[identity profile] arcticious.livejournal.com posting in [community profile] artists_beware
Hi there A_B, it has been a while since I last posted asking advice on taking commissions under the age of eighteen, and I just want to thank you all for your constructive and encouraging feedback! Since then I have talked it over with my parents and have made the decision to wait until I am eighteen, in which I can set up my own PayPal account, a new bank account, and will no longer have school to possibly cause troubles. Thank you so much for the input.

However, I had another question. I was recently browsing around the profiles of some highly popular artists who frequently take commissions, and noticed a few had very personal profiles... By this, I mean, swearing openly on their profile, slogans that could be taken as rude, and some that mentioned taking drugs/alcohol.
It got me thinking, what is the general opinion of these sorts of attitudes on a "professional" account? Is it unprofessional to feature swearing, alcohol/drug use or offhand attitudes on the same account you take commissions on? What do you feel when you see this sort of behaviour in a popular artist's profile, and does it turn you away from possibly commissioning them?
 
I imagined it being likened to a person swearing on shift in a job, however, online is very different, so I just wanted to know out of curiosity if that sort of behaviour effects your opinion of an artist's professionalism. 
Thank you in advance for any feedback!
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Date: 2012-04-09 01:47 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] killercacti.livejournal.com
i think it really depends on the artist and their clientele. i have commissioned friends i am close with that have unprofessional profiles, because i know the person behind it and i trust them. i can't say i'd approach an artist i didn't know anything about for a commission if they had a very unprofessional profile.

i think that if an artist is looking to do a high volume of commissions, as in art is their job, it's in their best interest to have a more professional-looking profile! that's just what i think, though. :)

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Date: 2012-04-09 01:47 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] techno4tomcats.livejournal.com
Personally, I try to be neutral and 'professional or at least work safe) on art galleries and keep any stupid stuff I do on my tumblr or twitter (or LJ under lock).
Some artists may try and be open with others on art communities. I think it mainly hinges on the audience who follows their art/and or commissions them and how comfortable an artist is expressing themselves and and not holding back on that. It may depend on subject (like adult?) matter too?

Date: 2012-04-09 01:50 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] techno4tomcats.livejournal.com
to clarify on your second point, I would not commission someone who displays unprofessional behaviour in galleries they maintain. I'm just not comfortable with it.

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Date: 2012-04-09 02:09 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fenrirs-child.livejournal.com
It's really all dependent on the individual and on which site. On my website, it's all professionalism and 'work safe'. On my FA, I see it as more of a personal account too, so I'm a little more lax with what I'm willing to say. On my LJ, I tend to friendslock my more personal posts. In the end, there is a person behind the art, and I'm secure enough with my fanbase to be mostly open with them.

Date: 2012-04-09 02:13 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] semisonicstar.livejournal.com
Swearing and whatnot I'd have no problem with. But I would never commission anyone who was openly hateful towards others - groups, individuals etc. That's where I draw the line. /twocents

Date: 2012-04-09 02:18 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dinogrrl.livejournal.com
I would expect someone posting a professional thing (ie, a journal entry in a gallery they get commissions from) to make their posting professional. Yes, I have stopped watching people who ask for commissions in one place but turn around and make nasty remarks with nasty language in another. You want to talk that way, keep it off your professional site. I don't want to see it. Makes me wonder if that's the kind of attitude I'll be dealing with for the entire commissioning process. Plus it's just not something I enjoy reading, or listening to IRL.

Exceptions are of course made if the nasty remarks are, say...sometimes people will post short stories to go with pictures they've drawn, and maybe a character in the picture would say things like that. I'm okay with that.

Date: 2012-04-09 02:26 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] zaulankris.livejournal.com
I think being professional has more to do with your work ethic than your personal interests. Artists are people too, and as long as they get the job done it's all good to me.

Ofc I'll draw the line if someone is being an unreasonable jerk or if I find out their interests are something I'm really uncomfortable with (but it's good that I know, because now I know who NOT to give money to).

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Date: 2012-04-09 02:29 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] magusmanx.livejournal.com
I think it depends. If it is a commission only account? Yes, I would expect a professional attitude. But if it's personal account? Goodness no. I don't have a commission only account, so those who desire to commission me would have to speak with me on my personal account, and I will admit I'm a casual swearer. I use the words often. If they don't like it, I always suggest they find someone else.

