Kayteski

[rollingeveryday.livejournal.com]

WHO: Kaytseki

WHERE: http://kaytseki.deviantart.com/

WHAT: "Support-Appreciation special commission" -- Soft Vintage Portraits - [Screenshot in case deleted]
WHEN: I sent my order in June 30th, and received it July 8th. July 8th was when problems arose.

PROOF: Agreement for commission: one, two

Conversation: one, two, three [I know screening isn't allowed, but those things I screened were from other people--I prefer my private life to be..well..private. You can see the first part of each note under the title anyway.]

Full conversation: [For proof that I didn't cut anything out. Doesn't include last part she sent me since she deleted the whole conversation and just put that.]

EXPLAIN: This is somewhat a ripoff report. [Samples were all busts and I received a headshot.] It's also of an "attitude" one too? Not too sure. I had commissioned Kaytseki for her portraits, and all samples were busts, so I expected a bust as well, yes? I received a headshot only, so when I asked her if she could do a minor change, just to fill the bottom of the headshot, she said, "LOOOOOLLL i was actually going for the vintage floating head with ribbon look but....
I really don't like this kind of stuff, but since you're the only person who's ever complained, so not like i've ever done it lol. ok i'll do it when i have time~" The way she said, "I was going for the vintage floating head," was as if I commissioned her for an experimental. I didn't--I ordered a portrait, then later she refuses to change it. "you're the only person who's ever complained~" and that "I'll do it when I have time~" was extremely offputting since I just asked for a minor change. Afterward, the conversation blew up as you can see in the screenshots.

EDIT: Guys, it isn't soley about the, "LOOOOL," but that including the "you're the only person to ever complain," as if it's so wrong to ask why it isn't a bust. I don't understand why so many people are so focused on just how I interpreted the "LOOOL," because that was only a side factor.

Later on in the conversation, I tell her she forgot to draw the lace on the ribbons as well, since it was in the reference I gave her. She refuses to change it as well, even though I commissioned her to draw what's on the reference image.

In the end, she blocked me after sending the last message.
"1. Excuse me? I was talking about earlier, not now. Ugh, fine, you aren't mocking me, but what the hell? Replying "LOOOOL" isn't a laugh--it's a lot more than that. Anyway, it isn't just about the, "LOOOL." After that, you said, "you're the first to complain," even though I wasn't complaining. I was just asking why I didn't get a bustup like both samples you provided. Then after that, you said, "I'll do it when I have time~" as if it was a major change. It wasn't a major change. All I asked for was for the bottom of the headshot to be filled.
2. No, it's not changing each and every one of your pictures. We are talking about commissions here.
3. ..It's in her design. You accepted this commission, and you should be drawing it as it is in the reference.

HEY. Even if I'm a kid, I commissioned you. I paid money for you to draw for me. You can't just rip me off simply because 'I'm a kid.'"
Of course, she never got it since she blocked me, so I don't have a screenshot for this.

Final Edit: Hi guys, I'm sure you know that I wrote an apology on my journal and sent a personal apology to Kaytseki. She actually accepted it, haha...I was really amazed that she was willing to after all the disgusting things I said. However, I still have to apologize to the a_b community. I'm sorry for saying that you guys insulted me, haha. You were all simply pointing out how childish I was, and while being mad/hurt, they simply seeming like insults. I guess I'm kind of asking for a_b's forgiveness..? Ah, I'm not too sure. I also deleted the journal because Kay did see it, and I prefer not getting anymore comments on it. Anyway, someone already screenshot it, so it's still on the internet, haha;;

I'd also like to thank everyone for their input! Even though I didn't reply to everyone's, I read them all and realized I was wrong.

For people that saw my conversation with Theosphir--it's gone now, along with the journal(unless people took caps of the conversation as well), I hope it didn't seem like I thought of the a_b as "bloodthirsty savages." He definitely wasn't sympathizing me, but rather just trying to get the mess solved. I definitely deserved each and every point, because as many of you said, we were both rude, but I chose to bring it out publicly. I understand that many of you don't want to have anything to do with me now, haha. That's fine, especially after the way I reacted, but I just want everyone to know that I am truly sorry. Kaytseki has forgiven me, and that's all that matters.

I also hope that no one thinks of Kaytseki as rude either. Both of us were really angry and hurt during the conversation, so I wanted to let you all know she's not actually like that.

Once again, thank you all for your input! I've definitely learned from this, and from now on, I'll be more careful when problems arise.

Comments

[lizbeast.livejournal.com]

Can you link to the original reference of the character with the lace and details that she forgot?

