Beware: FA Artist Kathy-Lu

[foxbyte.livejournal.com]

A few weeks ago Kathy-Lu [ FA Site: http://www.furaffinity.net/user/kathy-lu/ ] was commissioned by Vaerinn and myself for four sketches. Each of these were ten dollars each and we had no complaints with timeliness. What will be mentioned is sharing rights; ahead of time we stipulated to Kathy-Lu that we would be expecting to be able to post these sketches anywhere as long as the following conditions were met.

1. The image was not to be edited in any significant way.
2. The signature was not to be obscured or removed.
3. The artist was to be given credit for the creation of the image.

She agreed to this in the LiveStream and we went on our merry way. Later, when I especially liked one sketch she did, I asked for the rights to colour and post it. She also gave these, stating that as long as the signature and original art was credited to her she did not mind. The real drama, and some screenshots, after the cut. Assuming I typed this correctly; I have not used LiveJournal in four years.



Over the past few weeks we got into a personal disagreement and she decided it prudent to block me, posting attack journals calling me a lazy art thief, and then attempt [both personally and through friends/anonymous accounts] to have all instances of the art that I paid for and had permissions given to ahead of time taken down. When an altercation came up in her journal, comments that pointed out that I was given permission to repost, that I paid for the art, that she had no right to harass us, the journals were quickly deleted and then reposted to begin the cycle all over.

She was banned from e621 for making harassing comments as well as spamming and exploiting the Flag For Deletion feature.

At the time of this writing she has apologized in private, but the most recent journal involving this still proclaims me as a 'lazy art thief' and states that I have no rights on the work I paid for. After the apology note was received [With no opportunity to explain my side personally] either her or one of her fans/friends register a new account on e621 to continue to harass us. I would not be surprised if she were going to attempt to convince her fans that I should have my rights to the images I commissioned revoked retro-actively.

Here are some links to the art in question. Please note that some images contain nudity and you have been warned. Also, please do not see the e621.net address and begin screaming that I am stealing art. The images in question are simply being mirrored here, and were uploaded lawfully and with permission. I have never uploaded any other images to the site, despite having been accused by several of Kathy-lu's followers of doing just that.

http://e621.net/post/show/89945
http://e621.net/post/show/89932
http://e621.net/post/show/89929
http://e621.net/post/show/89928

A screenshot of the most recent journal, showing her opinion of commissioner rights posted August 19th at around 4pm.

http://i.imgur.com/2KDDj.png

A screenshot of her private apology, just before new accounts appeared on e621 to continue spamming Flag For Deletion on art that we were given permission to upload.

http://i.imgur.com/rA0xB.png

I do not have a screenshot of proof of permission that was given to me in live chat on LiveStream, but I do have a screenshot of the permission I was given to post a coloured version of one of these images shown here.

http://i.imgur.com/DWPEO.png
http://i.imgur.com/ZY1IU.png

Finally a mirror of her original attack journal, which was deleted when people began to come to my defense. Hosted gratefully by Arcturus and saved by the other rights holder in question, Vaerinn.

http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/1650902/



TL;DR I would encourage commissioners to avoid this artist as they can and will mix business with personal issues. If anyone else has had this kind of experience with her please comment below.

Comments

[vtforpedro.livejournal.com]

yikes, i can't even see the logic of what she did in the first place by posting an attack journal, especially if you gave full credit

i've never had trouble with getting permission - i don't know how an artist would forget they gave permission, anyway, but i guess a lot of things could have been on her mind?

has she had problems with other commissioners besides you and your friend? if she hasn't, i'm not so sure if it's really a warning more than a complaint of business gone bad, though -shrug- she was unprofessional, but if she's never had problems before...

[foxbyte.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure if she's had problems before; she's flaunted that she's a member of this community before so I was nervous about posting this here. If others had problems there's a good chance they were blocked, then all journals mentioning them was deleted from her sites.

