Problem with an Art Trade

[miryhis.livejournal.com]

Hello, I this is my first post here, and it's not a beware... it's more for advice. I hope the situation does not escalate to anything bad, but I recently completed an art trade with someone last night. There is a vast time difference, so I found she commented on it in the afternoon. The person really liked the piece, replying with: 

Arrh! she is so cute! Thank u so much! and i looove the pose! <33 But she is a little fat? x.x it dosen't matter she is F*cking cute! <3 Thank u so much!

I replied with: I'm glad you like her!

I wondered that as well, but normal wolves are around that build

http://www.jon-atkinson.com/Large%20Images/La_Grey_Wolf2.jpg

I'll still fix the picture for you if you wish c:

Now I don't mind crit on my work, I actually encourage it, but it's the last comment that concerned me. The other artist replied to my comment with: 

Yeah they are so cute xD
But no I'll do it myself but if u want 2 then your welcome! it's only the back

What concerns me is someone going back and editing a picture I drew. I know she has the right to go an mess around with the picture after I gave it to her, but I would like advice on telling her that I preferred if she doesn't edit the picture with out sounding rude.


EDIT: After a short conversation with them, I realized that I got the build of their character wrong. She wanted an anorexic-style wolf, and because I thought all her art was stylized I drew a wolf with a normal build (all her art has the character drawn really skinny). I'm now very weary of doing trades with this person, because I asked them to change something on her half as well (she spelled the character's name wrong). I asked her a day ago, and after asking her again today, she told me she JUST deleted the piece. I find this very suspicious, and a sign she just didn't want to do something so simple ( I have no idea how to feel about this). This situation is making me weary of doing any more art trades, but I'm sure this will happen every once in a while. I figure I'm worrying over nothing. The deleting piece thing was just a miscommunication. In the end, I'm just going to edit the piece, and then close art trades for awhile and work on personal art for awhile. 

Comments

[blackberrypie.livejournal.com]

Just let her know it makes you uncomfortable when others edit your work and that you'd be happy to make a quick fix for her. I had a commissioner that liked to edit my sketches to show me how they wanted me to change things vs. just telling me how. Finally made me just tell them no, please don't do that. They shouldn't mind as long as you already said you would be happy to fix it. :)

[miryhis.livejournal.com]

Thank you for your advice!

I did tell her I was happy to edit it for her. I don't even know how the editing would come out if she doesn't have the file with the layers... but then again, I don't know that much about Photoshop.

[holydust.livejournal.com]

Actually, some of us are happy for our clients to do this. I prefer it, because it saves me hours of "adjust - send - wait - get told how to fix it again - repeat". It's called "redlining", and even done without permission, if it's by a client for corrections on their piece, a lot of us prefer that method to constant trial and error.

I wouldn't consider it a hard and fast rule, because I wouldn't want someone editing a picture I did for them and then posting it, the way the OP's trade partner planned/plans to do. For me, the two are totally different.

[blackberrypie.livejournal.com]

I never said everyone was like that. But anyways, I was just stating a similar experience and how I handled it. Not the same thing overall, but at the very bottom of it, its something altering your work in a way... Be it a sketch or a final piece.

[holydust.livejournal.com]

I apologize, but your comment seemed to me to imply that you felt you were among the majority there. :) I just wanted to point out that it isn't the case for me, so that the OP can see the issue isn't always black and white. It is the context by which the edits take place that influences how people tend to feel about having their work edited.

[blackberrypie.livejournal.com]

Ah, I see. Don't know how you got that. But okay. x3

But yes, everyone is different. And every situation is different.

[lilenth.livejournal.com]

She doesn't have the right to mess with the picture simply because it's given to her. The copyright and the right to alter it belongs to you. Simply tell her that she does not have the right to alter your work, and that you will be happy to alter it yourself.

[miryhis.livejournal.com]

Thank you for your input!

I was under the impression that the artist held rights, as in not having the picture sold. I thought once the picture exchanged hands the owner could scribble over it or burn it if they wanted to and the artist could do anything about it.

[lilenth.livejournal.com]

Once a physical copy exchanges hands, yeah, they can burn it if they want, but they can't alter the image, repost, sell prints or anything that violates your copyright.

[miryhis.livejournal.com]

That's what I got confused! I knew about not re-posting and selling prints, but I thought the person could treat the digital copy in the same manner as the physical copy.

Thanks for clearing that up!