As for the rest... eh. I see shoulders and shirt detailing and stuff, it's not exactly just a floating head, and I personally probably wouldn't have fussed over a change to a $5 commission. I know, I know, it's is still someone's hard-earned money BUT I don't feel like you were cheated any sort of quality or effort, if it's just a matter of filling in that dark grey to the bottom of the image. Personally, I wouldn't be making changes to $5 commissions, but I also would have outlined that in the TOS when offering them, and it didn't seem like she did.

Additionally, I'm not sure why you suddenly complain about her informal tone and "LOL"-ing when up until that point in your notes you'd both been riddling the conversation with various emoticons and stammering and so forth.

That said, she got pretty unprofessional in responses as well, and refusing to make changes out of spite is kind of... eh. I think you were both being a little silly over this :|

[neolucky.livejournal.com]

Agree with Lizbeast, however one thing really -really- bugs me: she asked you to pay as a "gift", meaning you cannot get a refund if anything were to happen. It's against Paypals TOS to do that isn't it? Ugh.

Either way, honestly I think the extra lace is kind of a trivial matter, and this DOES look like a bust to me. I don't excuse her behavior, it is rather atrocious and rude, but I think you're posting this more as a grudge then a real beware.

[holydust.livejournal.com]

It's against PayPal's policy for two reasons:

1. it negates the fees, which means PP doesn't get its cut.
2. it provides no protection for chargebacks. It's intended only to be used for donations and gifts, not payments for goods or services.

Unfortunately, a lot of artists still do it because of the fees thing, not knowing it's against PP's ToS.

[linksage.livejournal.com]

People have different typing styles. I think you read a little too deeply into it and took something personally when it wasn't meant to be taken that way. Your character is quite a deal more complicated than her examples, and the finished product is well within $5 worth of art. If anything she undercharged you, and I honestly didn't see any attitude from her until you started attacking her after she agreed to change it for you.

[chronidu.livejournal.com]

Could you also include your halves of the conversation? As in, both you and her's replies. It's nothing against you, but it just insures us that nothing you said might have egged on more rude responses and the like.

Basically so we have clear context.

[chronidu.livejournal.com]

^sorry, to be more clear, a screenshot of the full conversations, as apposed to just a couple comments from either side.

[ocelotish]

Eh, you asked for a portrait which could go either way if you want to get picky. Yes the body isn't there, but that doesn't seem like a big rip-off to me. You might not like it but the artist was going to change it, and in the journal she asked everyone to read she says they won't look exactly like the samples. As for the lace, she also said that she might simplify designs.

Whether she should fix things up on that piece, I don't know. It's a cheap piece, and she doesn't have anything about edits. Probably not because you got exactly what it said, a portrait that didn't look exactly like the samples (but same quality) with a slightly simplified design. I do think it's wrong to say that she wouldn't do it out of spite, but I can see why she wouldn't want to go the extra mile too.

I do have a problem with her using the gift option on paypal, she really shouldn't be doing that.

You have every right not to be happy with your commission, but it seems to me she delivered what she promised. The artist might not be the most professional, but it's not like her tone changed. It doesn't make me eager to do business with her (paypal issue aside), but it wouldn't really scare me off either.

[purpule.livejournal.com]

Rip off? You paid 5dollars and got something that I think is actually far more detailed that what was offered!

[ogawaburukku.livejournal.com]

Agreed! Five dollars is nothing. The artist was under-selling herself, big time.

[ellonwye.livejournal.com]

I know money is money, but you seem to be getting very wound up over a lovely piece of art that cost you $5. Your massive journal on dA about it seems to be complete overkill.

[linksage.livejournal.com]

I couldn't agree more.

[findmealone.livejournal.com]

The art she made for you is considerably better than the examples. You got a very good deal indeed. I would have thrown you the lolz too, admittedly - it's ridiculous you'd pitch such a fit. Your journal reflects this.

[puritikoneko.livejournal.com]

Honestly, I don't think the artist is in the wrong at all here, and from looking at the samples, I think yours came out nicely and more detailed than they did. They may be in a "bust" fashion, but yours has more detail and looks sketchy than they do, which I personally would consider an even trade. From a personal standpoint, I think you got much more than $5 worth in the piece, but again, that's my personal opinion.

And about the lace, did you actually specify in the primary commission agreement that it absolutely HAD to be there, or did you just toss a reference at her and let her have at it? If you didn't actually say UP FRONT that the lace had to be there, then the artist took the liberty that she stated ON THE SUBMISSION EXAMPLES that she may change their outfits.