I don't know if she forgot she gave permission or not. Several times in the journal it is mentioned that I had permission ahead of time but she continued arguing that I did not have it. Only when screenshots were involved she deleted the journal.

[vtforpedro.livejournal.com]

that's really too bad :/ i hope she doesn't give too many other people grief and i hope you get another apology from her - it sounds like she was just being spiteful, then... she better check her attitude if she wants to keep business up!

[shukivengeance.livejournal.com]

It's strange that she apologises in private but doesn't remove the stuff still slandering you in public. Hm.

I have no personal beef with Kathy-Lu, and enjoyed her art, at one point considered commissioning her but her attitude grated on me so much I had to unwatch her a while ago.

[foxbyte.livejournal.com]

I've really got no personal beef with her either. I wasn't going to even post here until the 'apology' turned up but her efforts to take down the art redoubled, and the public slander journal wasn't edited. I don't want it deleted. I want her to balance the endless public slander with a public apology. Or unblock me so I can link her here.

[taasla.livejournal.com]

It's a shame that she is mixing personal issues with business transactions. Yes, as an artist she does retain rights, but she did give you permission. It's unprofessional of her to go back on this based on a personal argument. I really do like her work, but as Shuki said above, her attitude has put me off of buying from her.

Thank you for the post.

[foxbyte.livejournal.com]

Thanks for being so understanding. I was worried about coming here at first, as the artist in question has flaunted several times to be a popular poster here. I'm not sure I have the time to post to everyone's comments and questions but I will try. ^^;

[taasla.livejournal.com]

"Popular" poster here or not does not sway people's opinions, thankfully. As long as you present facts as they are with solid evidence, people will understand. Even without a screen shot from Livestream, the apology itself shows that she knew she had given permission to you prior. If she really wanted to "man up", then she would remove the journal where you are mentioned off-handedly and apologize publicly.

(I actually have no idea who she is, and I've been a member here for a few years now.)

[doomhobbit.livejournal.com]

It's a shame, since she does seem so sweet at least when I've talked to her. She has given you permission , the proof is there that she did and it seems silly to apologize to you and block you. I had to go and read all the evidence though. I only know of her through a friend who is friends with her and she's been nothing but delightful to me when I've spoken to her, granted it's only been at least twice and no more than that. Suckage.

[vaerinn.livejournal.com]

I'm the other person who was involved in all this drama, foxbyte's boyfriend. This all came from out of the blue for me. She and I had been getting along great, and I actually thought we were friends. Then there was just a polite disagreement between me and one of her fans and then I was blocked. And after that, all of this happened.

[foxbyte.livejournal.com]

She was pretty sweet when we first met her, too. Or else we wouldn't have trusted her enough to buy art from her. :/ But hey, she needed money for groceries and she seemed nice enough.

[neolucky.livejournal.com]

In the end you bought the image, you attained posting-permission rights and...really she's being quite shady about the entire thing, what with apologizing privately then attacking you publicly.

If it's a paid commission, I don't see why she's flipping out about where you are posting it, granted I'm no fan of E621 myself but she's overreacting. She retains the rights to the art, of course, but I would think as they're your designs...you retain the right to distribute to some degree? I'm fuzzy about this.

But, word of warning. This whole thing seems overboard drama, and Arcturus should not have reposted the entire thing for you, as that would just add more fuel to the fire, which reflects poorly on you. It's not really his business, despite being on that site. It's a transaction between you and Kathy-lu. You paid, you got the art, you got permission. I fail to see why this is a huge deal, beyond her petty immature reactions.

At least she delivered the commission, and you're not out any money.

[nicolyrezk.livejournal.com]

Actually, considering this all came about because of actions taking place ON my site, namely her fans coming onto e621, registering fake accounts, abusing the deletion procedures.. it's a small part my business as well.

[armaina.livejournal.com]

Well technically, the artist still maintains rights to the image even if it was a commission so they'd still be legally able to submit DMCA notices to have the art removed. But regardless, I agree that it was blown out of proportion by both parties.

