Commissioner: Wyraachur

[vexinglyyours.livejournal.com]

You know, the funny thing is, I was going to come to A_B for advice on this when this was first going on. I wish I had, because I do feel like some stuff could have been handled differently. v_v

WHO: Wyraachur

WHERE: Wyraachur on FA, Werechu on DA

WHAT: $40 ($35 original price + extra character fees) Summer Commission Package

WHEN: It started around June, but business ended in... August, I believe, but things boiled to a head just tonight.

PROOF: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vHmb71oaNO1D7V6v4-kxpb9umw3F029KReop7ReOgxU/edit?hl=en_US

Original payment on June 15: http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/dacookiechicken/Screenshot2011-12-23at82041PM.png

Partial refund on Aug 26: http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/dacookiechicken/Screenshot2011-12-23at82115PM.png

EXPLAIN: Back in June, I started a commission package deal that people pretty much... jumped at. Like, I'm still working on packages now, but that's not the point! Here's the original package deal for the price referencing: http://www.furaffinity.net/view/5890028/

Wyraach asked for a Gold Package, as it says in the Google Doc I linked above. Things were going okay initially, but I didn't know how to take it when he started to ask if I RPed or not. I do RP, but not with any old person, and I wasn't interested in RPing with someone I had just met and had that displayed in bold, pink letters on my FA page. But I felt too nice to refuse and did sort of think that it'd be nice to try to make a friend and play with someone out of my circle.

But when he started to show me porn commissions of his characters, I was immediately turned off. I didn't like that, but I still tried to be nice. I didn't want to seem rude to my customers for whatever reason...

I did work on his pieces as much as I could, but I honestly had a bad taste in my mouth from thinking about when he was showing me those commissions. Like, I didn't understand how you could show someone you barely knew pics like that. I ended up blocking him on AIM, and a few months later, I ended up refunding him. I didn't complete his entire package - just a single flat color image and three icons from it. I honestly was interested in finishing his stuff - TF is something new to me in terms of drawing it and I was interested in trying it out for the first time, but I just wanted to wash my hands of him. I hope that doesn't sound stupid. :(

I emailed him with this before cutting off all business:
Hello,

Due to recent circumstances that I am not willing to discuss, I'd like to partially refund you. I have finished some things from your package, three icons and a flat color image, which would be $12.50, so you'll receive $27.50 as a refund. I'll send them and the money shortly. My apologies for cutting business short.

I felt the refunding price was reasonable for how much work was done, but I'd also like someone else's opinion on this, please. But I didn't refund him until I got a proper response from him (which I sadly deleted).

So after I refunded him, I blocked him on FA, because I was disinterested in hearing from him again.

Tonight, one of my friends told me that she got a note from him, saying:
In reguards to your journal, I'd be rather skeptical about Vexinglyours - she burned me rather badly on a commission not too long ago - partially refunded me an incorrect amount as the picture she 'claimed' to have finished was only half done.

Incorrect? I felt my refunding price was very fair for how much was done, and if it wasn't, he was allowed to contest that and I would have had no problem with it, and though I don't have his emails anymore, I know for a fact that he didn't argue against it.

I sent him a note saying:

**** told me that you sent a note concerning me. She's a close friend of mine. I've known her for nine years. I don't appreciate this.

Furthermore, the refund I sent you was based on how much was COMPLETED from the package. I know I didn't add the tail shot to the sergal character's reference, but that wasn't included in the package deal anyway and was offered for free, to be generous.

I didn't want to continue the commission because I felt uncomfortable when you were trying to RP with me and show me all of your porn commissions of your characters. It honestly bothered me, but I'm too nice to say no, and I totally admit that I'm sorry for leading you on like that, but I had had enough and thinking about working on your stuff left a bad taste in my mouth. :(

The original payment was $40. And I even ASKED you if the amount I was refunding ($27.50) WAS FAIR. You said 'yes'. And it was fair, but even if it WASN'T I would have given you what you felt was fair. From what was completed - if I remember correctly was three icons and a single flat color.

I will be posting a bulletin about you on Artists Beware, because this is upsetting behavior.

I'm aware that he's allowed to tell others he's had "bad" business with me, but it's the fact that he didn't choose to email me, that he chose to say I "burned" him when I was being very fair. This could have been resolved easily on his part, but I do blame my inability to say no as well.

