, I would suggest that you make sure and get everything pertaining to this agreement in writing and, if you're really uneasy about it, give it to a lawyer to look over if you can.

That's just my take on it, though. :x

[trianine.livejournal.com]

Agreed with this in full. I would also like to add that unless you specifically told him that $200 is unacceptably low, it's a bit early to get offended about the price. He may not know how to price these things, and he may honestly be trying to appeal to you by saying he isn't stealing them behind your back and the reason he is dealing with you really is because he respects your integrity as an artist.

All that said, if you go through with Synviver's advice I would add that you ask for figures regarding memorabilia purchases and sales related to your logo. Possibly to insist that before even being printed, the # and type of uses of your logo is to be confirmed by you first. I don't know if that is unreasonable, but it is worth considering.

And at the end of the day, it is worth considering that you have an opportunity for +$200 here. If you don't get these offers often, don't expect to in the future, and/or you still retain the rights to the image, that puts you $200 ahead at no extra cost to you and a portfolio item for future consideration.

BTW that is a totally awesome design and you really should see about printing that in shirts or mock movie posters/whatever on your own.

[sigilgoat.livejournal.com]

Well hopefully, whatever you have on the internet is a low enough resolution that it would look absolutely shitty printed out at any size, or that if he printed fliers, you'd be able to snag one and hand it over to a lawyer.

I think that attitude would put me off someone FOREVER, unless they seriously apologized hardcore.

[sigilgoat.livejournal.com]

also that is a super rad image <3

[fiercereaper.livejournal.com]

That is not playing the bigger man, that's trying to bully you.

[freudian-lisp.livejournal.com]

Mind if I ask who did (the picture in) your icon? It is super rad.

[kriscynical.livejournal.com]

So let me get this straight... "I could have ripped this off and used it illegally, but I'm being so nice to you for not doing that! Here, take $200 because I'm so awesome and nice."

I'd dump this guy and put a watermark on the DA image pronto.

[animecat.livejournal.com]

This. And this is exactly the reason that I don't upload anything higher than a 72 dpi resolution and always have a watermark on all art uploaded to any online gallery. I learned my lesson the hard way. I really recommend this practice to protect your work, as it tends to discourage thieves.

[wyoon.livejournal.com]

maybe he should just take that $200 and commission someone to make an image like that with different hair and put shoes on her and his problem would be solved.

[thaily.livejournal.com]

Then he'd still have to pay that artist for the rights in addition to the commission fee. And if it resembles the OP's image too close it's a derivative product, so he'd still have to pay the OP.

[shukivengeance.livejournal.com]

I'm going to have to echo Kriscynical here and advise you to watermark that image asap. It's possible he may have saved it to his computer anyway but it's still worth doing. His "I could have stolen this but I didn't so take my lowball offer" attitude seems somewhat like a bullying tactic.

It's possible he didn't mean to be insulting and genuinely doesn't know how much the pic would be worth, so it's up to you to suggest a figure and terms you're more happy with. The terms he is offering are EXTREMELY vague too so get it all in writing, insist on a contract and perhaps consult a lawyer if you feel the need.

[bladespark.livejournal.com]

Yikes. When I said I thought "hundreds" was appropriate, I didn't mean just two! That is kind of insulting.

[thaily.livejournal.com]

He could have stolen it, and you could have sued him and entangled him in a lengthy and costly legal battle. The threat is not appreciated and he does not get asspats or a discount for doing the right thing. If he can't do business legitimately he should get out of it entirely.

Give him a price and stick with it.

[kriscynical.livejournal.com]

The bitch in me would want to respond "Yes, thank you for not ripping off the image. You saved me a lot of legal fees since I don't have to sue you for copyright infringement now. :D"

...but the professional in me holds my mouth shut. Damn her.

