Should you use AB as a threat/incentive to an artist avoiding you before actually making a post?

[neive.livejournal.com]

Sorry for the oddly worded question haha. By artist I do mean one who is actually having shady/unprofessional behavior, not just any one you start a transaction with. :) I'm in a position right now where I might need to make a post of my own soon for a pretty popular artist.

I commissioned them at FC of this year, which was in mid January, and the piece has been finished since late May (it was a sketch badge). But for some reason or another they have still not mailed it to me. The last two messages I sent politely asking them about it have gone unreplied to, one was an email and one was a note (I waited a month in between each message as to not bombard them). The note I know for sure was read within 24 hours and just never got responded to. The email was sent about a week ago now, and while I do know there's a chance they might not have read it yet, with how much easy access people have to email these days and getting ignored in my last message/the other responses just having me resend information they were already given, I'm not feeling too positive about it.

They also state on their front page that email is their preferred method of communication and where to go to inquire about new commissions, so that seems to further the idea that it wouldn't take too long for them to check it, but I could be wrong. They have been active on FA during this time. I always make sure to wait at least a month in between asks, sometimes months. I'm perfectly fine with being patient since I'm a slower artist myself, but not getting replies immediately gives me the "doomgloomdeath" feeling that this transaction might not end how I expected it to.

So I'm wondering if I should just make a post if within another week or so I still haven't gotten a response without sending them another message, or should I send one more message and this time say that I need to get a response about this situation or I'm going to AB?

I've always wondered if such artists deserve posts of their own if you have to go to such extremes to get them to contact/work with you to completion, or if it counts as them still being a trustworthy artist to respond to the threat. I've seen this get positive results in the past, but it personally makes me uncomfortable to have to flex the threatening arm like that. I understand the point of view that if it gets the results its a good tool, but at the same time I can't help but feel as if that allows other commissioners to sign up for something they aren't expecting by not mentioning those artists need to be given harsh incentive to finish the task. I do know that it is partially a case by case basis, as if something is just wrong with the drawing and you don't want to say so you shouldn't make a post about them since that falls back on you the commissioner for not speaking up, so in particular should you use it as a threat to get them to communicate with you?

As it stands now I'm just really unsure as to what is going on on their end. The piece is already finished and has been for some time (they even sent me a picture and a low res scan of it), so I'm wondering if maybe it was damaged or lost and they just feel embarrassed to say so or feels its not worth their time anymore? I'm really not sure. Since I have a decent scan of it, I was thinking of maybe just asking to get a larger res file if they had one and just a partial refund for not getting the physical piece, but that would include basically assuming it is indeed lost or damaged and still needs a response on their part. In my last message I briefly mentioned that if they did happen to have shipped it already and it simply got lost what they would like to do from here such as a partial refund etc to try and maybe make them more comfortable to admit it if something did happen to the piece. My last two messages were mainly just asking how frequent their mailing batches are, since I was told they forgot to send it in the last batch a few months ago, and never got an ETA on when it would be sent out. Nothing aggressive or pushy on my part I don't think, but I could be wrong?

The main question: Should artists who need to be threatened with AB to respond to you still get posts of their own/should threatening with AB be done at all beforehand when artists stop responding to you? Why or why not?

Comments

[insane-kangaroo.livejournal.com]

Here's a different view.

I believe a person should inform the artist they risk being posted on Artists_Beware for shady business practices and inform them you'll make an immediate posting if they do not proceed to complete the commission.

After the commission is done, create a write-up on the artist with your experiences.

Regarding the view, the threat would be deferred while the artist believes a posting would not be complete should he/she complete the work. While the artist may be in shock upon realizing the person posted afterwards, the end result would be others being warned about the individual's behavior.

[astraldescent.livejournal.com]

So you're saying to post them on A_B whether they do it or not? After telling them you wont do it if they complete the work?

How is that fair exactly? I mean... Yes it's bad that they'd need to be "threatened" to respond, but that just seems totally unfair to me.

If the person is really bad they should be posted on A_B regardless, that much is true, but I've had artists respond to me literally minutes after mentioning A_B, one time I even received the product I ordered in the mail after mentioning it, but it had been postmarked when they said they mailed it and it was simply the post offices fault after all- so it seems very unfair.

[insane-kangaroo.livejournal.com]

Business is business is business, they should know to not screw with people.

[spiffystuff.livejournal.com]

Lying is lying, and isn't a legit strategy.

There are probably times when a maker has been so bad they deserve an A_B post even if they do eventually finish their stuff (ie, aurasoul) but in that case the commissioner should never indicate they won't post.

[insane-kangaroo.livejournal.com]

What I said isn't lying, I was inferring to say the person should say a person wouldn't post immediately, I wouldn't infer an entry wouldn't be posted. ;)

[kriscynical.livejournal.com]

That would make me never take a commission from that person again. That seems just as shady as anything an artist would do to get listed on A_B in the first place. Either way, it isn't being upfront and honest with the person.

