More commissioner suggestions..?

[sharpecostumes.livejournal.com]

I'm grateful for those who responded to my last post and now I am faced with a new cause to post once more... I have a commissioner (who will remain unnamed. They're a nice person but there's some trouble) They came to me about March of 2010 with a simple head commission. They provided plenty of ref pictures and sent me the initial $125 right up front. We proceeded, communication was good. College started and things slowed down a lot. Was still working on theirs and a few others when they had an idea and wanted to change the mask a little. Simple adjustment so I went with it. Things proceeded but no other payments came. I was made aware that they had no job and were running on credit cards for everything. It concerned me a little but I continued work. About May/June area they wanted to add a gas mask to the head. That set me back about 2 weeks to a month or so. They ordered a few supplies such as tubing, connectors and LED's (think rave gas mask) and I worked on the sculpt for the mask.  After about 2 weeks of sculpting I was finally able to gain approval on the sculpt and proceeded to cast. They wanted me to ship the gas mask to them so they could mark where they wanted the LED's to be so I could dremel out holes. They would them proceed to ship the mask back to me for me to do so. Then they would have me ship it back, they install the LED's and other items, and then ship it back to me once more for finishing touches (bear in mind this commissioner is in the UK where I am in the Northwest USA) so shipping all of that back and forth would have been a good bite to the wallet.

Not long after I'm made aware that they are close to bankruptcy and I put the commission on hold so they can get back on their feet. I liked the person and didn't want to see them put themselves in a hole in order to pay me. Yes, I know that's not my choice to make but I figured if they are unable to pay the full price at the time I would hold until they could. During that time I had sent them a pair of video goggles worth about $150.

I am now faced with wondering what I should do. I know this person will not be able to pay for this commission in full for a very long time if ever. Another commissioner made mention that, since I had given them the goggles that were worth equal to what they had paid me, at that time, the transaction was good and I don't need to worry about it any more. I know this person originally came to me to commission me for a mask but what do you do with a person who you know cannot pay? I've looked at both sides and find myself in the middle going in circles.. Help?

Comments

[banrai.livejournal.com]

The really unfortunate thing is that more often than not, even people that are really badly in debt buy frivolous things they don't really need.

Arrange a reasonable payment plan with the guy, in my opinion. Even like $20-$30 a month is probably less than they're spending on other crap they don't need.

[skulldog.livejournal.com]

I agree with this. If you really like the person, and enjoy the commission, there's no harm in working out a small payment plan to finish it.

$20 a month is really not impossible even on a tight budget, lay off a bit of food or entertainment, and still be able to pay rent, and over a short period the fursuit work is paid off.

[sharpecostumes.livejournal.com]

They owe about $500 still. I like the person and the commission is complete. Paying $20 per month would be quite the wait but I know it'd be worth it to them. I'd still be worried since they don't really receive anything at all (they live at home with their folks), no job, and less than $100 away from being bankrupt... perhaps I'm overthinking this..?

[skulldog.livejournal.com]

Okay, so they live with mom and dad, so they room and food is covered, chances are, they should be able to find a job in a few months, and while $20 seems low, in all good hope they pick themselves up after a few months and turn that into a larger monthly payment.

I think you're right to be hesitant, but coming up with a plausible payment plan isn't too hard on both parties is a good idea, and might turn back into something larger over time.

[sharpecostumes.livejournal.com]

I think the reason why I'm hesitant is because they haven't been able to acquire a job for over a year and they've given up, turning to their music to provide money.

A payment plan had been made originally which was all but dismissed by them..

[gizagiza.livejournal.com]

I find it weird that can't find any kind of a job at all. There`s always the service industry work while waiting to find a job in their field. It sucks, I know, but it`s better than not having any income at all.

Just sounds a little fishy to me.

[skulldog.livejournal.com]

Yeah, knowing he's blown off a payment plan just makes the 'can't get a job' part even more fishy to me too. Sounds like someone might have had second thoughts on paying but still wants the head..

[shukivengeance.livejournal.com]

Sounds to me more like 'not willing' to find a job rather than being unable to get one.

[shukivengeance.livejournal.com]

I'm wondering why they're dismissing the idea of a payment plan? Do they think that if you get strung along for long enough and fed sob stories indefinitely that you'll give in and do it all for free?

[sharpecostumes.livejournal.com]

They have depression and a few other troubles that make it difficult for them to get a job. It's not so much dismissing the idea but they've stopped doing the payment plan we had set up. I haven't received money since March of 2010. I know they wanted to send another $125 recently but doing so would put them maxed out on all credit cards and bankrupt...

[sharpecostumes.livejournal.com]

*facepalms* now it just sounds like I'm making excuses for them... anyone wanna head slap me? Bring me back to reality? For some reason I'll do that. Say "oh well this is going on for them and this and this" and sooner or later I'll convince myself to go against my better judgement... This is fail.

[shukivengeance.livejournal.com]

I'm from the UK, and let me tell you bankruptcy does not happen automatically when you get into X amount of debt. You have to file for it, and there's a process to go through. So you're being lied to already on that one.

