Artist - Juindalo

[fetalstar.livejournal.com]

WHO:Juindalo

WHERE: http://www.furaffinity.net/user/juindalo/

WHAT: Tracing.

PROOF: http://www.furaffinity.net/view/6527410 (NSFW) , four poses traced from http://www.posemaniacs.com/archives/1566 , http://www.posemaniacs.com/archives/374 , http://www.posemaniacs.com/archives/174 , and http://www.posemaniacs.com/archives/66
And here is an overlay: http://www.star-soup.com/images/etc/juindalo-overlay.png
(NSFW)

EXPLAIN:
Just to be clear, I didn't commission him or anything. I just found him through the favorites of other people who had been watching me.
I saw this image: http://www.furaffinity.net/view/6527410 (NSFW) and noticed that pose #3 was vaguely familiar. So I looked on my favorite reference website, and there it was.
Posemaniacs is an amazing art reference website filled with all sorts of poses from many angles. And you can click-drag across each pose to rotate it. I use it frequently to reference some poses/angles, or to get some inspiration if I have none. It's an awesome tool.

But this guy isn't just referencing, he's straight-up tracing. As you can see from the overlay, #2-4 are traces. #5 has some changes, so it's not completely a trace. I don't recognize pose #1, so it's possible that he did it himself.

I poked around in his gallery, and nothing else really stuck out for me, but I kind of have the mentality of if someone has one traced image in their gallery, it's possible that there may be more. But, a good portion of it is porn, and good luck trying to find those specific pictures. XD

I wasn't sure if this would be better here, or in art_theft. But I figure that because he's making money off of these, it might do better here.

Comments

[neolucky.livejournal.com]

I really really wish people would stop using wing-it as a catch all phrase for commissions...=| It's meant to be art done from a reference from the ground up, cheaply, without any input. This is not a wing-it, and they're simply tracing the darn poses from a learning site. That really defeats the purpose of using reference to learn anatomy, cripes.

[obsidianwolfess.livejournal.com]

He probably traced the first pose from some porn film/image. I doubt he could come up with it on his own if he almost perfectly traced the other three and altered a fourth. :\

[obsidianwolfess.livejournal.com]

Oh btw, might want to add that the images are NSFW. Not a problem for me, but some people do prefer the heads up!

[fetalstar.livejournal.com]

Oh, oops! Yeah, I totally didn't even think about that. XD

I added the NSFW to his stuff, but would it be necessary for the models, since they're just muscle?

[obsidianwolfess.livejournal.com]

Nah I don't think you need it for the models. :3

[taasla.livejournal.com]

Oh wow, they're not even eyeballed or loosely reffed, they're just plain traced.

[spiffystuff.livejournal.com]

Wow, posemaniacs looks like a pretty awesome site!

I do have one question - do you have any idea what kind of distribution rights posemaniacs publishes under? I ask because it looks like it could be the sort of place that allows public domain / any use. I just don't know, I looked and couldn't find any copyright info.

Though of course ethically the artist should let people KNOW the commission their buying is from a traced pose, but technically not wrong/illegal if the images are free license.

[fetalstar.livejournal.com]

I actually have no idea about their distribution rights. The only thing they really mention is how it's for students and artists who want to practice drawing figures.

I know it wouldn't technically be illegal if it's free license, but it's really bad form to just straight-up trace something if people are paying for it.

I know there's already a huge discussion going on about tracing and stuff, so I'll just leave it at that. XD

[sigilgoat.livejournal.com]

Thank you fetalstar! I linked spiffystuff to that entry below c:

[sigilgoat.livejournal.com]

All conversation about the ethics behind tracing is limited to this entry: http://artists-beware.livejournal.com/530639.html

Please refrain from speaking about that topic outside the designated entry! Thank you! c:

[spiffystuff.livejournal.com]

That post means we are not allowed to try to discriminate between illegal use and legal use in a beware that is solely about tracing?

[sigilgoat.livejournal.com]

"Though of course ethically the artist should let people KNOW the commission their buying is from a traced pose, but technically not wrong/illegal if the images are free license."

That's what I'm referring to, in particular! c:

[spiffystuff.livejournal.com]

Oh! OK, sorry, thought you mean the whole thing :X

FWIW I only put that in there because I skimmed that post as a nod to that that's most people seemed to be saying. XD Shoulda thought more about that I guess.

[sigilgoat.livejournal.com]

I should have also specified, as it did sound like I was referencing your WHOLE comment! I apologize too!

*new mod alert!!*

No worries! It's a new rule, so it'll take a little bit for people to get adjusted c:

[taasla.livejournal.com]

Posemaniacs is a nice site, but just be aware that the bodies there are highly idealized. It's good for figuring out weird poses. Not so good to learn anatomy long-term.

http://www.pixelovely.com/gesture/figuredrawing.php

I've been using that to practice as it gives images of real people so you can get a variety of different body types. :3

[spiffystuff.livejournal.com]

Thanks! That looks like a good link too :B

Ha ha, yeah, I know the posemaniacs anatomy isn't what most people look like, just like the ability to make a pose and rotate it all around :B

[sbneko.livejournal.com]

Do you know if they allow making a profit by using those references?

It gave me a great commission idea where you can get a cheap picture. the pose would be random, whatever comes up and they'd get the picture I do in the time I chose to go with. Of course, I'd make sure everyone knows that I'd be heavily referencing.

[taasla.livejournal.com]

Not that I know of! You can definitely see about emailing them. I've got all of the practice sessions I've done from there saved, but none of them have been used on commissions. :x

[thaily.livejournal.com]

Le bookmark.