[delphinios.livejournal.com]

He's right though. He could have just stolen the image and let you drag him into court over it. If he's only intending on using it in a limited manner, then the risk is worth the reward. But he's being short-sighted in that if his business ever takes off, then he'd likely have to buy that image from you or risk being sued for a whole lot more.

However, I'd encourage you to treat this like any pragmatic businessperson. He is pretty much paying you to allow him to use the image for his business and promotions. In exchange, he'll pay you some money, and you still retain the right to use the image for your portfolio or any other use.

You have a whole lot of opportunity to get your work out and visible here, don't let this walk away by being greedy and holding out for more money.

Think of how much time you spent planning and creating the image, decide how much you feel that time and work is worth, and then offer him a quote based on that.

If this image took 4 hours to create from nothing, and he's paying you $200 for it, that works out to pretty much paying you $50/hr... very reasonable rates and terms, IMHO.. especially for a work already done and pretty much sold already.

[kriscynical.livejournal.com]

In exchange, he'll pay you some money, and you still retain the right to use the image for your portfolio or any other use.

Unless he completely bought her out of the image, she would have the right to place the image in her portfolio anyway. Many entities will still allow the artist to place the piece in their portfolio for self promotional use after a buyout anyway, just so long as the image is not re-sold.

You have a whole lot of opportunity to get your work out and visible here, don't let this walk away by being greedy and holding out for more money.

Unless he has her by-line and web address posted next to the image every single time he uses it, that isn't a good incentive. It does no good for an image to be "out and visible" if nobody knows who made it.

Wanting to be paid what a piece is worth is far from greed; it's making a living. Beyond the cost of making the original image, usage rights and/or royalties must be paid if the image is being used for advertising and merchandising which is what he seems to want to do with it.

[mattdawolf.livejournal.com]

get it in writing, sign, take his money. sue if he breaks it.

[snapcat.livejournal.com]

Its art. $200 is a very fair sum for commissioning what is in the end a logo. I'd take the money, use it for something fun and stop the stressin'. I think you are turning it into a bigger deal than it needs to be

[solalia.livejournal.com]

It's not just a logo though. It's actually a pretty nice little piece of art, and he wants to put it on t-shirts and sell the shirts. Would you let a t-shirt company use one of your images for a one-time fee of $200, knowing they're going to charge $20+ for each shirt? I certainly would not.

(frozen)

[sovy.livejournal.com]

If things fall through with this guy and you don't want to work with him or cut some deal then send him over to me. My email is sovy.kurosei@hotmail.com and I could do some work for him for $200.

(frozen)

[solalia.livejournal.com]

Wow... that might have been a little uh... poor taste?

[solalia.livejournal.com]

Let me start off by saying, you get a lot farther in most aspects of life by being gracious. That is some of the best advice I have ever received and I'm passing it on to you.

You can freak out and be a beast to this guy, and make him regret he ever contacted you, losing a potentially long-term client in the process and any of his friends who might own businesses as well.

Or you can be kind to him and negotiate instead of flipping out because the first price he offered you wasn't to your liking. How is he supposed to know? He isn't an artist. A little more patience is probably in order.

First of all, I wouldn't bother with royalties. Most people are not sure how they work and aren't very good at keeping track of them. I would e-mail him back with a price that you think is fair, but tell him you are willing to negotiate. Would you rather have $200 or $0?

You could also try negotiating separate pricing for each item he wants to produce. You could ask for royalties from the t-shirts (5-10% is usually standard, 15% is less common and considered generous) but only charge a flat fee for the use of the image as a sign and passes.

I know sometimes it is frustrating when a client doesn't read your mind on what you want, but you have to learn to be assertive and stand up for yourself so you get compensated fairly. If you feel like he's not willing to provide reasonable compensation, then don't work with the guy.

[spiffystuff.livejournal.com]

This comment, is perfect!