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Date: 2012-04-09 02:43 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] otherscape.livejournal.com
It really depends on what you mean by "rude". I lurk on CA.org (a place full of successful, professional artists) and the top dogs are, to a sensitive person, rude and cruel, but to someone with a thick skin, blunt and straightforward. And also extremely sarcastic. If that's what you mean, it's really up to you to determine that.

Though if I'm reading correctly, you're talking about people who are saying unnecessarily nasty things that have nothing to do with art because they believe they are holier-than-thou.

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Date: 2012-04-09 02:43 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] miryhis.livejournal.com
I've wondered about that, too. I don't say certain words, but I realize that people can be casual swearers. I don't really care if people curse. I'm willing to let the swearing slide if the person doesn't have that "don't give a crap" attitude. I've avoided people who don't swear but still have a bad attitude. It also depends on what they're saying, since some words can be considered to be worse than others. But overall, most swearing doesn't bother me, it's the attitude that matters.

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Date: 2012-04-09 02:51 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hazelfyrn.livejournal.com
I agree with a couple of posters--as [livejournal.com profile] zaulankris mentioned, I mainly focus on the work ethic and attitude of the artist. For places such as FurAffinity, I find it fine if artists are more casual about taking commissions.

I do believe, however, that when it comes to more controversial subjects (ie., race, abortions, etc.), it would do an artist well to stray from being confrontational about them. I don't post about politics on my FA because so many people have so many differing opinions on them. I wouldn't want to lose potential commissioners simply because we have opposing views.

Date: 2012-04-09 02:57 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nambroth.livejournal.com
I see this from a slightly different angle, perhaps; the majority of my income and commissions do not originate from FA/furry fandom, so I may be speaking with a bias but....

There is always the chance that a lack of professionalism both in conduct, but in language and open speech about possibly illegal or offensive things will lose you a customer, especially when posted in public and high profile places (such as an artist's profile on a gallery).

There is rarely (if ever?) the chance that omitting vulgarities and omitting mention of things such as possibly illegal activities will lose you a customer, in the same respect.

It is entirely possible to be yourself and to let customers and friends catch a glimpse of what you are like without spilling it all or overloading a profile with curse words. Again, this is with respect to an individual that hopes to take work on related to their art (folks that have no intention of doing so-- act however you'd like).

In light of this, it is in a working artist's best interests to yes.. be personable and an individual, but there is no harm in keeping the swearing (or, since you mention it specifically,) and drug mentions to a minimum.

I sort of think of my public online presence in the same way as when I was working customer service. I can cuss and act however I like in my home or more private journals etc, but when I am on the job I need to be polite (which still allows me to be myself and enjoy talking to folks). I think the point lost on a lot of people is that you can be tactful in public (when it is your job especially) and still be yourself; the two are not mutually exclusive. :)

I don't know if this helps or not, but best wishes with whatever you conclude!

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Date: 2012-04-09 03:04 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nakoothetauren.livejournal.com
This all makes me feel a little weird. Coming from Australia and my exactly location there swearing is like common place?
Like Its rather ingrained in many people I know to openly swear freely and such.
I am also not running a commission only profile. I just rather keep my stuff lumped together.
I state on my profile that I am Australian. But not so much the swearing thing. But is this kind of... for lack of a better word... Stereotypical behavior frowned upon?
I'll say now I don't swear when talking to commissioners and there drawings, just on my own stuff and in my own drawings.

In any case I don't think its going to stop me from using language I am more than use to. I just would like to know how it appears to others.

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Date: 2012-04-09 03:10 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] laini.livejournal.com
I think if it's someone who's taking $10-20 commissions on the side for a wee bit of cash that kind of thing doesn't bother me.
Though as others have said I'd expect a certain level of professionalism in the journals or whatever where they are trying to drum up business.

I don't think it makes too much difference if it's someone who does art for a living, but there's a bit of a difference for me.

But aside from really major things like being rude to customers and things along those lines there's not much that would make me unwilling to commission someone.
Quality and price are the main factors.

