A Trade Gone Terribly Wrong (Update)

[shestah.livejournal.com]

WHO: Donryu of FA / Catboyd of DA / Donovan

WHERE:
The agreement actually took place in person at the art institute of atlanta.

WHAT:
It was for a heavy duty trade on a pretty large scale. A poster sized painting of a scene from his novel. It was Digital. We agreed in the beginning of the winter quarter of 2006, roughly mid January. We had both agreed upon a large exchange. He was going to do two of my characters full color in traditional media, while I was doing a scene from his novel roughly 30" x 40" 400 dpi. An image that I would have charged $200 for if it were a commission.

I completed my end in July of 2006.took a little over 40hrs. This was his response:
http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/8607/approvalcomments.png

Over the next few years, I would ask him about his end every now and then, but he was always having a really hard time with life, or something really big was going on. I felt bad asking, so I let it go for a while.

In 2009 I believe, my friends who were present when we initially made the deal to trade started urging me to contact him about it. So at the FWA convention, I asked him again. Life seemed to have gotten a bit worse for him. My friend Kelly thought he was just giving me the brush off again, since he was there and had all his art supplies with him. So we decided that we would give him a poke about it the next day.

When we came by his table, he was busy coloring commissions for people. I was going to go back, since I get really nervous very easily, and he wasn't acknowledging us anyway, but Kelly greeted him and started talking with him about it. I felt bad that life wasn't treating him well, since I've been there myself. So when I looked at the art he was doing, I asked if maybe he would just do me one of the badges he was working on instead of the actual trade. I figured this would make life easier for him. He said sure. So I left it at that.

I left a few reminders on his DA page during the next year, but no response.

The next year, or the year after that (I seriously can't remember if it was 2010 or 2011) I went to his table and asked him about it again. This time, he said he was busy traveling conventions, and said he would not have access to anything but pencil and pen. So I would have to wait. My friend, now agitated with me for waiting so long, urged me to say something more. I brought up the fact that it had been many years, and he sort of went very quiet. It felt really awkward, so I wished him well and went back to my own table again...

While at my table, a few artists told me he had no intention of doing any art in exchange for the painting I did. I told them that Donovan promised to do at least something this year. They all had a good laugh at my expense, then told me I should charge him as if it were a commission. I didn't take this seriously at first.

Eight months later, after just watching him visit my page every once in a long while, I sent him this note:
http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/4103/notetocatboyd.png
his Response:
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/1672/catboydresponse1.png
It felt like every other time I talked to him, and this time, I sort of felt like he really was trying to blow me off again. So I responded with a bit more force, something I have never done.
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/4850/shayresponse2.png
And my friends were right, because that note got me blocked from responding to him. I can no longer send him notes on DA at this point. But he still responded to me.
http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/1080/catboydrespond3.png
That was a blow. I probably shouldn't have kept at him in my second note, but I'm feeling really frustrated. After sharing the notes with the friends who were there during all the times I tried to talk to him, I ended up sending him a note on another website called FA in order to respond to him. Because there is really nothing more frustrating than someone calling you a liar then blocking your ability to respond.
http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/4621/finalnote.png

I sort of feel bad for my last note to him, since I wrote that while I was upset. I know that's just the worst thing you can do online, and I wish I hadn't done it. I really need to better control my frustration.

I assume this will be our last correspondence, since I am blocked from commenting on his pages.

As I stated in my note, I have just added him to my list of unpaid commissioners. If my notes were really out there and rude, please let me know, it was never my intention, since as far as I knew, we were friends. I guess I really just have to look at this as a loss. I'm not trying to say he is a bad person, or ruin his life in any way by posting this. I just want to post my experience. It's been very difficult, and I hope it doesn't happen to anyone else.