I also welcome advice on this, because I WANT it. I want to avoid a situation like this again, if possible.

Comments

[oceandezignz.livejournal.com]

Just as a note, LJ is HTML based rather than UBB code based- so those [IMG] tags don't work here. Just turn them into regular links!

[everainsley]

It also appears they're using the rich text editor, which often breaks the formatting of pasted text, so the html coding won't work there. Formatting has to be done with the buttons avaliable on that tab. (This also means a good portion of this post is hard to read for me, as I use a dark journal layout, and the style=mine option for viewing comment pages since the new comment pages make me physically ill.)

[vexinglyyours.livejournal.com]

Oh gosh! So sorry! I'm not used to making LJ posts xD I'll try to fix it. Hope I don't butcher anything.

[latilombax.livejournal.com]

I remember Werechu. I've heard he's got quite a bad reputation for begging people for free art. Heck, he's even ungrateful with the pic he received in a Secret Santa exchange 5 years ago

[vexinglyyours.livejournal.com]

I've known about his rep before I worked with him, but I'd only really known that he got upset over people drawing parody art of his character and Cynder from Spyro. I didn't know about his rep as far as receiving art was concerned, but I honestly wish I had.

[foxhack.livejournal.com]

Yikes, did LJ's recent "upgrade" mess up the post for anyone else?

[latilombax.livejournal.com]

I don't think so

[megamon-blue.livejournal.com]

I don't know if we're seeing the same problem, but I keep seeing random bits of different background color(white, black, blue, gray) behind the text on a lot of beware posts now. I hope its a glitch and not intentional, because it's very annoying.

[mariechan.livejournal.com]

I can relate to the roleplay bit. More specifically I have a peeve when people roleplay in comments, or during chat when it's not a roleplay, usually if I don't know them well enough. I think it was inappropriate for him to send him the porn commissions.

You definitely need to be assertive next time in the fact that what you are doing is strictly a business transaction and you may not feel comfortable if it goes anywhere beyond that. If it's rp just say, "thanks but I'm not comfortable with it" and if you're shown porn.. well, I don't know what to say other than to politely tell them to never do that again. You may even want a disclaimer that says you are uncomfortable with people trying to get a little personal with you.

You deserve the dignity and respect to not have that happen to you. I think it perhaps could have been handled better but I do think that when we're uncomfortable we have a hard time making the right choices and I think given the circumstances that you did act your best and explained why the behavior is inappropriate and puts you off.

[cpro2001.livejournal.com]

Maybe add a clause stating that character reference art needs to be work-safe, since commissioners sending you X rated images makes you uncomfortable? I looked at your TOS (https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1SwB4Pk2eE9nGuDfwNhMclrOxBAlDNSM7Pi8KVwQF2WU) and didn't see any rules like that.

[vexinglyyours.livejournal.com]

Oh! I do porn commissions sometimes and don't mind receiving NSFW stuff in the case of refs, but he was just showing me during a straight up casual encounter. That's what really made me uncomfortable. :c

[tizzrah.livejournal.com]

Why was he showing you X-rated commissions of his characters? Were they reference photos for the commissions, or was he just showing off when you agreed to RP with him? Your initial explanation is unclear on this.

If they were for reference, I personally think that you overreacted and jumped the gun on refunding him. As cpro2001 pointed out, your TOS says nothing about this, and if he believed that X-rated commissions were the best references for his characters, I see nothing wrong with using them.

However, if he was just showing off, you should have just said to him that he was making you uncomfortable and left it at that. I don't really understand why you dropped him like a bad habit without even trying to explain to him that you didn't appreciate what he was doing. Business is business, and if you're uncomfortable, it's on YOU to say so. You can't expect people to just know what makes you uncomfortable and what doesn't.

I don't know, I don't think I have enough details to make a full-on judgment call, but I think you both could have handled the situation better.

[vexinglyyours.livejournal.com]

My bad - he was showing me after he mentioned RP. I would have been fine if he was showing me for the purposes of references.

And I do agree that I should have told him I was uncomfortable with it. Thank you. Though, I have a question. If I amend something to my TOS saying something along the lines of "I'd prefer not to make a personal relationship out of this transaction", would this sound off-putting as a customer to you? I'm a very shy person and don't like making new friends/like staying in my friendship circle. I'm just plain not interested in speaking to customers on a straight up personal level.