[taelifoe.livejournal.com]

It kind of bothers me when the other person in a trade has to tell you how to do your half. Kind of voids the point in my opinion, but there are certainly people who like every little detail to be spot-on. I agree with what both lilenth and blackberry said - I would politely tell the person you're trading with that you're not comfortable with someone else altering your work, and do a fix for them to keep them happy.

I'd also keep this in mind if you are considering any trades with them in the future. Not saying you shouldn't trade with them any more, that's not at all what I mean. I would just remember that they are a little picky about details, so it's possible this kind of thing could rear up again.

[miryhis.livejournal.com]

My thoughts exactly, I thought it was a bit harsh when she brought up editing it her self. My first thought was "Is the drawing that bad?" I told them a second time that I'd edit it stating a reason why I felt the way I did.

I've done a lot of trades, and this is the first time this has happened. I'm not upset about it, just a bit taken back. Though I will be iffy about continuing trades with this person.

[shukivengeance.livejournal.com]

Actually, you own the copyright to the work, even if it's her character she doesn't have the legal right to edit your work without permission.

Having someone else alter your work makes you feel uncomfortable, so mention that to her. A lot of artists feel this way when it comes to editing so hopefully she can understand it.

[miryhis.livejournal.com]

Thanks for clearing that up for me... I thought the opposite.

I offered to edit it a second time, and she has yet to respond. Honestly, I don't mind editing a trade (as long as I'm the one fixing it). I did several art trades with another person, and she sends WIPs to me to show she's working on it and and in return I do the same for her. She pointed out points I got wrong with her character and I gladly fixed them for her. Thankfully this situation didn't come up with her.

[thaily.livejournal.com]

"I know she has the right to go an mess around with the picture after I gave it to her"

Except she doesn't.
Just tell her "Sorry, I'm not comfortable with other people editing my drawings, but I can make her a bit skinnier if you'd like? It's no problem."

[miryhis.livejournal.com]

Good to know!

I sent her another reply stating the situation, but she hasn't replied yet.

[megumi-kitten.livejournal.com]

Echoing what the others have said...really she has no reason to edit it if you're willing to change it.

I'd make sure you're wary about any future tradees with this person, though.

[miryhis.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

And, yes, even though I hate to be wary about this kind of thing. Trades usually aren't this much of a problem for me.

[wolfofwind.livejournal.com]

Personally, I think if it was artwork made for you or paid by you of YOUR character that belongs to NO ONE ELSE, you should be allowed to alter colors. Line art though? NO. Never. I tell my commissioners they may alter the coat colors if they want (I have done this to make icons) as they (much like me) would like to enjoy the artwork for years to come, even if it needs a little color adjustment. However, really not ok to alter lineart. I realize this could be a gray area that could cause trouble but I just feel that that person shares rights to the artwork with the commissioner. After all.. it's your art, but not your ideas- and I don't feel that it's fair when others commission me that they shouldn't have any rights to the artwork. It is their creation, I think.

[taasla.livejournal.com]

What you think is fair or not is kind of moot. By law you are not allowed to edit anything that is done for you unless rights have been signed over to you. It doesn't matter if it's your character on that piece of paper or not.

Now if you'll allow that as a courtesy to your commissioners with something you do for them, that's definitely your right to do so as an artist. Just, you know, don't expect it to be kosher with someone who does work for you.

For a better explanation of all of this, you can poke at the post here about Adiago editing a commission done for her.

Edit: Um, oops. I just realized my post might sound aggressive. :x That's definitely not my intention. Sorry about that.

[wolfofwind.livejournal.com]

Well, for instance- my icon here? I have edited it several times, but I requested the .psd from the artist, and I told them I had ZERO intentions of changing the lineart, and I haven't. :) I only changed the colors, and she was ok with this. I think for the most part though, it shouldn't be a GIANT deal if it was their character. I mean.. even if I didn't want the person to edit my work at all, ethically speaking it just doesn't seem fair to get mad at them for editing color. But like I said, gray area.. lineart edits aren't ok to me. I think a lot of times here it's more about what the artist is ok with, since I don't hear about these things going through the legal system too much. But then, I might just not be hearing from the right places :o

[shukivengeance.livejournal.com]

Coming to mutual private agreements is all well and good, but not every artist thinks the same way and they are fully entitled to not want their work edited as that right is protected by law.

