Beware of Spirit Star (Dr. Neko)

[mariechan.livejournal.com]

WHO: Spirit Star (Dr. Neko)
Ericacrowecaw on deviantart

WHERE: Whirled

WHAT: Using my flash files to sell to other customers.

WHEN: About a few days ago...

PROOF:

Conversations:







Avatar was then taken down along with comments.

Later what happened. I went to comment on their listing that they used to accept payments:



The base has been switched out with a new piece here:



Keep in mind before today they were using my artwork. Anyways, compare it to this:



Some of the animations are roughly the same too. I added the flash files if anyone with CS4 or above wants to compare.

I'd like to add one more thing. Look at the state list here:



This is what the state looks like:



And they sent a bunch of people to harass me in comments. Right now I am being taunted, picked on and mocked because of this :/

Here are some other comments:





EXPLAIN:
I share flash bases so people can sell their derivatives in the shop. Sale of derivatives go straight back to me through the function of attribution. Someone used this flash base here:

http://www.freewebs.com/marie_the_kazegal/Bases/digitrade.fla

But they were not selling their edits in the shop. Instead the person was soliciting other members on whirled to sell "custom" edits of my bases, practically selling the service of making them an avatar using my flash files. I went to confront them and they deleted it. I also asked them to delete the custom sale avatar (used so people could pay the person) and instead they edited it at the last minute and made a knockoff copy of my base.

The knockoff is here: http://www.whirled.com/#shop-l_5_109663

Their base is here:

http://www.2shared.com/file/mt2mc_CW/Kangarooish_ThingCs4.html?

I do not have CS4 so I can not compare the flash files. Would anyone with CS4 like to compare?


Also I am currently contacting the whirled admins.
EDIT:

This took so long to come up. In the time that I made this post, the artist recanted. They said they put themselves in my shoes and realized they were being mean, apologized to me and asked to be my friend. I accepted the apology, so I would like a resolved tag.

Comments

[kerstin-orion.livejournal.com]

This comment was unnecessary and borders on trolling. I am therefore screening it.

Please refrain from commenting on art quality unless it is a factor in the beware. See rule #4.

[greenreaper.livejournal.com]

OK, you want a more specific comment?

The two images are visually distinct; about the only thing similar is that they both wear a blue garment and are both digitigrade. I don't think the submitter has a reasonable case for copyright infringement, unless their underlying animation code is still being used (which I am not qualified to examine).

[kayla-la.livejournal.com]

It's not about being more specific, but 'I don't think this is copyright infringement' is hella different from 'I like his better' and I have no idea why you thought that'd be appropriate to blurt out in AB.

[greenreaper.livejournal.com]

I didn't think it was inappropriate, either - preference is criticism now? The comment was partially intended to indicate that the works were different. I admit this point was not well-made and so my follow-up was specific to that.

(For the record, Spiritstar/Dr. Neko also appears to be female.)

[kerstin-orion.livejournal.com]

Whether you agree or not was not why I gave you that warning. Your initial comment in no way dealt with the issue at hand.

Disagreeing with the OP's claim is of course acceptable in the comm.

[mariechan.livejournal.com]

The animations count too.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b268/MarieElana/comparison-1.gif

The person apologized but I still was able to get into the flash file and compare the animations. This is to clarify; the artist already apologized and admitted their wrongdoing.

[mariechan.livejournal.com]

To clarify I wasn't able to make an animation comparison until I got a CS3 version of the file. Then I was able to import the animation into flash and make the necessary comparison.

[banrai.livejournal.com]

I'm not trying to be contradictory, but really there's only so many ways to do a walk cycle animation of something that's just shuffling along. :/

[mariechan.livejournal.com]

I just don't think you could do one from scratch and have the leg tweens match up that well.

Whirled ruled in my favor though. They saw it as a clear copy.

[greenreaper.livejournal.com]

Fair enough. It's their site, and they're the experts here. I'm glad that you were able to work it out with the artist concerned.

[mariechan.livejournal.com]

I am too. I never heard much about what happened to the earlier commission where they used my base, but I guess I'll just have to let that part go.

[greenreaper.livejournal.com]

For sure, I don't think Dr. Neko was right to sell the "base" with the original artwork, but if she's 16, I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt with regards to knowing that beforehand. I think the problem came after you started "pushing for blood" after they redid the artwork. :-/

As for the animations, I am not an animator and I don't know how different the underlying "code" is, but to me they do look different. Their closest paw stays flatter on the forward movement; the back one does not flick forward so strongly. The tail has multiple points of articulation, where yours appears to have one. Their ears have one motion in their loop, yours has two (going down further). Their furthest hand flicks out and both appears more articulated.