[findmealone.livejournal.com]

Personally, I'd take $200 for the logo (although see if you can bump it to $225 or more), then write a contract about where and when he can use it. Be VERY THOROUGH and use all the proper lingo - if you want someone to give it a once-over, email me at rebecca at rebeccaholder dot com and I will look. Also stress royalties if it will be on things for sale, like shirts - make sure that is also in the contract.
(Something like:
ILLUSTRATOR WILL RETAIN ALL RIGHTS TO SAID WORK.

The Illustrator of said Work will receive full credit for all illustrations in said Work. Illustrator keeps all rights to his/her Illustrations unless otherwise noted in this contract.

Earnings and Statements:

COMMISSIONER shall credit the Illustrator's account twenty-five percent (25%) of the profit for those works sold using the art created by the illustrator.

[ursulav.livejournal.com]

I'd take the $200 for the licensing of the sign/entrance passes/etc, but explain that merchandising is a whole 'nother kettle of fish. If he wants merchandising rights, the artist gets paid royalties--that's just t'way it works in the world. Ask for 10% of t-shirt sales--if the t-shirts take off, great, then both parties make money, but explain that you can't offer an unlimited merchandising option on an image without some kind of royalty being involved.

[spiffystuff.livejournal.com]

Nice to hear your take on it! It makes a lot of sense.

[spiffystuff.livejournal.com]

Huh, so he wants a limited license?

Personally I don't think $200 is an insulting offer, since you retain the rights, especially if you've never done these kinds of deals before. What, exactly, do you want out of this deal? What price do YOU want, and did you tell him? Would you want royalties? Please note, the usual royalty is something like 5% to my understanding.

Also, don't get pissed at this dude. If you're getting bad vibes, ok, maybe you should walk away, but if you want to do business try to keep things amicable without getting "insulted" by his offers. I think he's trying to be up front about this while letting you know what he wants, there's nothing wrong with that.

[spiffystuff.livejournal.com]

*looks at comments*

Gosh, some people sure are hostile.

[chicago-lollie.livejournal.com]

http://www.graphicartistsguild.org/handbook/

This handbook for Pricing & Ethical Guidelines was mentioned in your last entry's comments by kriscynical, though I didn't see it linked to directly. I feel it's worth restating.



http://www.copyright.gov/

And if you haven't already (if you're in the US), copyright your work as soon as possible. The service appears to be down until tomorrow evening, but all documentation should still be available to read up on in the meantime.

[lastres0rt.livejournal.com]

GET A CONTRACT. AND ROYALTIES. NOW.

... I'd bar him entirely for his attitude if I didn't think you couldn't get a ride out of him.

[silverback2001.livejournal.com]

I personally don't think that this guy is trying to be rude. Most people getting into art, and especially the average Joe, don't know how much work is worth. I've still been experimenting with prices for my work. Lately with the economy especially people have been thinking art is worth "less" because so many artists have been willing to work for less.

Don't get angry at this person. Decide what price you think your work is worth, and talk to him politely. Be willing to negotiate. See if he'd be willing to have some personal cards with your info on them on a counter next to the merchandise. Turn it into a chance for more exposure. You're in charge of the terms of any contract this guy is willing to sign.

He probably wasn't trying to low ball you or threaten you. He was probably saying what he thought was something that would show you he was an honest person. Who hasn't said something stupid out of good intentions?

I know this is A_B and we see a lot of dishonest people listed on here, but people need to remember that most people try to be good and honest people. It's just that the minority is often loudest.

[neolucky.livejournal.com]

I can't ignore my gut reaction - any client that says "I coulda taken your image off the internet and used it anyways - BUT I DIDN'T!" makes me ill. I don't care how little social graces he has, or if he's trying to be upfront because he felt guilty about it (he could have already done it and felt bad.), those few words just really don't sit well with me. I can't recall any instance where a client mentioned something like that, where they weren't being snide honestly.

But I do agree, negotiate with him in a professional manner. If he's serious, he'll sign a contract with you. Take the high road here and offer him a price you feel worthy. If he's not serious and was just throwing a lowball price at you, then say "no deal" and watermark/copyright your logo design.