This person lives with their parents, therefore they have no expenses. Their family is supporting them, and since they don't work they should be on benefits (especially if they have depression) and therefore having SOME kind of income a week. It's not much, but without bills to pay it should certainly be enough for them to pay you bit by bit.

I feel really bad for you as this is an awful situation, and since the $125 was a non refundable deposit AND they have your goggles which is worth more than that, I'd say take this as a lesson learned to be stricter and less trusting when it comes to business, and call the whole thing off.

[fatkraken.livejournal.com]

it's a little confusing since there's so much going on

How much have they paid, total?

What work have you done?

What have you sent them?

Correct me if I'm wrong...

[crisis-the-hat.livejournal.com]

From the looks of it:

- So far the commissionee's only paid the assumed downpayment of $125
- For the gas mask stuff, they bought some of the material themselves.

- The sculpt and initial casting was done for the gas mask and I'm assuming the head itself.

- Sharpe's sent them a $150 pair of video glasses.

[sharpecostumes.livejournal.com]

I have made a panther hybrid with LED eyes (the head is finished)I made a gas mask cast, completely custom, only able to use that particular cast for that individual mask, none other masks and I sent them a pair of the MyVu video goggles worth $150. They've only paid $125. I know they want to send me more, but that would mean putting themselves into bankruptcy and unable to pay any more.

[shukivengeance.livejournal.com]

Their financial troubles are not your problem and you've been more than generous with them so far, which is admirable but not always the most sensible way to run your business. Honestly I hope they are trustworthy as the things you've done, like the work and sending them things worth more than what they've paid you, could very easily end up with you being scammed.

Work out some sort of payment plan. Accept installments from them, and only work on the piece as they pay for each amount of work required.

[sharpecostumes.livejournal.com]

The part I'm concerned about is they themselves have even told me they won't be able to pay for all of it :(

[shukivengeance.livejournal.com]

Have you considered cutting your losses with this commission and getting out?

[sharpecostumes.livejournal.com]

I have. Like another commissioner had stated, I have covered a clean transaction for an item that matches the value they have sent me. Thing is I know they will put up a fight and I don't want misunderstanding working it's way onto here. I only want to have an honest good commission and I don't want to cause trouble. Perhaps I'm too trusting or something I don't know.. That's why I came here...

[spiffystuff.livejournal.com]

IMHO, either they need to start paying on a plan or you get to call the commission quits. Otherwise they're just taking advantage of you, if they're having you work on something custom and super expensive while knowing they probably can't pay for it.

[gizagiza.livejournal.com]

I completely agree.

[shukivengeance.livejournal.com]

Thirding this.

[cissa.livejournal.com]

Yes, this.

Especially since it sounds like the OP is already in the hole on this.

No more work until commissioner has caught up with what you've done AND made payments for additional work; if that isn't likely to happen, just stop working on it.

If you don't feel like formally closing it, OK- but do no more work and send them no more stuff until they have paid what they owe to date AND a decent amount toward the rest.

[shukivengeance.livejournal.com]

Indeed, you have sent them an item that is worth more than what they paid you.

Considering they want you to continue work, including sending the item back and forth which adds even more onto your expenses after stating they can't afford to pay for it, it seems to me like they are blatantly taking advantage of the fact that you feel 'stuck' in this unsatisfactory transaction.

The cleanest way to end this imo would be to get your goggles back, sell the head and associated pieces to someone else, then refund them the $125.

I get the feeling that a client like this will probably try to fight you cancelling the commission no matter what way you do it, but they have clearly stated they can't pay for it so continuing the commission is not really an option. You're not a charity.

[sharpecostumes.livejournal.com]

I would inquire getting the goggles back if I hadn't watched them dismantle them in front of me on skype (they were wanting to rig them to a mask and took them apart. Needless to say they aren't the brightest person I've met, especially when it comes to taking things apart. -.-)

The head is extremely custom. It's a hyena/panther hybrid, white out LED eyes, enlarged fangs, mowhawk, green and gray fur, notch in one ear. It's the character they use on their CD cases so I don't know if there's any legality thing or not. It's not a copyrighted character, but I loose money hangin onto it.

The initial payment they did, the $125, is my non-refundable materials cost. Heaven only knows I haven't used that and more covering the "extra's"

[lilenth.livejournal.com]

Character's have to be trademarked not copyrighted. Even supposing he had paid the fees (£200 or nearly $400 which I doubt if he's really so broke) to trademark it in the UK, that protection does not extend outside the UK so copyright/trademarkwise, you're free and clear.

[shukivengeance.livejournal.com]

Like Lilenth said, there are no legal obstacles to you reselling it(even though your client will probably try to say otherwise) so it's worth at least considering doing so, imo. While premade pieces often go for less.. you'd be getting something for the work, which obviously isn't happening here. Would it be possible to modify it to make it more generic or fit a second buyers' requrements?

[sharpecostumes.livejournal.com]

I've been thinking of ways to alter it. I can change the ears, remove the mowhawk, and alter the coloration easily enough. I probably could. How to break it to them though?