[wolfofwind.livejournal.com]

Oh, no I know. I agree with what everyone has said- perhaps I should be more clear on this. I recognize most laws set in place in that case, but the vast majority don't really take it seriously I guess.

Are character creations protected at all?

[taasla.livejournal.com]

IRRC they have to be trademarked.

[shukivengeance.livejournal.com]

Not unless they are trademarked, and to obtain a trademark they have to be used commercially (like as a brand identity), and have to be unique enough to be distinguishable in their own right.

[lilenth.livejournal.com]

You're slightly off there, it depends on the country but I presume you were using US as your example? You're right that they have to be unique, but they also have to be registered and then used for interstate commerce, not just for commerce to be fully protected.

[holydust.livejournal.com]

The only thing that matters is if you've asked permission and been granted it by the artist. But by default, it goes against the artist's copyright to modify their work without permission.

I have a rule in my own TOS that states you may color lineart I do for you, or take it to someone else and have them color it, but you are not allowed to make modifications to a finished piece except to crop it for the purpose of making an avatar out of it. Cutting the signature out of an image I've done counts as modification just as altering the hair colors counts. But those are my own personal rules. Without my ToS stating this implicitly, these modifications would go against standard copyright law. I encourage my clients to come to me if they want an alteration.

[miryhis.livejournal.com]

Hm, well, I'm fully aware that the character isn't mine... but the person intended to go in and fix a "mistake" (I say that because that's how wolves are built, but I'm happy to sacrifice the realistic build I drew for the person's happiness). Editing line art, unless permission is given, makes me uneasy. I wouldn't even ask an artist if I could mess with the line art, I'd just ask them to do it themselves. Thus I do agree with you on some points.

Thanks for you input!

[lilenth.livejournal.com]

Characters can't be copyrighted except as part of a whole, under copyright, the design wouldn't be protected, but with say a character in a book, the description, their personality and a bunch of other details would be copyrighted as a -whole-, individual parts would not be protected, two books can have a character in each that have say one thing in common with each other without violating the copyright. Most character designs are protected by trademark and most people do not register their characters much less fulfill the criteria for that.

You can't own an idea, at the end of the day. You can only own the specific expression of the idea.

You might not have an issue with extending editing rights to those who commission you but legally they don't get those rights simply for their idea.

[thaily.livejournal.com]

http://tutorials.epilogue.net/marketing/work-for-hire

With all contracts other than Work for Hire, any rights that are not specified in the contract fall to the creator. Unless the contract specifically states otherwise, the artist is the “author,” and is recognized as the creator of the work. The person who hired you cannot take automatic credit for your work.

[taasla.livejournal.com]

I'll just echo what everyone else has said. You have the rights to the image. Just tell her you are not comfortable with her doing so, and that you'd be more than happy to do it for her.

[miryhis.livejournal.com]

Thank you!

I replied again with my feelings on the situation, and she hasn't replied yet.

[holydust.livejournal.com]

If she continues being obtuse about it (she's young, no? I get that impression from her), feel free to tell her your images are licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivs 3.0 Unported License.

http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/3.0/

The rules are pretty cut and dry. Share with attribution, no modifying or deriving, no re-selling.

[miryhis.livejournal.com]

Thank you for that information! I'll bring that up if the situation comes to it.

I read you other comments on this post, and after a rather short conversation, I realized I got her character's build wrong. She wanted an anorexic style wolf, and I drew a regular wolf. She never clarified what she wanted me to do. And now she doesn't want to fix a mistake she made on her half... this entire thing might make me weary about accepting any more art trades. Though if I open commissions, I wouldn't mind letting the commissioner redline the sketch themselves... just not the finished product. Someone drawing over the completed piece makes me uneasy.

[holydust.livejournal.com]

It happens! And you offered to make adjustments, like any good artist (even if the reason was her own failure to mention it). You're a good sport for offering.

That said, she is one of many young patrons/artists who doesn't seem to understand the concept of how copyright law actually works. I suggest you explain the CC license as mentioned above and make it clear that this isn't a matter of preference or poor taste, but actual law.

Should she go ahead and do it anyway, I would suspect that would be a good reason to keep A_B updated -- it's obviously not worth going to court over, but at some point she needs to understand that what she plans to do isn't just going against your wishes, it's actually illegal. (Sure, it's -jaywalking- illegal, but illegal nonetheless.)

