Cicatrizesp/Rabid

[vibris-sae.livejournal.com]

I was told last time that it was time to make an official beware post, but the artist in question contacted me in the comments, apologized, and said the art would be done at the end of June.  I think it's time, though, since it's been nine months of excuses and being ignored, and I really don't want anyone else taken in for more money than I spent. :T

I commissioned Rabid Sept. 15, 2010 for three digital busts to be finished by Halloween at $15.  After Halloween passed with no sign of them I poked her, and was told since I wasn't first in the queue she didn't get to mine.  I said fine, just finish them whenever.  I waited until Jan. 17 of '11 to ask her again.  She was nice about it, saying I didn't deserve to wait so long, she'd get them done.  By this time the person I'd commissioned this for were no longer together, so I made a change and waited until mid-February, when I decided I'd ask what was up.  She claimed she just forgot to do them, so I asked for a refund.  I made sure to be extremely polite throughout this whole ordeal.  She said she would as soon as she opened commissions again - which she did shortly afterward.  After I threatened a Paypal dispute (I had no idea at this point of the time limit :P) she begged me not to, since she was using her grandma's PP.

This back and forth went on for awhile until she stopped responding altogether.  When I posted here to see if anyone had heard from her (and several had) she responded with more apologies and a promise to do the art - not to refund me as I'd asked and as she'd promised.  Also in the comments section she admitted having traced over a photo for at least one submission.  I have plenty of screencaps once again, if anyone needs proof.

Maybe I was bothering her too much over $15 but it's still stealing. I've been contacted by at least one other person who was wondering if she'd done the art I'd commissioned, which I thought was kind of bad form - but it's relevant that other people are being screwed over too.  At this point I don't expect to see either a refund or the art, and I'm giving up trying to pursue it.  It seems like she'd rather placate people or ignore them rather than fulfill her obligations. :/

Edited: Caps:

Inital deadline: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/paris_in_flames/Capture5.png

Offered refund: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/paris_in_flames/Capture4.png

Art offered after refund never shows up: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/paris_in_flames/Capture3.png

Art promised in June: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/paris_in_flames/Capture2.png

Proof of tracing: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/paris_in_flames/Capture-2.png

Comments

[weirdmisty.livejournal.com]

Maybe I was bothering her too much over $15 but it's still stealing.

Two responses to this:

1. The number of times you contacted her vs. the amount time this stretched over is not at all unreasonable.

2. How much money the commission was worth is irrelevant. As you said, it's still stealing, and this behavior is inexcusable whether for $5 or $500.

[megumi-kitten.livejournal.com]

I agree with this.

Also, the fact she is still saying she'll do the art even after she promised you the REFUND back shows me she's not keeping track of much. :/

[vibris-sae.livejournal.com]

True.

[vibris-sae.livejournal.com]

That's true. If the commission were a complex or detailed one I could understand, but they're definitely not.

[latilombax.livejournal.com]

a little off-topic, but you forgot to put a / in the closing , 'cause the LJ cut is kinda broken

on-topic: I'm very sorry to hear you've got screwed over :(

[vibris-sae.livejournal.com]

Thanks for pointing this out :P I tried to fix it a few times and it didn't work, so I just took the cut out altogether.

[rabid-wolf.livejournal.com]

I DID say the art would be done in June, but at that time you told me you didn't want it anymore and you just wanted a refund, which I told you I could in fact do. I actually JUST got a part-time job and haven't been paid for the 6 hours I've worked, but as soon as I do, I will put $15 of it in PayPal and send it to you.

[ogawaburukku.livejournal.com]

Bad form, it should have been done back in 2010, or a refund should have been issued the first time it was asked for.

Here is some advice; do NOT take money out from paypal, or spend it, until you finish an art commission. That way, if someone wants their money back because you couldn't get around to doing art for them (and it happens, since real life is full of surprises), you can promptly return payment.

If you can't do that, you shouldn't be doing commissions.

[rabid-wolf.livejournal.com]

I realize that, and I realize it makes me look awful, but the reason I did commissions in the first place was because I needed antibiotics that were $30 and I had no income.

[neolucky.livejournal.com]

That's not a valid excuse to take someone's hard earned cash, and then not deliver a product, then on top of that to -ignore- them. You really should take this as a lesson learned, and promptly refund the client.

Commissions are NOT a valid source of "quick cash", and this should be taken a lot more seriously. Gotta suck it up.

[dreamerdragoon.livejournal.com]

Best way to combat this is to never spend commission money until you've actually completed the commission, unless you can afford potential refunds out of your own pocket as it were. You never know when a customer will back out, or if something will happen that will force you to drop the commission like a hot potato.

[ogawaburukku.livejournal.com]

"I realize that, but rather than earn money I'd rather trick people out of their money"... is how that sounds.