[shukivengeance.livejournal.com]

As professionally as possible, but be firm. They have not honoured their side of the business transaction after all. You'll probably get some more lies, sob stories etc because they've worked on you so far.

If you feel the need to give them a final chance then offer the ultimatum that they pay you X amount of money by X date and keep up with said payments on a regular basis, or the agreement is voided and you shall resell the head to recoup your losses.

[cissa.livejournal.com]

Tell them that you cannot continue to leave this hanging. Therefor, they must either pay you the rest of what they owe by X date, set up a payment plan and begin payments, or you will have to consider the commission canceled. Add that if they choose the payment plan and miss payments, that too will mean that they have canceled the commission.

Phrase it as much as you can that THEY have canceled the agreement by not providing the payment they promised in a timely fashion.

[sovy.livejournal.com]

Have a candid talk with the commissioner and come up with a payment schedule or to discuss canceling the commission and selling the head to someone else.

[anjel-kitty.livejournal.com]

I know that you seem to like this person, but I advise not getting so benevolent with your customers if you want to run a business. It suck that things happened the way they did, but if this person is in bankruptcy it probably is on account from a long history of consumer debt and poor spending habits (I would suspect since Great Britain does have subsidized health care, which is often what drives a lot of young Americans to bankruptcy). Plus their inability to get a job doesn't lend well to you ever seeing your money. Personally were I in your position I'd consider recouping your loses, changing the design. A fursuit raver gas mask is rather novel and I'm sure you could sell that. Just apologize to the person but stay distant because this person's finical problems are not your problem, and unless this is just a hobby, you have no obligation to keep around a well worked product on account of consideration for a down-and-out former customer.

[lilenth.livejournal.com]

If they're in the UK then even if they can't find a job they should still have an income unless they're too young to enter into a contract. Since they apparently have credit cards, they must be over 18, which means they aren't too young to enter into a contract.

Someone without a job should be entitled to Jobseekers/Income support in the UK, or a Bursary/loans that don't have to be repaid until they have a stable income if they're in higher education. Agencies are always hiring over here for the short term job market and they will take anyone for the most part barring serious physical health issues.

Bankruptcy is something one has to declare, you don't get it automatically and I'm not sure but you have to be in a certain amount of debt to declare it, by which point they should be eligible for all sorts of help programs specially designed to prevent bankruptcy since going bankrupt is not good for you.

In short you're being fed a line, the only way this person has no income is if he or she hasn't bothered to apply for benefits. I'd cut your losses and perhaps finish and sell the head, because I think you're being taken for a ride here. You're really too nice for your own good, if this guy is really going bankrupt then it's not your responsibility to hold off on getting paid for work you've done until he's no longer about to go bankrupt, I honestly doubt this guy will pay you since he's already got more out of you than he gave you in terms of the glasses.

If you want to run a business you've got to learn not to be taken in by hard luck stories, some of them are genuine but some are not. Somebody elses problems aren't your responsibility, their problems are their responsibility, your only responsibility is to yourself and anyone/anything that's dependant on you. It's hard but really if you carry on this way, well you could end up going bankrupt while waiting for people to pay you.

[elphane-uk.livejournal.com]

The Jobseekers/Income Support thing depends on a few things actually. For examply I only work 6 hours a week, and would be entitled to a top up via either of those, but because I was off sick a while I haven't paid enough National Insurance contributions to claim based on that. I can't claim the Income Based version of either as my partner works over 24 hours a week. No taking his income or our circumstances into account, more than 24 hours a week and that it, no questions asked. Now we are managing despite this, but I know a few people in similar situations who aren't so lucky.

Saying that, if this person can't afford to live on what they are getting, they shouldn't be buying expensive stuff like this. Food > fur suits!

[shukivengeance.livejournal.com]

Yeah it is a bit more complicated than that, it depends on your work history and who you live with etc. But they don't work at all and are totally supported by their parents and should be able to get at least $40 a week in benefits, especially if they are 'depressed'. I know people who got DLA for that.

[elphane-uk.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I got benefits when I lived with my parents when I was younger. Just not housing benefit.

[lilenth.livejournal.com]

Unfortunately DLA is russian roulette, get idiots for decisionmakers and you could be be a quadraplegic and you'd still get turned down. They estimate that if everyone who was entitled to it not only got it but if everyone also got the correct rate, the bill for DLA would -double-.

[shukivengeance.livejournal.com]

Absolutely. I know people who needed it and didnt got it, and tons of others who get it and shouldn't be entitled at all. It's messed up. I was just saying that it's highly improbable that this guy ISNT on some sort of benefits.

[lilenth.livejournal.com]

I believe you can apply based on hardship as well, when they messed me around during the year I was in and out of hospital, I did still get some help (not much but it was just enough) I managed to still get some help for hardship reasons.

It might be worth asking your local jobcenter if you're getting all you're eligible for since often people don't get everything they're eligible for.

[shukivengeance.livejournal.com]

This!