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Date: 2012-04-09 03:21 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wingsofjudas.livejournal.com
My take on it is yes, I'm personally put off and I wouldn't want to portray myself that way in turn. Even if I use drug references and whatever other "questionable" content occasionally in art, I feel like there's a difference between a creative work and myself as a person, be it a commissioned work I am producing of someone else's vision, a plot integral to a story/character, a personal piece, some sort of symbolism, it's just imagery and expression. I try to present myself online as I do in person, that's just my preoperative, and I just don't care for a lot of that stuff to be associated with me.

What really bothers me is the "too cool to care attitude" for obvious reasons and the glorification of drugs, even drinking in excess. I don't really care if people do drugs so long as they aren't hurting anyone, I've got no moral/ethical issues there. But it's completely obnoxious to brag about it and if I'm entering into a transaction with this person, I'm definitely setting the bar higher. That's just looking out for myself as a buyer. I also really wouldn't want residue or smells from illicit substances on any thing I own (or -any- smells/stuff for that matter, ever buy something stinky/dirty off eBay?).

It's funny you mention this whole scenario, it's always struck me as odd thing. I guess it's this sort of "rock star mentality", where there's distasteful/edgy/whatever behaviour and it seems cool to a certain type of people. That might make such artists more popular but I think ultimately they reap what they sow... One might be happier to filter them out by being boring and professional. ;D And if such an artist changes and goes more professional later, there's likely to still be some sort of record than could resurface and bite them in the ass. Hell, there's been stories here of artists who seemed very professional and got busted trashing commissioners on other parts of the internet. I would think it best to hold oneself to the same standard wherever they interact online. Some stuff, like relaxed language in a personal journal is one thing and no one's really going to care, but stuff like, say, hate speech/slurs, client/artist bashing, lying about emergency commissions, illegal activity, or what-have-you, is going to look bad.

Date: 2012-04-09 03:24 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kayla-la.livejournal.com
I don't expect everyone to never cuss or be silly on their accounts, but I will say that I avoid those who display attitudes of 'I'M A JERK/BITCH/ASSHOLE AND PROUD LOLS' or go on about how they're 'really nice but don't piss me off!!'. I don't want to do business with people like that as it tends to also leak into their business attitude.

I think people like being able to relate to who they're buying art from, but you don't want to come off aggressive, as I know at least I just won't bother risking having to deal with it.

Date: 2012-04-09 03:31 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] timelapsedecay.livejournal.com
I don't care, generally. Casual swearwords doesn't reflect back on the user in my opinion. What matters to me is how they actually interact with their customers. I swear in my journals because I swear in real life, but I make a point of NOT doing that when talking with a client.

Date: 2012-04-09 04:05 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] serious-mccoy.livejournal.com
Overly personal profiles kind of weird me out whether they're professional or not, tbh. A basic introduction is one thing- TMI is another. I've certainly chosen not to watch (and therefore would not commission) some people due to what was on their profile/journals/etc. Swearing isn't among those things that would bother me, though.

I don't worry too much about my profile since commissions aren't my main source of income (therefore it won't hurt me if a few people are driven off for whatever reason), but, if commissions were, I'd definitely treat it with the same degree of professionalism as I do my regular job. I don't treat art any differently from any other job- I put the same expectations on myself as would be placed on me by a boss elsewhere.

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Date: 2012-04-09 04:07 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] genkigami.livejournal.com
I have a very filthy mouth on my personal art accounts when I'm just screwing around, putting up personal pieces, or chatting with friends. So I don't judge anyone for harsh language, that would be pretty hypocritical. I would draw the line when people put up "I'm rude/honest/blunt/unprofessional, suck it <3" comments on their profile. There's being silly, then there's being nasty. By putting that on your profile, you're basically saying "WARNING: your commission experience will most likely be miserable thanks to my need to be edgy."

This is just a personal preference; but mentions of drug use turn me off of commissioning someone. I dislike drugs, and I dislike it more when people brag about doing drugs.

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Date: 2012-04-09 04:23 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mrst4nkr.livejournal.com
I made a commission account completely separate from my personal account. On the commission account, I am strictly business. No profanity, no questionable content mentioned unless it is commission-related, etc.

Personal account? I curse like a sailor, and pretty much do what I want.