[hezzywags.livejournal.com]

Blargh! I hate experiences like these. I'd definitely put something in your TOS stating that you would like to keep things work safe and on a strictly-business level. I can't stand signing onto AIM or Steam and being bombarded with murry purry IMs. :I

[stormslegacy.livejournal.com]

In some cases--it's much better to just offer a full refund when you are the one cancelling a transaction. Even if you are in the right, it removes any question of what happened. At that amount, it's worth it to save the headache. When a customer cancels the transaction then partial refunds are in order. It's always yor call though.

Did you at any point tell him that he was making you uncomfortable? he definitely crossed a line, so (imho) you'd still be in the right but you may find some contest that point.

[vexinglyyours.livejournal.com]

I didn't - I honestly wish I had told him though. This might have gone better if I had. v_v

But refund him fully? He commissioned a package deal, so he would have gotten 10 pieces of work if the whole thing was done, but I only finished 4 before I cut him loose. So should I have fully refunded him, regarded of what had been completed?

[mialattia.livejournal.com]

There are many ways to avoid this situation with most people, and that's being a hardass with a nice veneer. I don't mean to sound cold, but these are only business transactions, and anything outside of that (roleplay, AIM chat, etc) should be left until AFTER the transaction is complete. I, for one, always dislike the feeling of having a customer try and make us 'friends' when we are in a business relationship. It feels too much like they want something additional from me.

So, don't add something to feel generous, or if you DO, for the love of art, don't SAY that especially if you're refunding them. A response like, "the detail view of the tail was not included in the original price, but the overall package deal, so $xx does in fact cover the view I made for you."

I can't help but write a paragraph or two on these matters, so please excuse me, but you can SIGNIFICANTLY reduce your discomfort if you deal with these people as CUSTOMERS. Don't use AIM. Don't use IRC chat. Use notes or e-mail, something you can refer back to, and something that doesn't let them just... chat with you. I have cut out ALL creepers so far simply by doing this. If you're 'too nice', use a medium that makes it difficult for small-talk. And don't worry about hurting these people's feelings-- would you feel bad for telling a guy to STOP or your commission is VOID in real life if some dude suddenly handed you a leaflet of porn? But again, chatting breeds this behavior. It's too casual.

[everainsley]

" Don't use AIM. Don't use IRC chat. Use notes or e-mail, something you can refer back to, and something that doesn't let them just... chat with you."

Also, a thousand times this. I only use email for commission information. Chat logs get lost, notes can be unreliable, so I have a commission email account now.

[everainsley]

For future reference: just because you have a business relationship with someone, you do not then have to have a personal one with them. If they get offended of you saying, in a firm but polite manner, "No, I am not comfortable RP-ing with you." then that's on them. If you're even just incomfortable with the subject matter, you -can- say no. How they react is, again, on them and no one will hold it against you if you do so in that firm but polite manner.

If you don't have a "No NSFW materials" in your TOS, put it there if he was showing you this for character reference. It seems like common sense to warn people, but common sense is not common, and I had to deal with the same from a customer earlier this year, but I had not fully implemented my ToS yet, so it was on me.

[vexinglyyours.livejournal.com]

I do porn commissions from time to time, but I was uncomfortable that he was showing me his porn outside of a business transaction. I'm fine if you're showing me for the purpose of commissioning, but just straight up showing porn casually to someone you just met... The concept of that is kinda astounding. :(

[mialattia.livejournal.com]

To add, in this situation, technically speaking you are right to refund only partially, but you need to make a TOS that states that you can CANCEL AT ANY TIME and do this, to cover your ass. If you do not have that TOS right now, and on top of that never took initiative to either tell him his commission was in danger or to knock it off, I understand that he feels ripped off. He sounds like nobody I'd want to do business with, but if he had kept up that behavior even after you told him not to, THEN it would have been a clear-cut cancel.

I don't tolerate inappropriate behavior, but they are still a customer that needs to be treated with professional courtesy.

[vexinglyyours.livejournal.com]

I do have that in my TOS, but I think it was amended after this happened. I'll definitely keep that in mind. I didn't want to feel like I was hurting his feelings by declining RP, but it probably would have been better to in the long run. Thanks for the advice, very appreciated! :3

[vexinglyyours.livejournal.com]

Okay, I ended up putting the massive glob of info under the cut. I think it worked? Sorry, I'm not really an LJ expert. xP

[everainsley]

Yes, your cut worked. :) Thank you.