[mariechan.livejournal.com]

I think it's still clear she did hers with reference to mine to *spite* me for trying to stop her. And the back leg matches pretty close. I don't think it would just happen on accident without her looking.

I also saw a stream of her making this and multiple times she was flipping back to my base file for reference. That, combined with the "whatnow" state, it's obvious the person was *deliberately* trying to make it like my avatar to taunt me.

[mariechan.livejournal.com]

You're a mod, right? I was trying to add a resolved tag (artist made up with me) and I can't seem to add it in.

[kayla-la.livejournal.com]

Added the tag, only mods can tag.

[mariechan.livejournal.com]

Thank-you!

[megumi-kitten.livejournal.com]

This is why I am shy about selling my art. I swear, AB has made me paranoid. XD

It's a terrible thing that they did that, and not only that, people taunted you because of yOUR work. It's things like that that make people not want to share thier art, then they get yelled at for NOT sharing it. Horrible circle.

I hope things get worked out for you. It IS your art, and you DO get the say on it, no matter what anyone else tries to claim. Even if they changed it, it doesn't make that art thiers. It's still your base!

[mariechan.livejournal.com]

Thanks.

I still openly share my flash bases because it ends up netting me more sales with attribution. However, soliciting customers for base edits is more of a commission than say selling the base edit on the open market for everyone to buy. It's the latter that gets me some earnings because as the original creator I get a cut of the sales.

[megumi-kitten.livejournal.com]

Which, IMO, is not right. And the fact this person clearly has talent to sell thier own stuff, as you state in your comments, it's a real WTF.

[megumi-kitten.livejournal.com]

Her taking and editing your based isnt right, not your sales tactic*

Sorry, I accidentally a sentence there.

[mariechan.livejournal.com]

Yeah.

She's actually a very good frame by frame animator for being 16. It sounds like she has a bit of a bad attitude at times but she said that she realized she was being mean to me after putting herself in my shoes.

[megumi-kitten.livejournal.com]

Then I commend her for that. Hopefully she'll reprimand her whiteknights as well.

[mariechan.livejournal.com]

Her white knights had a change of heart as well. I don't know if I expect her to reprimand them, being 16 it can sometimes be hard to tell your friends off for what they're doing, especially when they're supporting you.

Maybe I'm being kind on them for their age but many of the people on whirled are young adults or teens.

[megumi-kitten.livejournal.com]

I will say I'm rather impressed they all acknowledged thier mistake so easily and readily. I'd give them props for that and tell the original girl to keep things like this in mind in the future.

Hopefully you just made a better business person of her!

[mariechan.livejournal.com]

Hopefully! She is rather young and I think she may be inexperienced with being all business like.

[taasla.livejournal.com]

I would contact Whirled and have it pulled for infringement.

[mariechan.livejournal.com]

Whirled managed to delete all of the instances. The admins have been pretty good to me.

[claytronic.livejournal.com]

Those "raptor things" are the most generic creature. I've seen numerous people on FA with characters like that :I

I don't see how they're copying you when there are people like this:
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/6484525
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/6455070/
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/6459737/

I don't understand how they're using your base, either. The characters move differently and have different body shapes.

[mariechan.livejournal.com]

They were originally selling edits from my flash file. I told them no, and then at the last minute they decided to make this.

And you know, I know the creature is generic, but it's more of the circumstances. Someone sells an edit of your flash file, gets caught out, makes a copy the next day and then puts "oh what now?" as part of it.


And I saw them working on it in a stream and they were flipping back and forth between my flash file.

This beware is resolved anyways.

[claytronic.livejournal.com]

Ohh yeah I getcha.

Glad it's resolved

[mariechan.livejournal.com]

Thanks.

I really don't try to claim I own raptors, it's just more the facts and circumstances of what went on.

[poizenkat.livejournal.com]

I'd think that they made their own to sell instead 8x

Well, sometimes I use something i like as a reference. They do look VERY different.

[mariechan.livejournal.com]

They do but the animations are quite similar in some regards and I don't think that would happen accidentally.

[poizenkat.livejournal.com]

Similar as in....walking??