[squirrelly-kaku.livejournal.com]

This. A reputation goes both ways. To act shady like that would just result in a beware to the commissioner as well, I think.

[hazelfyrn.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry, but that is an absolutely terrible way to handle this sort of situation. You're taking advantage of: a) the implication that you won't post them (because that is how they're going to read it) if they finish your commission, and b.) an artist's fear of being posted on A_B (and having their reputation smeared) is not a reasonable solution, at all.

Like kriscynical said, it's something close to what a scam artist would do. I think you're doling out bad advice in this situation.

[skirtandzy.livejournal.com]

This pretty much defeats the purpose of the 'RESOLVED' tag.

You can tell them that if they do not do it in a timely manner, that you will make a write up.
But when you tell them, and they comply with you, it is the same as when the problem gets resolved.

Look at it this way:

If the problem is severe enough to warrant a post here, then you make the post. You do it, then try to resolve the problem with the artist.
If you can wait until after the problem has alread been resolved, then it must not have been that bad, that you took your time posting.

[purpule.livejournal.com]

So, threaten them they're at risk of being posted here, which is something you and they consider a negative thing, and then do it anyway regardless of whether the commission went smoothly after that?

Well, you've certainly put me off working with you in the future (then again, I think I've enough good business practise to not end up here regardless)
That's NOT what AB is for, if there isn't a beware to post, don't post anything?

[taasla.livejournal.com]

I am curious to this as well. I've only had to use this tactic twice, and both times I was being actively ignored with no communication and the art being owed to me for 6+ months.

I titled my notes with "Last contact" and the body was somewhere along the lines of "This is my last attempt to get in contact with you over (insert art owed) before I take this matter to artists_beware on Livejournal."

The first time was with Venigsun (whom has already been posted here), and she responded to me in MINUTES after being ignored for weeks. The second time is with someone who owes me an art trade and just disappeared off of FA. She also responded to me in a couple of days.

I don't like having to do this as it does make it feel like a threat, and then in the end no one will know about their behavior.

[sigilgoat.livejournal.com]

While I also get nervous about the idea of threatening people, I feel like this phrase is a decent one to use. It's letting the artist know that you are sincerely trying to figure out what's going on, and that you are willing to take steps if nothing is done.

I would add on an ultimatum like "This is my last attempt to get in contact with you over (insert art owed). If I do not receive a response by (a week from today) I will take this matter to artists_beware on LiveJournal."

[obsidianwolfess.livejournal.com]

Gonna have to "THIS" you. Well phrased. :3

[sbneko.livejournal.com]

When you say they disappeared, was there no updates, submissions, journals, favs at all?

I'm in the same boat. I did a trade with someone and have tried to get in contact with no luck and they look like they haven't been on at all. It's been a year now that I did my half.

[taasla.livejournal.com]

Oh, no they were uploading and faving things, but as far as I know they weren't commenting on -anything-. It was very strange.

[marus-puppy.livejournal.com]

I'm actually doing the same thing right now, but that's because I stopped actively going on FA/DA for several months and I have a backlog of several thousand submissions. Rather than commenting on everything I look at, journal and submission-wise, I just fave and submit and roll.

[kriscynical.livejournal.com]

That really isn't all that different from telling a business you'll report them to the Better Business Bureau or Angie's List. I think that's completely fair and a good warning because really if you've been wronged, what other choice do you have?

[aerospiritual.livejournal.com]

I think this is probably the best way to go about doing it. no one likes having to make a post about someone, but. sometimes you just have to do what you have to do[within reason] to ensure that a deadbeat starts picking up their end.

and it's pretty effective.

[jurann.livejournal.com]

Personally I think if they're not pulling their weight then a threat of making an A_B post is completely justified and warranted. If nothing else, it relates to them the gravity of your seriousness and concern about how things are going. I also do not believe that making such a threat should be done lightly or idly - you should be absolutely certain that lines have been crossed and that things are ALREADY in a state of being A_B post-worthy. To me making the threat is a chance for redemption and it WORKS 90% of the time that I've seen in getting results - but please be honorable on your own side in not writing them up after the fact if the threat was the last little oomph needed to get your results. Being a good sport works both ways and writing someone up even after they've delivered goes to show how unsportsmanlike/untrustworthy you are yourself!

[puritikoneko.livejournal.com]

This, all the way.

[spiffystuff.livejournal.com]

I think it depends a bit... I think it's only proper to give a maker notice that you are getting unhappy before you take things public. You don't have to threaten an AB post specifically, but if all your emails say "no prob take your time" (for example, don't know what you've actually told them) or "no rush but can you give me an update when you're able" and then suddenly there's an A_B post about how tardy the maker is, it looks discordant. Sure an artist shouldn't take advantage of patient customers but people are human and may just lose track of things, it only seems right to at least give a head's up.