[thaily.livejournal.com]

It's very important to keep business and pleasure separated. It can be hard when doing business with friends, but in cases like this, the moment a customer asks for things like RP or to an extent even casual conversation, just cut it off "Sorry, can't talk now! Just send me an e-mail if it's about the commission and I'll get back to you ASAP!"
Because if you don't, this happens. Furries especially are notoriously bad about personal boundaries and respecting that not everyone may want to see their porn >_>
I don't blame you for not wanting to see said porn, and had you kept your distance he might still have shown you, but I guess you learned the hard way that business is business. Don't feel too bad about it, it happens to a lot of people including myself years and years ago back when jeebus rode on dinosaurs *cough*. Just finish your business first, if you still want to be friends or roleplay after, you have all the time in the world.

On another note, I don't see your Terms of Service anywhere. You're going to want to write those and include your refund policies (can give a partial refund anytime at your discretion).

You did the right thing in posting here, if anyone asks about it because he's badmouthing you, just show them this post. Don't be tempted to engage them in "discussion".

[shukivengeance.livejournal.com]

While the behaviour that led you to cancel the commission is legitimately beware-worthy, posting it now feels kind of... grudgey to me?

It's a shame that you don't still have proof that he agreed to the refund amount because otherwise it's a 'your word against his' situation. (Not calling anyone a liar here, just stating a fact.) In future it would be a good idea to save all exchanges, especially in transactions where things have started to get a bit messy.

Other than that, it's rather unfair to send someone messages after having blocked them. If you want to block someone to cut the ties then fine, but don't force one-sided correspondence on someone who cannot respond. Similarly "I'm aware that he's allowed to tell others he's had "bad" business with me, but it's the fact that he didn't choose to email me.." If he had, would you have welcomed it? When you block someone from contacting you that is not an invitation to get in touch via other means. It is a clear message saying "leave me alone" and I can't imagine anyone not considering it harassment.

That said, I'm not disputing the validity of the beware, simply that this could have been handled better.

[latilombax.livejournal.com]

^this

[razzek.livejournal.com]

Having worked with Werechu in the past, my very first mental response to this was "Wow, he actually paid for art?". All that aside, I do think you were completely in the right on all of this and that he's being pretty immature about how things turned out (though that, alas, does not surprise me either).

[vexinglyyours.livejournal.com]

Oh geez, has he been known to rip people off? I know he had/has an ED page, but it's been years since I've been to ED. If I had known he had so much of a bad rep that he didn't pay for work, I don't think I would have even considered giving him a chance. It didn't help that he had attempted to haggle with my already cheap package deal.

[taasla.livejournal.com]

I think everyone has covered some very valid points. I did want to bring up that it would be a good idea to archive any and all commission correspondence from email. (And as said above, avoid IM clients entirely to talk about commissions.) If your email doesn't have archiving abilities, then it would be a good idea to switch to one that does. I personally have commission correspondence from almost two years ago, and find myself debating to ever delete any of them should anything come up.

[cyiakanami.livejournal.com]

Think I have to agree in a round about way with most the comments said before. I have found my self in those types of situations before and I'm usually very tolerant of people. But if something irks me that a current commissioner is doing towards me, I won't hesitate to let them know.

And while it's scary thinking that you blowing them off and then leaving you a bad review somewhere can happen, it's really just best to remove your self from uncomfortable situations as fast as you can. Leading on someone gives them an open window to keep pushing. And then you get the mass effect of furry drama.

I would go ahead and update your TOS if you haven't already, stating business is just that, business, and should be kept as so. And make sure to emphasize that people actually read your TOS. I can't tell you how many times someone has gone in to commission me and hasn't read any part of my tos and then I have to be the "bad guy" and remind them to look it over.

[blaze-ignitus.livejournal.com]

I think this is important to say right now: I did show this beware to the commissioner in question here, and did urge him to speak to vexinglyyours via note on FA calmly to try and sort this out. Earlier he told me that he and the artist came to an understanding and both apologized to each other for certain things that occurred on both sides; vexinglyyours for the failure to communicate with the commissioner, and the commissioner apologized for his statements. According to him she had said she'd contact a mod to inform them of a resolved status. I'll be sure to ask for screenshots as proof of their conversation.

[shukivengeance.livejournal.com]

Tagged as resolved by request of the OP.