[mariechan.livejournal.com]

The back legs match in motion. I think they directly referenced the animations I did by going through the keyframes and copying the poses. The side-by-side shows a lot of similarities.

But more so the fact that this was done in *response* because I said they couldn't use my flash file for it, and then they added in that "whatnow" thing as if to rub it in my face. They were originally using my flash file and selling "Customs" made from it and only put this one out after I told them to stop.

Whirled ruled in my favor and said that even though it could have been made from scratch there were enough similarities in animation to constitute copying.

[poizenkat.livejournal.com]

Or...in response, they made their own. I can see that you dont see it that way XD but thats how i would see it. The only real similarity is that they're both walking... and the style of the piece is close as well i guess. the animations seem different enough.

meh i dont know... there are only so many ideas to copy, and one of the most common animations is basic walking. I dont know how Whirled works, but in THIS case it might not be a coincidence, but in many others it probably will be and I hope that they dont knock down any other animations because they're "copying"

[mariechan.livejournal.com]

I don't think we're going to come to an agreement here. If you can't see the similarities the way I see it and if you can't factor in the circumstances and how the artist has treated and taunted me when I told them not to sell my work, then I don't think you'll get the point of this beware or why the whirled administration took down the new one they made that was in direct reference to my work.

[poizenkat.livejournal.com]

I understand this beware in the fact that BEFORE the artist made their own they were selling YOUR work, correct? I also understand how hard it is to be taunted and treated badly just for standing up for yourself.
Then again, i see the artist's side in the fact that their art IS their own, its not traced or even remotely similar in anything other than the style and animation (which is just that. Similar).

Agree to disagree, i guess. Just be careful when you suspect anyone of copying, because it could be a coincidence in other cases. THIS one you guys already had some issues, so I understand to an extent how you can feel that way.

[mariechan.livejournal.com]

"I understand this beware in the fact that BEFORE the artist made their own they were selling YOUR work, correct?"

I think it was that and also their reaction. They used my work, I told them to stop, they reacted with churning out one with animations that look like they were eyeballed off of mine, and she did it entirely to spite me when I asked her to take down the ones of mine that she was still selling.

And I don't think it was coincidence. She used my base as a direct reference to make hers.

If you check this stream, http://www.livestream.com/theanimatorsclub/video?clipId=pla_7ddc164e-a388-4ae0-aed8-51770c56ff27

Hour and 17 minutes in I saw her flip back to the base edit she was originally selling on commission. And she obviously had it handy and was attempting to make her avatar as close to mine as possible. There was an attempt to plagiarize.

All the while she also talks about how I should die and how no one will love me after all this is done. This was just the creating process for the frame but we never see the animation process in the stream and I think that's a vital part to what constituted the copying. I know anyone can draw a digitrade but some of the motions matched pretty close. Once again because everything was eyeballed there were a few differences in the final product but enough similarity to constitute copying.

[poizenkat.livejournal.com]

Yes, as a reference. Everyone uses references once and a while.

in my opinion, it doesn't look similar enough to be "art theft".

I understand how you see it that way but i personally do not. Perhaps it WAS made to get a rise out of you, but even so it's just not similar enough to look like art theft.

As I have said, agree to disagree.

[mariechan.livejournal.com]

Well I'm watching more of it. She said explicitly that she's going to make an avatar similar to this one but not enough so no one would be able to tell 46 minutes in. This was a planned thing. It was something she did for being angry at me, and she also went rifling through all my work trying to find evidence that someone else did what she did and that I was just singling her out. They pretty much were -trying- to make it like mine because they were angry with my response, and, well, does it make it okay to do that? I think what I had mentioned is worth mentioning in the beware. She attempted to do something like my work because she was mad at me.

Not to mention her reasoning to sell the custom of my base is that I was famous, and that hers looked way different from the original (as in she added rainbows and stuff), and that I make the bases publicly available, and that if someone wants to buy an edit of a base from her they should be able to.

So it says there right in the stream, it shows the artist's motives, I don't think it really need to be debated that the TRIED to make an avatar like mine as a slap in the face and that artists should have a little more respect to one another when it comes to matters like this.

[poizenkat.livejournal.com]

That was not what was being debated at all. I never disagreed with that. What I disagree with is it being art theft.

Agree to disagree. This argument is going in circles.

[mariechan.livejournal.com]

Also 40 minutes in you can see the custom that they made and sold to another person for.