[miryhis.livejournal.com]

Thank you, I tend to go out of my way to make sure the final piece is what the person wants.

Yes, I will, and again, thank you for the link!

Hopefully it won't come to that, but I will post if it happens!

[conigliomannaro.livejournal.com]

To be completely fair, she sounded more like she was offering to take something off your back than else. Some people feel bad about asking other people to edit or alter works that have been done for them, (I would know about it, I feel that way for actual commissions) and she probably was just trying to mitigate what she feared you'd be annoyed about by offering to fix what she wants herself; she even said 'do it yourself if you wanna', so I think it was just an excess of thoughtfulness.

[miryhis.livejournal.com]

Thanks for you input!

Unfortunately, both of us ran into another wrinkle. She got my character's name wrong on her half, and when she asked about editing the lineart on my half, I thought I'd bring it up (it's hard to get in contact with her). I told her about it, and she replied with "Dammit XD"... and continued to ask me about editing my half. When I asked her a second time, it's been a day now, she told me she just deleted it... I have no idea how to feel about the situation now. But I'll probably end up fixing it for her once my other work is done.

[holydust.livejournal.com]

This is why I honestly don't accept art trades anymore. I had one with someone that I actually did admire, and it became the cause of a massive amount of tension between us, because I took too long with my half due to life issues. Things became so awkward that we really never talked again after it was all said and done.

And that's someone I already knew and admired! This girl just sounds very inexperienced and perhaps a little flaky. I'm sorry you had to deal with the stress, but perhaps you could just take a few cheap commissions and then pay someone you admire to do a piece for you in the future. I know it robs you of the experience of social bonding that is supposed to go along with art trades, but so many of us end up so burnt by them that it can be hard not to get a little jaded.

[miryhis.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry that happened to you. I'm closing my art trades for a while after this, as well. it turns out it was a miscommunication between us, and she can still fix what i wanted... but this entire thing just makes me want to shut down trades for a while.

Yep, that's exactly what it was! And I'm tempted to take you advice and just pay someone to draw for me... the problem is that I don't have a lot of character refs up because rarely have time to color them due to art trades. The irony! Once again, thanks for your input!

[grandioze.livejournal.com]

I don't know if you've seen this, but she posted her redline of your picture to her gallery... and it's available as a print. Hopefully it's a mistake on her part, but otherwise...

[miryhis.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I told her to redline the picture of what she wants me to change. I'm a stickler when it comes to basic anatomy, but I'll try and find a happy medium with her.

I'm a bit thrown off my the print thing, as well though...

[wildehund.livejournal.com]

It was probably a mistake. I mean, who offers prints of a screenshot of a red line of someone else's work? Seems kinda silly.

Of course, trying to make a character look skinnier by taking a chunk out of their spine also seems silly to me...So who knows.

[miryhis.livejournal.com]

True, true. I noted her about it and gave her the edited trade picture. Hopefully it's resolved.

Yep... My inner Bio Major went " D: ".

[holydust.livejournal.com]

The fact that she both did the correction (as though she just wanted to do it herself, rather than set you up with guides for a fix) and then posted it at all (she obviously intended to post it in SOME capacity, even though I'm sure she didn't intend to make it available as a print) means she's still clearly ignorant of how all this stuff works.

I imagine you're probably -quite- weary of this whole mess by now, but if you haven't brought up the license thing, I would. She'll continue to pull these shenanigans with other artists until someone sets her straight.

I'm sure it's possible she isn't deliberately breaking the rules -- she probably has no idea that it's wrong. But I smell more trouble for other folks. Yes, we're talking about mere annoyances, but it's this kind of behavior that blossoms into things like deliberate photo-tracing and art theft later down the line.

I know, I should have a walker and be shaking my fist going "get off my lawn!" but I sometimes feel it's the hands-off approach we tend to take towards people like your trade partner that allows ignorance of art etiquette to become such a problem.

/whippersnappers!

[miryhis.livejournal.com]

Thanks to you, I was able to inform her. I sent her a note with the edited picture and stating what she did wrong. And, yep, I'm shutting down trades for a few weeks once i finish up the two I have now.

Hopefully, this is the last time she'll try to do something like this. I really don't want it to escalate to worse, because she seems like a nice girl, just misinformed of the law.

And, not at all! Once again, thanks for your help. You have a point, no one wants this to escalate into art theft or something worse. Like I said before, she's a nice girl, she just needs to be informed about art etiquette.