I just received another note from Donovan after he had come across this page.
http://img802.imageshack.us/img802/2074/donovanreplynew.png
This is the badge/Icon he linked me:
http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/3198/unled2hr.png
I appreciate the effort, but he blocked me without asking for a ref of one of my characters, and has gotten it wrong. The name is also unfortunately wrong :C and, it seems to be digital... He is calling it a badge, but it is just one of the icons he is offering on FA. http://www.furaffinity.net/view/6570479
All considering, I am actually just thankful for a much nicer reply and the unblock ♥
My reply:
http://img805.imageshack.us/img805/5136/myreplyagain.png
I hope my reply was not overly rude :C

This is ongoing at the moment. Also, I would like to once again make sure that no one bothers him or notes him regarding this issue. I really frown upon harassment of any kind.

Comments

[hamburger.livejournal.com]

I have approved this, but if you could please place the images under a cut? Thank you.

[shestah.livejournal.com]

sure thing, just have to figure it out right quick

[purpule.livejournal.com]

Your agreement was a trade for art, so if someone started asking me for money and then suggestions on how I could make money for them, I'd probably get pretty narky too.

HOWEVER, I wouldn't agree to a trade and then never fulfil my part of the agreement. The fact that it's been this long and they haven't even thought to do their part is appalling, and then brushing you off with a "well I just can't" attitude - well, I'm sorry, you just have to. You entered into an agreement, and someone did something for you, unless you want to look like an absolute arse/user of a person, you kind of have to make good on your agreement.

People not making good on their trade agreements is suuuuch a common issue though, it's part of the reason why I stopped trading years ago (and only tend to pick it up with people I trust nowadays)

The only thing I'm wondering about is do you have any points in writing that said what his part of the deal was? For now all he's claiming are badges, and all we have is your word that it was two traditional pieces - so for all we know he could be right in that he was going to give you a badge and you went a little overboard on your end of the trade.

[spiffystuff.livejournal.com]

Really? I thought it was pretty standard that trades where one half was completed deserved either the art OR the monetary equivalent if the other side simply cannot/will not do the art for some reason.

[synviver.livejournal.com]

I am so sorry that you've gotten the runaround from this person for so long. I don't think that your notes were rude at all, I personally admire people that are able to be honest and to the point the way you were.

Thank you for the beware.

[dreamerdragoon.livejournal.com]

Very low of him to accuse you of guilt-tripping 'ploys' when guilt-tripping excuses would appear to be his response to every question. And if he really did promise an equivalent art exchange and is now playing the "well it's your own stupid fault for putting so much effort into my half" card whilst pretending a badge was all that was promised, that's even lower.

I felt your notes were perfectly polite, by the way. I also don't see a problem with asking for a monetary equivalent. The trade agreement has obviously been violated by this point so the person who broke contract should be subject to requests for compensation.

[torikonero.livejournal.com]

I have noticed over the years that there are some people out there for whom there is ALWAYS something happening. Life is hard, bills are due, moving here, moving there, school is bad, family is having trouble, etc etc etc. I'm not saying life isn't a legitimate excuse to sometimes fall behind on work, as long as the person falling behind tells everyone they are doing business with about it and makes up the work ASAP. But when it's ALWAYS something, it becomes tedious. It's the boy who cried wolf, only the wolf is some sort of life drama. This guy is capable of producing art, and has been for many years.

Don't expect anything from him, but in the future, make sure you look past an artist's skill and to the way they handle business. One of the things I do every time I commission someone for more than $10 is browse their journals to see if they post about life drama happening all the time. If they do, I don't bother, because between the time I pay them and the time they (maybe) do the art, there will be 400 crises keeping them from producing my piece.

This person is incredibly rude and entitled. I am glad you posted this beware, because although it is on a very specific subject (large trades), his attitude shines through and I doubt that changes much from transaction to transaction. That having been said, you were WAY too nice to him, in my opinion. If you plan to enter into business transactions in the future, be prepared to be firm, confident, and insistent (but not rude) about what you are owed. Once someone displays that they can be stepped on or ignored without consequence, usually that's the first thing people do to them. It's an unfortunate facet of both the artistic community and business at large that often leaves the kinder, gentler people in the dust and without what they paid for.