[starcharmer.livejournal.com]

I had seen and used that site before, but I haven't been able to find it since! Thank you for linking it<3

[rhianna-muir.livejournal.com]

There is no mention on the site (that I can find) about distribution rights, but they do have a donate button. My suggestion would be to donate maybe a dollar for every commission you sell based on a pose. That way it helps them keep the site up, thereby giving you a supply of references.

[spiffystuff.livejournal.com]

That would be a good idea for Juindalo. I don't trace, myself, and while the site looks good for trying to figure out a few tricky angles, that's mostly for my personal comic work.

[kerstin-orion.livejournal.com]

Contacted Posemaniacs and they're fine with any use, including commercial, as long as one isn't reselling images straight from the site. (Actual wording from them in my comment below.)

[spiffystuff.livejournal.com]

Well! Not illegal then, as far as the proven traces go. Nice work!

[thaily.livejournal.com]

I dunno about #5, but 2, 3 and 4 are shameless :C

[kerstin-orion.livejournal.com]

I asked through the contact email on the Posemaniacs website:

"Are Posemaniacs poses free to use for any purpose, including ones that make money, or is it only for learning and practice?"

They replied:

"Hi
I don't care except reselling original material ;-)"

So Posemaniacs are free license, but you can't sell screencaps or whatnot of the actual images on the site.

Still rather lousy to use the site and not cite your source. That still leaves the other quite-probably-traced image, though I myself don't feel like trying to figure out where it came from! XD

[fetalstar.livejournal.com]

I think it's more lousy that he just traced them. XD

But that's a whole other can of worms.

[sbneko.livejournal.com]

Curious! Do you happen to know if http://www.pixelovely.com/gesture/figuredrawing.php is the same? I couldn't find info for them either and did email them, but nothing heard yet.

[kerstin-orion.livejournal.com]

I sure don't, but let me know what you find out; you never know when it might crop up 'round here.

[sbneko.livejournal.com]

Sure thing! Just by browsing, it does LOOK like it's the same, but I wanted to be sure it was ok before I start taking commissions based on heavily referencing they're images.

[sbneko.livejournal.com]

Got a reply!

"Hi ____,

Thank you so much for double checking, that is very conscientious of you. The photographers who contributed their photos to the gesture drawing tool only gave me the right to use those photos in the tool. I do not have the right to offer anyone else reproduction rights -- they aren't my photos, after all.

If you need legal references, I know of one stock artist who offers all of the photos on this deviantart account http://mjranum-stock.deviantart.com/ freely for artists to use as references for anything. You might try looking there. :)"

Sounds like basically, you can use the references to get better at art but to not use it to make a profit off of, at least when it comes to heavily referencing anyways.

Proof Of Not Being Traced

[juindalo.livejournal.com]

I Am just finding this post about me, unfortunately it seems a little late. I would like to clear up the issue of weather or not I traced the images form www.posemaniacs.com

The answer is no I did not. I am a 3D graphics artist and all pose models used in my artwork is my own. Here is a link to the source file with my on models superimposed the exact same way it was done for the posemaniacs one.

http://www.furaffinity.net/view/6856780/

I made these models myself, and I can see how there would be some confusion in that they are almost exactly the same. It was most likely due to have just found posemaniacs and browsing through their gallery of poses and getting ideas for some of my own. So when doing the poses for this "wing it" sale, they ere fresh in my mind.
I 100% agree that tracing is NOT a good thing, even for practice in that it creates situations here someone is so used to tracing they rely on it too heavily and then you get into situations where the person/artist whatever begins to make money off of things they have traced/stolen.
I hope this clears everything up, and I would have appreciated someone contacting me to ask me about this. There is a model in my scraps on FA for free use for people to trace, color do whatever they want with (http://www.furaffinity.net/view/2446675/) and that should have, in my opinion been taken into account that because I am a 3D artist I create my own 3D models to work off of. Some people may not like that, but I created the models I use so there is really no need for me to use another site's models.
I would really appreciate this post being updated as being resolved if you are satisfied with the proof I have shown. I have also e-mailed and noted the moderators to have this resolved as it is obviously hurting my business.

If you have any other questions or concerns please ask, and I ill be happy to provide any further information that may be needed to show that I did not trace/steal form posemaniacs.com.

Re: Proof Of Not Being Traced

[kerstin-orion.livejournal.com]

I personally feel your linework fits much more closely with the Posemaniacs models than your own, including some anatomical anomalies that are not in the models you made.

As noted in a previous comment, I emailed the owner of Posemaniacs with a general question, and they said they allow use of art derived from their models for any purposes, including commercial. The only restriction is people may not take/use the 3D models, themselves.

The post can't be removed due to our community rules. I can, however, mark the post as resolved, since it is about tracing from legitimate sources.

Re: Proof Of Not Being Traced

[fetalstar.livejournal.com]

Your overlay you linked doesn't explain why 2-4 line up PERFECTLY: http://www.star-soup.com/images/etc/juindalo-overlay.png

There's nothing wrong with using your pose-able doll models that you created.
It's just kind of in bad taste to completely trace models from another website without at least citing your sources. Especially for something people paid for. :\

Sorry for this post hurting your business, but it's kind of one of those situations in which you've brought it upon yourself. :\

Anyways, I know a mod has marked this as resolved, so I'm not trying to start a big argument or anything. I just hope that maybe you can see this as a learning experience.