And yeah you can threaten an A_B post with an unscrupulous maker for whom that might be the only motivation, but be careful not to promise to keep things secret if they do come through. (you don't have to make the post, but if someone else does you'd probably want to be able to share your experience, etc)

[talakestreal.livejournal.com]

I recently did that to a person that owed me an art trade. i told them that if they continued to ignore me, I would post them on Artist Beware. Lo and Behold...two days later, excellent contact, an apology, and the owed art, and we're actually cool now, which is wonderful.

[otherscape.livejournal.com]

I think the poster should say "Due to you [insert problem here], I will be making a post about this to Artist's Beware." If the offender does try to solve the problem afterward, that's great. But the poster is also in the right to post since they made a firm declaration that they would post, regardless if the offender did or will do anything to solve it or not. And if the offender got the impression that it was a just a threat to get them to do something, then that isn't the poster's problem.

But if they had said "Due to you [insert problem here], I will be making a post about this to Artist's Beware, unless...", then that would be a different story.

[nijipie.livejournal.com]

This.
I completely read it as in trying to get something out of the other person by threatening them with an AB post. It's one thing to make a person realize that their actions warrant a post here, and another to just try to shake them up by dangling it over their heads.

[taasla.livejournal.com]

I really, really like this. Hopefully I'll never have to do this again, but if I do, I will.

[shukivengeance.livejournal.com]

I think it's a case by case thing. While it may seem unfair to write someone up after you mention A_B and it's the poke they need in order to deliver the work, if the overall transaction was THAT bad it could still be beware-worthy and others may appreciate the warning.

A_B is not a bargaining chip, and that is why deleting of posts is not allowed. I much prefer to have it thought of as a resource.

[dinogrrl.livejournal.com]

This, pretty much. If it takes being 'threatened' with a post here to get someone to do work they've been payed to do (or to get them to pay money owed), then imho they probably need to be posted here anyway to warn others about their business practices.

[hellfire99x.livejournal.com]

This is how I feel, too. I'd probably warn them in the "Last contact" e-mail that an Artists_Beware post is being prepared about them, but their actions within the next 24-48 hours can still affect the contents of the Beware. (i.e.: Would the artist prefer the Beware to go up as "unresolved", or would they prefer it goes up "resolved" with information about how they took charge to rectify the situation once notified? Neither are good, but one is a little bit better.)

[suzaku-ou.livejournal.com]

I don't know if my comment belongs here, but I thought that I'd let you know my opinion on this, too.

I agree with some of the members here on warning an artist before you post about them. I was unlucky enough to not receive any word of the commissioner posting about me, even though I read her note a day after she sent it and replied to it the next with a WIP without even knowing about her post here.

It was, like I've reiterated in my post before, a really bad experience on both our parts and I still have lingering negative feelings about the entire ordeal.

I was wrong for not communicating with her properly for months while I was in school and also for not solving the problem quickly and offering her a small refund. But we reached an agreement after that and she approved of me drawing her another OC's lineart and sadly, I was terribly unorganized due to school/life and that's how the problem escalated; although, I did not ignore her final note (or any of them, I just forgot to reply). It just took me a day to read and another day to properly respond to her with a WIP.

Unfortunately, she ignored my dA note and screen-capped the later LJ pm instead and didn't update anything after that--no WIPs or new notes, letting other members here attack my business practices and reputation (even though it is justified, but she should have at least updated her post to RESOLVED when I gave her commission and extras).

She just left the post as it was even a month or two after the situation should have been resolved.

So to put it simply: If an artist does not reply to you for some time, say a couple of months, they might be busy or stressed and it'd be good to give them a reminder every other week or so. However, if it gets out of hand, you might want to warn them beforehand in the subject heading. I wasn't threatened directly, but the commissioner lost my trust when she posted about me and withheld current information to the public. I don't think it's anything any commissioner should do without an artist's knowledge.

And for an artist like me who was new to the freelance business, it was already shocking to receive any public complaint (or any complaint at all from a commissioner) since I've already dealt with 10/11 really good clients. Being posted here made me re-evaluate the way I would conduct business and gave me a reason to seek advice on it, also.

I apologize if this was really long-winded. I just wanted to type out my experience so that you would have a better understanding of the other side.

Thank you for taking your time to read this :)

[stormslegacy.livejournal.com]

I guess the relevant question is: is A_B a place to resolve problems or to review transactions?

I've always thought of it in the latter category and didn't think having a resolved problem should prevent one from posting. Sometimes things are resolved but poorly. If it takes threats for the problem to be fixed it's often a chronic issue.

[ocelotish]

I think unfortunately it falls inbetween. From what I've seen it's for bewares - i.e. really bad behavior, never work with this person again. It's not used so much for "warnings" the kind of review where you wouldn't recommend them, but the transaction was completed, just not quite as you'd like. Now of course that means that a transaction goes really badly, even if it's completed it does belong here, but usually if it's just needing to stay on top of the artist it doesn't.

[mr-cullen.livejournal.com]

It really depends on the situation I guess. But I'd say A-B as an ultimatum. I really don't like IK's idea of posting people on here anyways after the finish the work for you just because they were late or whatever for it 8T THat's kinda lame and super shady 8T