If you can't refund them, then do what they asked for and maybe do an additional commission for free. When I've been a little later than I promised, I've done things like additional sketches or quickies for free. Once I even entirely redid a picture because the buyer wasn't satisfied.

[neolucky.livejournal.com]

I think you may want to add an apology in there somewhere, considering the time it's taken you. Getting defensive just isn't the best way to resolve this.

[ogawaburukku.livejournal.com]

No kidding!

[rabid-wolf.livejournal.com]

I'm guessing you didn't read the first sentence? I apologized about three times already.

[neolucky.livejournal.com]

Might want to drop your attitude, there. I wasn't talking about your prior empty apologies, I'm talking about the rather unwarranted snotty comment I replied to.

Sorry doesn't cut it, sometimes.

You're not making yourself look any better, just sayin'.

[marus-puppy.livejournal.com]

Apologized, but didn't deliver on the work or the refund? I'm afraid that doesn't do much for your case. It just makes your apology/apologies look insincere.

[vibris-sae.livejournal.com]

I was just pointing out that you kept offering the art even after I'd asked for a refund and you'd agreed.

Plus your point would only be valid if you HAD finished the art in June. As an artist, if this kind of situation came up, I definitely would have done both the art and given a refund. I think a lot of artists would.

[vibris-sae.livejournal.com]

I would really appreciate a deadline on this refund, so that I may update the community and mark this as resolved.

[neolucky.livejournal.com]

I agree with the others, however I noticed that you left a shout on her page saying:

"Hey.. I'm really sorry, I've had to go to artists_beware since you seem to be ignoring my notes about my refund. I hope we can get this resolved so I can take it down."

Just want to let you know you cannot take this down via the rules here. It can be marked as resolved, yes, but it shouldn't be removed and will remain on record. I do hope it gets resolved very soon!

[vibris-sae.livejournal.com]

I do know that now, I made sure to read the rules before I posted! :)

Plus, uh, I think having a record is going to be a good thing.

[neolucky.livejournal.com]

No doubt XD I realized that your comment was posted a month ago, sorry about that.

[thaily.livejournal.com]

I'd go ahead and include any evidence you might have, especially of the accusation of tracing, which is quite serious.

[vibris-sae.livejournal.com]

Went ahead and edited with some caps. If you need more just ask c:

[latilombax.livejournal.com]

two of the screencaps were kinda small and hard to read

[spiffystuff.livejournal.com]

Fwiw, I don't see a huge problem with tracing as long as it's the artist's photo too. May look ugly, yes, but if thats how they work it should be apparent from their gal

[weirdmisty.livejournal.com]

I agree. There's no reason to even mention the tracing in this post. Not only is it not relevant to the question at hand, but there's no legal or ethical concern about using your own photography for a commission.

[vibris-sae.livejournal.com]

I would personally appreciate a beware if the artist I was about to commission was tracing over photos, which is why I put it in. If she had said "this is traced" I wouldn't really have had a problem with it but I think it's still misleading and (I think) false advertising.

Maybe it wasn't relevant to the issue at hand, though. Just imho another reason I would avoid this artist.

[ocelotish]

I strongly disagree. Believe it or not, but tracing is a legit technique when not used as a crutch and is fantastic in a deadline crunch. However, it takes a good artist to "trace well." What people usually refer to as a "traced look" is the product of what Walt Stanchfield calls lazy lines. What this means is that you may draw something that fits, but you miss the feeling of what it actually is, or what parts are important.

However, I'm having trouble finding her commission information. If she uses traced examples in her examples and delivers traced final pieces, it's exactly what was paid for.

I guess my question is, if you get the product and it's of the same quality and appearance as what you wanted, what's wrong with tracing (so long as it's legal)?

[vibris-sae.livejournal.com]

I think that's fair. My two problems with it in this case are that not much else in the gallery appears to be traced, and that it seems she doesn't inform the commissioner that their product will be traced. That's fine for some people, but I guarantee not for everyone! Especially when the tracing is done poorly.

As an artist, I just wouldn't want to commission someone who I knew traces. I guess it's just a matter of preference, whether it's legal or not. c:

[ocelotish]

Ah, now I saw a fair number of things that looked traced, and all were commissions so it's more of a case where she has two styles, one traced, one more exaggerated.

I think part of the problem is that there's no good way to say "I use tracing photos as a tool." The instant you mention using photos as reference, let alone tracing, so many fandom people will be on your back. I think it's often a case of unreasonable expectations, or at least steaming from that (fandom does have some crazy belief that you should draw everything from your head). Tracing can be used very badly, but it can also be the best way to get something to look right, particularly when it can be a case of getting something tiny, intricate, and delicate to look right, or something with a lot of perspective (assuming the person in question isn't a whiz at everything).