I am really turned off to commissioning people who run amok with their attitudes and questionable content, but sometimes, buyers like an edgy artist and the personality that comes with it. Sometimes, it's the "edginess" that sells their art, more than the actual art style.

Date: 2012-04-09 05:05 am (UTC)
ocelotish: A girl with an ocelot on her shoulders (Default)
From: [personal profile] ocelotish
I think there's a degree where rudeness is acceptable, but it haas to be divorced from the public professional profile a bit. If someone has a professional gallery and a personal journal, they can be frustrated in their personal journal: that's their down time. I don't like the idea of policing what people do on break. I mean it's one thing if what they're saying directly relates to their business (e.g. complaining about a customer), but otherwise, let it go. No one has to be a professional 24/7.

You wouldn't expect a doctor to never touch a beer when they were off duty, so why expect an artist to behave perfectly? It only becomes an issue when it effects their professional life.

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From: [personal profile] ocelotish - Date: 2012-04-09 07:58 pm (UTC) - Expand

When in doubt be clean

Date: 2012-04-09 06:36 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] millislim.livejournal.com
You can never come off bad when you're polite and clean about your work. But clean, polite artists does not a professional make. You can be amazing at professional speech and mannerisms but without the work ethic to back it up it's pretty worthless. While I too came from a pretty strict background as well, I work with people who will get the job done and done right. I'm paying for a service. If the job was more intimite...like construction done to my home then language, swearing, etc would definitely be a problem. For some digital art on FA or DA? not so much.

tl;dr
err on the side of caution is always better imo
I pay for a service not a friend

Date: 2012-04-09 06:50 am (UTC)
ext_79259: (tod)
From: [identity profile] greenreaper.livejournal.com
Art reflects life. If your journal shows a life lurching from one crisis to another, or filled with swings of emotion, I will expect that to extend to your work, and judge my involvement in it accordingly.
Edited Date: 2012-04-09 06:51 am (UTC)

Date: 2012-04-09 08:12 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cyiakanami.livejournal.com
I think I veer towards more professional and clean looking profiles when I'm wanting to commission an artist. I don't want to run into a mile long page, info scattered 10 different ways and nothing but drug and alcohol references everywhere. Personally I don't really condone getting high all day and drinking whenever ya feel like it. Specially when you are trying to project sales onto a site. That just screams, I'm going to use the money to get high and condone that kind of behavior.

And while people can do whatever they want with their money, I personally and morally don't find it right to give money to a drug user.

As far as professional page layouts, it really just makes things 10 times easier to navigate and personally, the quicker I can access your information, the faster I want to commission you. Simple as that.

Also a big factor someone mentioned above. Spamming of lude journals. I've unwatched quite a few artists for this reason. I personally don't want to read bashing, drama filled journals all the time. Life updates once in a while is ok. But every single day is just downright annoying. Specially the poor me journals. Those I think erk me the most.

My opinion? You are going to take commissions, that's a business. Make it seem like one.

(edit: can't spell)
Edited Date: 2012-04-09 08:14 am (UTC)

Date: 2012-04-09 08:15 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ikirouta-fox.livejournal.com
Being popular =/= being professional. Please remember this.

I know many very popular artists who do not treat art as a job and never intented to do so. They have zero work ethics. They are just hobbyists doing what they like to do and just happened to get popular for whatever reason. I know that when you get popular at some point people will come to you asking for commissions. Many artists accept because they see it as an easy and quick way to make some money. Doing art as commissions does not make you a professional. A popular hobbyist artist often has a main job.

Professional artists are not always super popular. But what separates them from hobbyists is that they do art for a living and treat it as a job. They understand that their public image is important. Of course there always are some professional artists who act rather unprofessional. My point just was that a popular artist is not always a professional and doesn´t always even care about being a professional.

I personally do not have a personal art account anywhere. I want to establish a certain kind of public image and I know that stuff from my personal account can leak to my professional account and bite me in the butt. I think carefully what I say publicly and I do not swear. I have started drama in the past accidentally just by expressing my opinions in a care-free way and accidentally made many people hate me. I have accounts in FA and DA and I have a blog but I keep those professional. When I talk about myself and my hobbies and my opinions I keep it civil and leave out stuff that will definitely start drama. I have a friends-locked LJ account and there I do whatever I want and rant and swear because that is my personal place which only friends can see.