[foxbyte.livejournal.com]

It does seem like drama. Well, originally it was. A long back-and-forth thing while she made accusations against me in her journals and then deleted them when people pointed out the faults in her logic. And then recreated them. I'm not really protesting the drama. It's the part where she tries to lie about a commissioner's permissions, make it hard for them to pay for commissions in the future [who would take money from an art thief?], and generally attack a paying customer through the product they received.

I asked Arcturus to re-post the journal so that I would be able to show everyone an example of what happens to make Kathy-lu delete everything. The other option would be a gigantic series of screenshots. He's also been nothing but polite to me through this whole ordeal, and to me in the past, so I don't see how me posting Kathy-Lu's stuff in screenshots is any different from him helping me to host a larger one.

[uozlulu.livejournal.com]

What gets you into shady territory here is you don't have written proof that she said "Yes you can color and repost the image(s) in question."

She's acting childishly so yeah that's a big red flag for anyone who might be considering commissioning her, but you really can't prove that even if you give credit you have a right to post these images.

Just because you post a link back to a person and absolve all owning of a picture doesn't mean you get to post it anywhere or keep it up anywhere if challenged unless you have written proof that you are allowed to do so.

[foxbyte.livejournal.com]

The images in question were never edited or coloured by myself as I have not uploaded the coloured one to e621. In the end, I only reposted the one I coloured to FurAffinity linking back to the artist as well as giving her credit.

I asked permission before editing the image [I had to in order to receive the original layered file] and then permission a third time in order to post [which she gave].

I even included screenshots to the notes in this special case in the original post but I will link to them here for convenience sake.

http://i.imgur.com/DWPEO.png
http://i.imgur.com/ZY1IU.png

As for permission for the four images on e621, I received private notification that she did give permission here
http://i.imgur.com/rA0xB.png
but her journal continues to attack me, and her or her fans continued to register dummy accounts in order to spam take-down requests.

[thaily.livejournal.com]

If you don't have proof that she gave you permission, there's not much you can do.
To be fair, it's not like you paid for the rights. If she doesn't want them on that site, but she doesn't mind if you post them elsewhere, why not just be graceful about it and stop purposefully antagonizing her.
You're making yourself look just as bad.

[foxbyte.livejournal.com]

Please open the image in the OP described as her apology. She states there that I had asked permission, but then continued to rally people to delete the art anyway, as well as registering dummy accounts.

Re: A reason or two?

[kayla-la.livejournal.com]

Why doesn't she edit the offending journal to show that she did indeed give permission and apologize? That was pretty much what sparked this, as far as I can tell. She publicly threw a fit and then privately apologized so that people continue to think poorly of foxbyte. I find it strange that she doesn't do this simple little thing. An apology would go a long way.

A reason or two-- more thoughtfully put.

[phantasmicyouth.livejournal.com]