I'd rather an artist use every tool available to them to get me the best product, or the same product faster and cheaper. When used responsibly, I don't see how it's so much different than using photo reference. Again, if you're not good at drawing, they'll still look wrong, but if you're good enough and using them well, no one will notice it.

What you still haven't said though, is why is it wrong? What is the fundamental aspect of tracing that would make you unwilling to buy from someone who traces legally, responsibly, and well?

[vibris-sae.livejournal.com]

If this was a case of responsibly and well, I wouldn't have mentioned it at all. :P I don't think it's morally wrong to trace, but I do think it's sneaky to trace over an entire photo and then pass it off as something you drew from your own head. I think tracing is a viable tool for practice and personal art, and even commissions as long as it's not borne out of laziness, but I do think people should be accountable for it.

I do think there are unrealistic expectations on artists from non-artists who don't realize that beautiful art just doesn't fall out of our infinitely creative asses, and I think getting angry at people for referencing photos is as ridiculous as getting mad at someone for drawing from life.

I don't think I'd buy art from someone else who traced because it's not original, and it lacks character. I'd rather buy a more flawed piece of art that clearly had a lot of work put into it than something like the traced example of Rabid's art, which just looks sloppy. If I could do it myself, I wouldn't see the point in paying for it. :P

And realistically, I don't know many people who have been caught tracing who did so legally and responsibly.

[ocelotish]

True, unfortunately many people don't do it legally/responsibly, but that doesn't mean anything about the people who do.

Also, it really depends on how it's being traced and where the photo is from that determines originality. I used an image from morguefile and made a bit of vector art from it (directly), but it wouldn't necessarily be the same way you did it. Though again that falls under more responsible usage. Also, taking a photo yourself for reference is a lot more original than finding one you used on the web.

I feel like a lot of what you're referencing falls under the lazy lines still (or other bad tracing). I know my one prof uses his own photos, draws over them using tracing paper, then redraws and redraws until he gets it right. This is his work, but just because he "traces" doesn't mean I could do it, nor do I think it's sloppy, and I think it's had a lot of work put into it. I want to say that his method is from Jerry Pinkney, but I'm not sure about that.

I understand what you're saying, it's just a pretty big blanket statement, with a lot of assumptions too. For instance, most people who are doing it right won't be "caught" because it's often their own image, and they'll have made enough changes that it doesn't look traced. I projected a reference photo I took and traced it for this. I think it still shows a lot of work and some skill (even if it's old now). I also created a 3D model (on sketch up) for the race track on this piece (sorry for the bad photo) and traced that over so the perspective would look right without spending lots of time and effort on essentially the boring part that'll show the most if I don't get it accurately. Is that beware-worthy, or just me using a tool to save myself time, and my potential client money?

The problem is, a lot of times I can't be as honest as I'd like about my technique because of the unrealistic expectations. It's not like I hide it, but a lot of people would take even this admittance as "OMG! Tracer!" Can you blame me for not wanting to mention it?

[uozlulu.livejournal.com]

"I've been contacted by at least one other person who was wondering if she'd done the art I'd commissioned, which I thought was kind of bad form - but it's relevant that other people are being screwed over too."

I don't think it's "bad form" to ask someone if they've received their art if you're trying to find out if the artist has cheated you and other people out of art. Now if they were needling you about it to see if you're a liar, then yes, that would be rude. I mean sometimes you need to know if it's just you having a problem, and they knew you had a similar issue that they might have been gauging their own experience off of to see what they might be able to do about their own situation.

[vibris-sae.livejournal.com]

Very true! The tone of this person's email was just really off-the-wall upset and it seemed like they just wanted someone with whom they could bash the artist personally as well as professionally.

[uozlulu.livejournal.com]

Ah all right :D Your comment just came off like you frowned on it in all instances so I just wanted to point out a way it wouldn't technically be in bad form.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_patches_/]

Late to the party, but I've been watching this thread... I'm especially unimpressed with how the artist in question handled herself in her responses to everyone. I'm seeing no sincere apologies... All I can see is an attitude, excuses, and her being annoyed that she was posted here. Though, I know it's not her first time being posted here.

I hope you'll update us to say if you do or don't get your refund... because I think you've been quite patient and definitely should get your money back.

[vibris-sae.livejournal.com]

I definitely will. I see again that she made no deadline on when she planned to pay me back in her comments here. I think I have been patient, probably too patient. :P

Too bad this was my first commission ever :T I wish I'd thought to check here.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_patches_/]

Augh, I'm sorry you had such a bad experience for your first commission. That always makes me sad to hear that sort of thing. If you're looking for legit people to commission, keep an eye out for the monthly positive feedback posts they have here if you haven't already... http://artists-beware.livejournal.com/477001.html
Thankfully there are still plenty of awesome artists out there who understand the responsibility of taking commissions, so don't let this person sour you too much. :)