Date: 2012-04-09 04:48 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thrashbear.livejournal.com
I'm glad you brought this up, since I am one of those people you speak of.

In my case, I attempted to turn my art into a job, and failed miserably. I put in my time in the field and learned the trade in jobs that offered me the skills I desired. It completely sucked the joy out of my work...the sole reason I got into this gig. I even had my own studio which was my sole source of income. Deadlines, schedules, expectations of "professionalism" (a subjective term in itself) turned my dream into a nightmare.

You see, like many artists, the "well" of creativity is limited. There is only so much I can give on a daily/weekly/monthly basis. Once that psychological well runs dry, I have to stop and let it replenish. Forcing it when it's not "there" seriously affects not only the quality of my work, but my quality of life. I'm not an automaton, I'm a human being. I can't crack out work automatically if there isn't passion behind it.

Last year I tried a different approach. I closed the studio and got myself a "real job" outside of my field, but continued getting requests. I told my potential clients that there would be no deadlines, but I would keep in touch with progress reports. This would allow me the freedom to work when the passion is there, and to take time off when it's not. They agreed to this and I've never been happier (or busier).

So yes, I may be a "hobbyist who is doing what he likes to do" according to your definition, but I ask that you reconsider your idea that people like me have "zero work ethic". When I was working regular Jay Oh Bee JOBs, I busted my tail making other people their fortunes while I earned peanuts in return. This seriously compromised my quality of life, placing expectations that were ill-suited to my personality, desires, and goals. I don't have to do that anymore, and why should I? I've been through hell and back to get where I am today and feel as if I have earned the freedom to work when and where I see fit. I've paid my dues, put in my time, and have earned the right to work on my terms. I work and grow at a pace that is comfortable for me, not for some manager or supervisor. My clients understand this and work with me on it. Those that are not comfortable with it do not become clients.

Your response seems to feel that the work of talented hobbyists are somehow "less than" that of professional artists. I used to think that too, until I started hanging around hobbyists that mop the floor with my skills. I admit that it was a bit insulting to have some casual artist create masterpieces in his spare time while I kill myself to create what I consider mediocre work (we are our own worst critics). The difference being I found a niche market and am the best in that market, even if I'm not the best in my field.

In conclusion (and to respond to the OP) my online professional presence is not separate from my personal presence. The same accounts where I show off my work also share other details about my life; the successes, the failures, triumphs and tribulations, the joy and the heartbreak. I consider myself a complicated and dynamic human being just like anyone else, and my work is integrated with that philosophy. Clients and potential clients get to know the real person that makes their commission; not some mysterious, faceless corporation with no soul or spirit behind it.

This philosophy is a two-edged sword. I recently discovered that I have lost out on potential jobs because someone didn't like my politics or language or what TV shows I like to watch. That's their right. If they wish to deny themselves the joy of my product because they don't like the person making the product, so be it. I have also been sought out because of this philosophy, and even made friends after the conclusion of our bargain because of it. That doesn't mean I haven't listened to suggestions and made minor alterations to HOW I present myself as a human being, I've just shifted some presentations to other forums.

I spent 20 years wearing masks and hiding my "true" self just to get and keep work. Now that I don't have to any more, the quality of my life and my work has vastly improved. YMMV.

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Date: 2012-04-09 10:28 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thaily.livejournal.com
Some people think it's edgy to cuss, or that acting slutty will make them more popular. And it might, to an extent, convince some dumb people that they're cool, but everyone else thinks they look like prats.

Just be yourself; being honest and nice to people will get you much farther in the long run.

Date: 2012-04-09 08:53 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] serious-mccoy.livejournal.com
Yeah, this- forgot to mention that part you said in the last sentence! Not being all over the place about your sex life/politics/bad moods/recreational drugs/etc doesn't mean you have to present as a personalityless drone, either- an art machine or something. People can tell when someone's interacting honestly with them, and when they're bullshitting sunshine and platitudes, whether it's the internet or not. Be natural, treat others how you would like to be treated and all that, but just keep a cap on your personal life in public spaces if you're concerned with appealing to as many people as possible.
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