She's nearly lost her father thanks to his caretakers, and our financial situation is a mess-- has been, for a few months, thanks to a few bad decisions. She's also under a lot of peer pressure thanks to the art community, both in getting business done, and the sudden scrutiny she's been put under, due to the way one bad deal can make waves. She had trouble getting a website or two to take down art that wasn't credited to her, which made it seem like it was wasting her efforts, from a certain point of view. These stacked into her list of things to worry about, and due to the number of commissions she let herself onto, she started losing track of things-- including who was given rights to post art. She's never managed this sort of thing before, nor was she in a state to start due to circumstances, but now it's happened-- and she made mistakes. Rather than taking a step back, she only pressured herself further by putting the bills on her own shoulders, which I feel responsible for; I turn over all my money, and our roommate turns over a sum, but we still need her help to make ends meet. During the summer when she had no job (school sends the cafeteria ladies on their merry way, and they didn't bother sending her the unemployment check she was approved for) this was especially stressful. She's run herself beyond her capacity, and I don't imagine many people in her state can find the wherewithal to make an ironclad business venture. This was a hobby-- doing commissions for extra money. It wasn't meant to be a regular thing, but our circumstances ran her down that path, and now she's over-obligated herself. I'm forcing her to relax. We had an argument last night when we went to bed, her going on about how she can't stop work right now, that the projects were overdue, that commissions were late, that the bills won't pay themselves. I'm not going to go into this further... she's overinflated her responsibilities, and it's affected her ability to work with the public-- That's true. What she isn't doing, is aiming to slander people. We can see what that brings, and I know my wife. I said it to Fug before, and I'm saying it now... she has no desire to stick her nose up at people, or to hurt them. If she falls into a defensive posture, it's tooth and nail; something a husband can also confirm... a trait a LOT of us haven't gotten under wraps. If this whole thing was discussed maturely, maybe it would have been ironed out already. If someone has an issue with her, the way not to bring it up is trolling random submissions and journals with 'what a cunt' she is, or spreading the word to people who don't actually have the nuances of the situation. You go to the person, and discuss things like a bloody adult. Since so much grief's been passed back and forth, I think it's a little late for that. I can see what she wants to do about that journal by bringing it to her attention, but I don't see either party being absolved of this, thanks to how far it's bloated out of proportion and understanding. This is a train wreck.

While I'm at it... NO, I am not pointing a finger solely in Fug's direction on this one. There's a whole ~handful~ of people who produced the examples I posted above, and I don't have names to offer; I don't see a point in using mental or digital resources just to maintain some kind of grudge match... enough of my mental faculties go to work on trying to help my wife, and paying the bills without losing my own mind. Even if I had the names to offer, I wouldn't bother... it's what starts messes like this, after all.

Re: A reason or two-- more thoughtfully put.

[kayla-la.livejournal.com]

Also, I just noticed you deleted your comment up there. Please read the rules in the userinfo, deleting comments, including yours, is against the rules.

My side of the story.

[kathy-lu.livejournal.com]

I'm not here to bash foxbyte, or his right to make an article on me. I'll admit that I could have acted more civil, however, I am going to tell my side of this story and defend myself, starting from the begining.

Foxbyte and Vaerinn had come to me for sketch commissions, which I gladly did.. Four clean sketch commissions for ten dollars each. The transaction went well, there was no problem along those lines. The trouble started one day, while I was streaming. I was working on a commission that had to be done that day, if memory serves me, and there were plenty of people in the stream watching me, and chatting amongst themselves as they usually do. At one point, I had gotten so engrossed with what I was working on, I had stopped paying attention to the stream chat. This is when things went wrong. Foxbyte had assumed that my husband, a friend of mine, and others were discussing ways to beat femme boys, and I was promptly let know the next day. [I've taken screenshots of the notes. From top to bottom, they're in order. The image can be found here: http://i53.tinypic.com/2zz7oki.jpg Sorry for the bad quality... If I need to, I'll find some other way to pull it up to be seen. ] I had thought that was the end of it, until I posted an edited image on FA of a picture I did for my husband.. It was shortly before this that I had found e621, and had asked arcturus politely, after marking images for deletion twice I might add, to no avail, to remove them. After a week of no response, I'd decided any adult work I put up will either be censor, or a commission. This one image threw everything out of line, and even though most got the joke and enjoyed the image either way, Foxbyte and his friends soon started coming to the comments and spamming them, one of which was foxbyte calling me 'tacky' for streaming the image, but not posting the uncensored. I had then after deleted the image, but he wanted to make sure I'd seen that apparently, because it was followed with a note [that can be seen here http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v729/kathy-lu/FA%20Screenshots/FA%20Screenshots/?action=view¤t=foxbytesnotes_tacky.jpg along with my response.] The deletion of the image didn't go unnoticed however, since one of them had taken a screenshot of the image and all of the comments, saying that I was attacking them. [the image is here http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=11j93io&s=7 I saved it, figuring I'd need it for some reason.... Good thing I did, because now the journal has been deleted.] After this, I had blocked Freehaven, and Arcturus from my page, which was followed by this journal from Freehaven, mentioning my name in italics. http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/1630424/

After this, there were multiple journals by freehaven and arcturus slandering my name and attacking me, with mention of foxbyte's name, defending him. I have no problem with someone who thinks their friend was wronged, that's not the point.