[wolf-goat.livejournal.com]

I also get tired of seeing these "life is always hard" journals because they invariably come from people who constantly post new personal art and are constantly taking more commissions...

[rmoorcat.livejournal.com]

sue him for breach of contract. and you have rights under copyright law, if this was for and is being used in a novel or a published way.

[koisnake.livejournal.com]

Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't it cost money to sue someone? Would it be worth the $80 she is asking? If that is the case, it may not be worth it besides the satisificatin that she is now forrced to pay but in the end, you lost money yourself. If I'm wrong, then never mind me.

[koisnake.livejournal.com]

You asking for monetary compensation is perfectly ok, and I agree with you. I once didn't finish a part of the trade and like you, the person kindly asked if they could be paid for their time instead of getting the trade (and like you, they gave me a nice discount). I agreed, paid said person, and we were all set.

But man. This person is rather blunt and rude and didn't even apologize for your wait. I can see why she is upset with the sudden asking for money but in the same time, she is going on six years without completing her side of the trade. Good luck. I hope she either pays the $80 you asked or finish her art.

[spiffystuff.livejournal.com]

Too rude? No, if anything you were too nice, and your responses are 100% reasonable.
Just reading these notes makes me want to do things to this guy it wouldn't be polite of me to post >:/ And it's not even me who was swindled.

[wolf-goat.livejournal.com]

I think you handled this perfectly well, you were very reasonable and polite. The price you asked was reasonable, and you approached it well.

Donryu on the other hand...all I can say that's acceptable is that the beware is 100% well deserved. What an attitude.

[magickitsune.livejournal.com]

Yikes. I can't believe he's so dismissive over a 6-year outstanding trade, especially one so large (and one you gave him a break on!). His completely remorseless attitude towards it is what really gets me steamed.

For a smaller trade it might be pushy to ask for money, but this was a solid work week. If anything you were overly pleasant about the whole thing.

[taasla.livejournal.com]

Hm, funny how he says he doesn't have the money to pay you, but he just made $70 on FA.

[shestah.livejournal.com]

he has addressed your comment in our latest discussion ^^;

[likeshine.livejournal.com]

ack, i totally jumped when i saw my name in there! hehe

i don't think you sound rude, just frustrated

[shestah.livejournal.com]

omg likeshine, I'm so sorry, would you like me to blur out your name? I'm so sorry

[sigilgoat.livejournal.com]

You didn't come off as rude to me, and I would continue reminding him about this. That's something you could also take to small claims court, if you felt it necessary.

[sigilgoat.livejournal.com]

And just for my own curiosity, would you post a link to what you did? I'd love to see it c:

[ellonwye.livejournal.com]

If your 'guilt trips' are making him feel guilty it's because he knows he's in the wrong. Simple, really.

[wyngaed.livejournal.com]

This this this this!! The only reason he feels like you're guilt-tripping him is because he knows that he has messed up! I hate to admit it, but I have been in that position before. Except I got my act together and apologized and sorted out the situation.

This person needs to grow up and own up to what he has done to you. Your messages to him are not rude at all. He's just feeling attacked by them because he knows he's in the wrong and is too much of a child to admit it.

Thanks for the beware! Glancing at his FA page he's not the type of person I'd go anywhere near anyway, but he looks to be pretty popular, so I'll be sure to warn others about his attitude!

[dangercrow.livejournal.com]

six years, jesus. beware well warrented.

[deejthistle.livejournal.com]

What strikes me the most is his hypocrisy. You're "guilt-tripping" by explaining (briefly) the worth of your time (and only then to give reference to why you're asking for a certain amount), while he lists all his expenses with seemingly no shame.

Even if he produced your art right now, I'd personally avoid him for the 'tude alone. Thanks for posting!

EDIT FOR EDIT: It's good that he unblocked you, but, looking at his FA page, that badge is below the quality of even his icons. :C Good on you for calling him out on the discrepancies and that it took an A_B post to get him moving.

[puritikoneko.livejournal.com]

Pfftt.. If anyone has been rude or "guilt tripping" through the entire transaction, it's him.