A lot of clients are like this one, but that doesn't mean you should bow down and play nice just to get whatever they're offering. Fight for what it's worth.

[megumi-kitten.livejournal.com]

The whole "I could steal your work, but I didn't!!" expecting a cookie reminds me of the time someone contacted me on DA to brg they'd printed my work out and tried to pass it off as thier own...*facepalm*

[misteroffense.livejournal.com]

First, watermark the shit out of the image to make sure he doesn't steal it (and hope he hasn't saved the unwatermarked version already even though it's probably too low of a resolution to print as a large image)...

...then negotiate the price with him in a polite and professional manner to show him you mean business and you're not just some rookie artist. With the way he's talking to you he seems to think you are, which is not cool. First step, though, I would suggest you make sure he can't steal the image in case he gets fed up.

[ocelotish]

I'm going to agree with pretty much everyone else in the thread that you should still be professional, even if that phrasing seemed pretty threatening. What I'm going to add is that you should include both how much it would be for the full rights (banner, T-shirts, business cards, etc.) and what you could give him for the $200 (something like the one sign for 5 years or something like that). You don't know what his budget is so be sure to tell him how much what he wants will cost and how much he can get for what he can afford.

[mandyseley.livejournal.com]

Educate and negotiate.

It doesn't sound like this guy is trying to be insulting or scam you, just that he doesn't really know much about buying art. He might be feeling a little flustered because he doesn't understand what goes into a "real" commercial art contract, so he got a little defensive?

I'll be honest, the chance of royalties is likely pretty slim. People don't like sharing profits with people outside the company. It would be nice, you can certainly ask, but I wouldn't get hopes TOO high on that, or try to push it too hard.

Instead, explain calmly that using the image for lots of different merchandise is a big deal. Ask him about time limits, whether or not he'll be allowed to use this image FOREVER or if it'll just be for a certain amount of time, a certain number of shirts, etc. A lot of art contracts release publishing rights for the image for a set time frame, after which it has to be renegotiated.

Give him an example price with restrictions. Example: "To use my image on whatever you want for a full calendar year, I was hoping for somewhere in the range of $500." Giving him a concrete number to ponder will help give him more realistic expectations for your negotiations, as opposed to trying to "guess" what art is worth when you've never bought it for commercial use before.

[mandyseley.livejournal.com]

Another thing to consider is negotiating compensation other than cash. Do you like this night club? If so, you might be able to bridge the gap between what he wants to pay and what you want to get with other things. Night club membership, guest passes, free shirts and merchandise, hell maybe even your first drink free every night for a few months or something (alcohol's expensive, after all)

Perhaps you can ask that a copy of the logo be framed in the night club itself with one of your business cards on the side of it, or even a business card holder mounted next to it with your information there, so you can get some personal advertising out of it.

Just things to think about. Getting cash out of business people can be tricky, but it's not the only compensation worth considering.

[grandioze.livejournal.com]

"Honestly, I probably could have ripped it off the internet and used it and you might never have known"

I know other people have already said it, but that is such an inappropriate statement. That would be like if I went into a store and told the cashier, manager, and other employees "Well, I could have just shoved all of this stuff into my shirt and you would have never known about it. This store makes enough money anyway." :|

$200 is fine if there's no merchandising. You should charge more if there's merchandising.

[crissx.livejournal.com]

My question is - say the OP declines his offer, then later sees her image being put to use anyway. (Aka, he DID just take it off the internet) Can she take legal action, and, if she did, would she win? Or is it somehow okay for him to do this because she never legally copywrote the image?

[kriscynical.livejournal.com]

As soon as the image left her hand it was copyrighted to her. You don't have to formally register a piece of artwork for a copyright.

So the answer would be yes, she could most definitely take legal action and she would most definitely win. It would be pretty cut and dry, especially with the message he just sent her.