Re: My side of the story.

[kathy-lu.livejournal.com]

[Added, because the post was too long. ]]



And it comes now, to the journal I had put up, asking why people felt the need not to ask artists to post their artwork. [Thanks to Arcturus, that can be found here: file:///C:/Users/Kii/AppData/Local/Temp/Rar$EX00.789/I%20want%20to%20know%20something.%20--%20Kathy-Lu%27s%20Journal%20--%20Fur%20Affinity%20%5Bdot%5D%20net.htm ] However, what they refused to do while screencaping, was capture the comments that followed. They ranged from "I don't know" from one side of the spectrum, to "Because it would take too much effort to contact the artist, and would waste time." THIS is where the 'Laziness' comment in the next journal came from. Neither journal had anything to do with foxbyte, nor vaerinn. The edit came after I found out that I'd been banned from e621 for spamming the deletion tool [not for harrassment], and that's when I edited it, and that's the ONLY time I've mentioned them, not even by name. These journals were accompanied by Vaerinn's journals [which can be found here http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/1645238/ and http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/1648118/ .] They had done pretty much the same thing I had done, only this time, they were actually targeting someone. Me. I sighed, and decided to let it all blow over, but it didn't, as you see. A friend of mine linked me to this. After reading it over, I felt it best to apologize, since a private apology wasn't enough. It didn't bother me that I should have made a public one, so I did. And I meant, and still mean it. That can be found here. http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/1665205/

I sent the link to foxbyte and vaerinn, which was promptly followed by a link to this page [which I had already seen days earlier], and a 'leave me alone'. I didn't expect an apology from either of them for the trouble and stress they caused me, or their friends who attacked me, and sent their trolls to attack me. [I don't know if Foxbyte and Vaerinn did, and I'm not accusing them of that either, but I DO know that Freehaven and Arcturus had done so, and they are friends of the two by what I can see.]

I never meant for any trouble, I never meant for things to get out of hand. However, I never sent 'fans' or friends to attack either of them. [as a matter of fact, they were attacking my friends, and harrassing them. One of which they posted a WIP of a commission she got that she didn't want public, and they knew it, but they took the image and posted it to e621 to cause trouble and rub it in her nose, because they had a disagreement about posting rights. Also, they sent a friend of mine notes about a journal I did, which he ignored since he didn't want to get involved. I have proof of both, but for their identity sake, I'll keep those off of this page unless they're asked for.] I've told my friends and fans who were upset about the whole ordeal to stay away, and don't get involved, because I knew A: they would be causing more harm than help, and B: they themselves would be trolled, just like the two friends above. I admit I could have acted more like an adult, and less like a kid in some regards, but I don't think I deserved as much trouble as they gave me.

I don't expect anyone to believe my side of the story, even with the amount of evidence I've provided, and I especially don't expect this article to go down. As a matter of fact, I don't want it to.. It's just a reminder to myself not to try to befriend customers..

This has also made me look at my commissioning policy a bit closer.. Instead of just having people come to me and ask for work, I'm going to have to make a form for them, along with a contract, just to make sure this sort of thing never happens again. As one of the trolls that attacked me said "You're the reason people don't buy commissions anymore", sadly, it seems this sort of result is the reason that artists refuse to take commissions anymore.


[Just a note.. I wouldn't have posted this had I not had more trolls come at me _after reading this page_.. I just felt it was time to stand up for myself, and stop being walked all over.. I'm sorry if I've wasted your time. As I said, they have the right to post this, and this is not a comment asking for it to be taken down, either..]