Honestly, if I had an outstanding art trade of that long, and the person I owed confronted me in person, I'd be so embarrassed and humiliated I'd wanna hide under a rock. The fact that he kept blowing you off and continue to feed you a string of reasons as to why he can't give you what he owes and then accuse YOU of guilt-tripping... Yeah... What's a real prize this guy is.

Thanks for the beware!

[jurann.livejournal.com]

A strategically placed LJ-cut would rule on this post. That's all I've got.

[hamburger.livejournal.com]

I already asked for this on the first reply, please do not post requests for an lj-cut if a moderator has already done so. Thank you.

[ryunwoofie.livejournal.com]

That's really shocking to me since he always seems to harp on doing things on time, doing what you owe, always constantly working ect. I know life and bills suck.. but he certainly had time somewhere between then and now when he could have done it. :C

[aggro-badger.livejournal.com]

Well, from reading the note he sent, according to his records he had completed his half.
I'm not sure if a verbal agreement between people half a decade ago accurately reflects one's current business practices.
Because, yeah, like you said, it seems in stark contrast to how he currently conducts himself and his commissions on FA (from what I've seen).

[epiceternity.livejournal.com]

Urgh six years! And yet he has time to take commissions and go to conventions? So life not that bad that he can't draw so why can't he do your pic? And to add insult to injury, he can't even remember what he owes you? He's damn lucky you weren't one to make a big scene at the con about the fact he's been owing $200 of art for a number of years, he would have lot quite a few commissions to pay his bills...
That's appalling and a well deserved beware.

[ljmydayaway.livejournal.com]

Wait, he's been going to conventions the whole time he's owed this art? The cost of ONE convention would have repaid the OP. I'm sure he could have handled missing out on one for a year. :c

[otherscape.livejournal.com]

I can't believe he accused you of guilt tripping when all of his notes pretty much said "pity me!" over and over again. Though I don't think this guy initially intended to scam you, he seems like the type who thinks trades are not as important as commissions. I can understand doing commissions before trades to pay the bills, but he could have easily worked on yours a little at a time between commissions. At least something would have gotten done.

But seriously, 6 years? Holy crap.

[conigliomannaro.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the beware. Nothing in your notes was over the top, and his behaviour is appalling. This guy needs a reality check.

[sigilgoat.livejournal.com]

I have to agree that the quality of the badge he sent you was nothing compared to the value of the piece you made for him initially.

That really is a shame to have on your conscience as a trade example, and I really do wish you the best in the future should you choose to take them again.

I personally only take small trades with close friends, or if it's someone I haven't met or talked to much, I call my half gift art, and hope I get gift art in return c:

[aggro-badger.livejournal.com]

"I call my half gift art, and hope I get gift art in return c: "
This is how I tend to think of all trades. I'm uncomfortable delving into something more formal unless both parties, upfront, decide on exactly how much the trade images are "worth" (ie: we are both doing $20 sketches) so if there's any dispute there's no question as to what is potentially owed.

Also because of situations like this, where one party goes a overboard and wants more compensation than the other feels they agreed to when the trade began (it seems to be a common problem).

[silvertales.livejournal.com]

He's been producing new art and taking commissions over the six years you've been waiting for your half of the trade? Sorry, I call foul. Six years! There is "letting things slide" due to Real Life intrusions, and then there's just taking advantage of someone. I think you handled this with a great deal more patience and grace than I probably would have.

Was intrigued by the "guilt trip" accusation... since guilt trips are only effective if someone has something to feel guilty for, and in this case, hypocritical.

[vellacraptor.livejournal.com]

Would you mind posting your half? I'm curious to see...

Shame you didn't get something adequate in return. I personally know bills are tough to deal with, but really they could have cut down their personal expenses enough to pay back 80$

[shestah.livejournal.com]

Here was my end:
http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/3986/soulsendbylazeros.png
It was still a long time ago, so don't expect it to be the same quality as my current stuff, but it did take a long time for me to make back then.