You paid $5 via the gift option, which was your mistake to begin with, as most people are aware that sending money via a gift through pay-pal screws you out of disputing the transaction later on.

In all honesty, I can't say that blocking you was the best option, but she did, in fact, say that she would fix it for you. Apparently fixing it right then and there isn't good enough? Because if it had been me, I would have pointed you right back to the submission examples and told you that you should have read more carefully before purchasing a commission. Based on the information given by the artist before the agreement, (her stating that she may change outfits) I don't think she's obligated to change anything about your commission. The fact that she agreed to, even after you received what you paid for (in a timely manner) shows some pretty decent business practices in my book.

[puritikoneko.livejournal.com]

*Looks LESS sketchy

[digitalis.livejournal.com]

For $5 I think this is quite an acceptable piece. I think the quality is there and I'm going to side with the artist on this one.

[rollingeveryday.livejournal.com]

I know the quality is there(I really do like the piece.), but don't you see the way she retorted?

[imlikat.livejournal.com]

I am thinking that I'm siding with kaytseki, here. I mean, yeah, she does use an informal tone, but both of you were, until you freaked out about a LOL.

This is a $5 commission, and she stated that it may not look exactly like the examples, and that she may change the outfits.

Also, you said in a comment in your journal: And actually, I do admit this is 90% of a personal attack.

You also complained about the coloring going outside the lines a little in a few places. Seriously?

Neither party comes off smelling like roses--there is some unnecessary attitude, to be sure--but I'd rather take the risk of commissioning her in the future than have you commission me :/

[kairi-koitra.livejournal.com]

I'm siding with the artist on this one. You spent $5, she sent you an image where I honestly think she undercut herself on it. The image is way better then the images she linked as examples and I say this because where the busts are rather sketchy and very light to hardly any color to them at all more like a color wash. She gave you a better detailed image, with more color and cleaner lines. Sure its not an actual bust but when you compare the images side by side your eyes are more attracted to your commission then the others and its not because its just a "floating head."

Yes she laughed at you but I LOL at a lot of my friends and it's just how I speak its not really offensive at least to me it reads as a semi friendly chat and that she's just kind of surprised at you being upset about it. In her commission statement she says "it may not look *Exactly* like the examples, and that she *MAY* change the outfits." meaning she's going to take an artistic freedom approach a bit with these. It's stated right there so by commissioning her your agreeing to her terms stated.

The only thing I can say I don't agree with is her having you mark the payment as a gift. Because this tatic is often used by people who scam and run off with peoples money. Because techically as a *gift* she doesn't owe you anything even though you have written documentation saying otherwise. paypal isn't going to view your proof with any grain of salt because you used their program wrong.

Hopefully you learned something from this event and if I were you I'd take the DA journal down it looks worse on You then it does her but that's just my two cents on it. Either way I look at it like this, you got your art even though she techically didn't have to give it to you by the way you paid. The art is better quality then the images she had used as examples and she probably would have fixed things a little bit if you didn't jump on the offensive right away.

I think as many artists have said the only thing you've really proven here is a warning to other artists that they may not want to hav dealings with you in the future do to your handlings of this situation.

[ogawaburukku.livejournal.com]

YEAH. I noticed that... I wonder if she does that for larger commissions, too.

[silvertales.livejournal.com]

Going to have to side with the artist on this one...

While, yes, the language is a bit on the informal/unprofessional side, it is so for the both of you. Frankly, she undercharged for this commission, and at $5, she'd be nuts to make any sort of changes after they're completed, they're just not worth the money/time/effort.

You got a lot more than $5 art out of this deal, particularly considering her TOS clearly stated she might simplify design elements, and due to the inexpensive nature of the commission, I agree with her.

The "floating head" and shoulders, falls well within generally accepted parameters of what constitutes a portrait, which usually stop around the collarbone.

Asking to pay via the "gift" option is shaky, as you cannot initiate a chargeback for this option, but, it's not like she took your $5 and disappeared.

[semisonicstar.livejournal.com]

Meh, I dunno, the "I don't really like floating heads" would've made me lol too - it sounds like you're being silly to me, I would've run with it. I don't really feel you were unreasonable to ask, but I kinda think you were a bit unreasonable in your response. Seems like just iffy communication all around... not just on her part, like Lizbeast said.

[keaalu.livejournal.com]

"it sounds like you're being silly to me, I would've run with it"
This. Plus, the whole "textual stammering" she sent to the artist in her second message ("I-If it isn't too much to ask...a-and it'd really make me happy." - what?) would have thrown me off, too.

[fierycatthing.livejournal.com]

Echoing the above comments that for five bucks you got a pretty nice custom piece of your character that is more detailed than the provided examples. She used a slightly different style, yes, but one that she felt was more appropriate to your character (and I agree).

I think you were unnecessarily critical and extremely passive aggressive when you didn't get instant gratification, I don't at all blame the artist for blocking you.

[edge-chan.livejournal.com]

its seems she isn't. Which is sad because her art is amazing and unfairly cheap :C

[notorious_hunty.livejournal.com]

:/ This isn't a valid beware. You just told everyone to avoid you in this post. Agreeing with the other commenters.

[zackfig.livejournal.com]

Maybe that was the point! To warn us of the OP as a commissioner.

[alcyione.livejournal.com]

I saw rudeness on BOTH sides here. The conversations look like a catfight, and that makes me sad. :/ The art the artist produced is very pretty and quite a steal for $5.

[ogawaburukku.livejournal.com]

I think I used to moderate a group with this artist...

If you'd paid $25 or something, that might be worth complaining about, but when you do a five dollar commission, you have to realize that even if it's not perfect, you are getting a bargain. So yeah, you probably were the first person to complain....

[trimblecat.livejournal.com]

Wow, she really undersold herself. o-o; I would have paid more than five for coloring like that.

[tobias-radjin.livejournal.com]

Got to side with everybody else here, it's a wonderfull piece and it's worth more than five bucks. The artist really really undersold herself and I think it was worth every cent.

[kium.livejournal.com]

I agree with everybody else on the 'it was only five bucks' thing but I do have to say, that excessive amount of loling and tildas was pretty weird.

[holydust.livejournal.com]

Throw one more into the "siding with the artist", here. For the record, I've never heard of her.

1. She had good reason to be incredulous in response to you griping over $5 art.
2. Your journal on DA is totally overkill. Way to blow it out of the water.
3. She way undersold herself. I would have bought that commission for $25 or $30.

[keaalu.livejournal.com]

I'm beginning to think the OP just doesn't have much idea of what art is worth, to be honest, the way she keeps saying "it doesn't matter if it's $1 or $5." That's... really not a useful comparison, when both are pretty much chump change.

It's telling from her screenshots that she was looking into clawing back a refund through Paypal, too.

[artrica.livejournal.com]

I don't see any problems until you started flipping out on her because of an "lol". :/ I know a lot of artists who are generally very chill and casual with their commissioners. She was not mocking you in anyway. It was nice of her to offer to edit it for you for such a cheap commission too, despite her noting that actual picture might be different from the examples.

Plus portraits don't have to be from the bust up. And the quality of the picture you got is much better than her examples.

I think you should try apologizing for your outburst to her. Whether she ends up fixing the picture or not, at least there won't be hard feelings between you two. It's just unfortunate this happened because of a small miscommunication.

PS: on the gifting option. I've seen other artists do it before, they all have excellent commission records though. I would just do some background research on the artist before I commission them of course, but I don't see a problem with it.

[ocelotish]

It's against the paypal TOS to have people send it as a gift if it's for a good or service. While they still might complete the commission as planned, it's still unethical and leaves the commission in a bind if something goes wrong.

[miryhis.livejournal.com]

I agree that both of you came across as rude...but the smileys in the notes threw me off. When I contact someone on a business transaction, I try to keep the use of smileys to a minimum. This is just to keep the "Hey, I'm giving you money, let's be friends!" vibe low. And the typed stuttering. But to each their own! It obviously works for some people.

Any, the artist came across as very condescending, especially toward the end. Calling someone "kid" then going on that tangent just makes anyone look bad. Even when you did irk her, the response just makes her look unprofessional. Surely, there could be a better response to say "no" or "I can work on it when I have time".

I'd say just to take it as a lesson, and be careful how you handle something like this next time. It really did seem like you were trying to boss her around through the notes, a change in wording could do wonders.

[stormslegacy.livejournal.com]

I saw it this way too. I don't think the artist was totally innocent, I think that most people in business transactions should speak more clearly and with a lot less condescension. Reading that as rude is entirely valid--I thought it was rude too. Definitely never a way to handle a customer.

That said, I do think the OP was extremely unreasonable in how this was handled. A $5 commission is not the same thing as a $60 commission--there is a lot of leeway to be had in regards to details and while it was subtly mentioned in the commission description, I do feel that it's something that should be obvious based on time vs. quality etc. Fast, accuracy/quality, cheap. Pick two.

As an artist, I'm always surprised when people ask for changes to simplified/stylistic pieces. Part of the steep discount is the amount of leeway taken. I also think "when I have time" is a valid response, even if it is something small. You don't know her work environment, etc.