Sculptural Art Theft

[drakenbyte.livejournal.com]

Nervous posting this here, I wanted to settle this behind the scenes/without drama, but when I went to say something a second time I had been blocked. :( I don’t know what the exact format/policy for art thefts to be submitted to A_B so I can only hope I do this right. I am representing this company, I work there, so the art theft actually can and does have a direct impact on me.



WHO: Twilight-Saint

WHERE: http://twilightsaint.deviantart.com/
http://www.etsy.com/shop/TwilightSaintArt?ref=seller_info - http://www.furaffinity.net/user/twilightsaint/

WHAT: Art Theft from The Midsummer Knight’s Dream
http://www.fantasypuppet.com/
https://www.facebook.com/groups/125477530802108/

EXPLAIN: Twilight Saint uses the name woodbaby/woodbabies in tags on dA/Etsy/FA for her Habibis puppets. She also uses the distinct sculpting style of The Midsummer Knight’s Dream so much that at first glance some people actually thought she took a cast of the pieces. I have actually politely asked her to stop on behalf of the company. She blocked me on both FA and dA. I actually asked her to change the style of the puppets. TMKD has a a set style of crossed front limbs and the style of the way the gryphon’s and bird’s legs. Also the way the dragons heads are shaped. It’s been about the same way for around 25 years. There are so many ways to sculpt things like this, but she only seems to copy this style as direct as she can. Proof she uses it as tags:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v244/drakenbyte/Woodbabies/Screenshot2012-09-15at84003PM.png
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v244/drakenbyte/Woodbabies/Screenshot2012-09-15at83924PM.png
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v244/drakenbyte/Woodbabies/Screenshot2012-09-15at83817PM.png
And yes the company is looking into sending a C&D letter.

PROOF:

Her Puppets:
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/8826147/
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/8826135/(if taken down I have screen shot)
My Personal Picture of a puppet I own - http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v244/drakenbyte/Woodbabies/pheonix.jpg
Customer’s Pictures - http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v244/drakenbyte/Woodbabies/391532_10150972050363412_1355205743_n.jpg
https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/389342_3582199025913_276378709_n.jpg
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/295195_4208892021878_2088247926_n.jpg

Her Puppets:http://www.furaffinity.net/full/8636471/ (noticed the wings as well in this one)
TMKD’s Puppets: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v244/drakenbyte/Woodbabies/20120821_065241.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v244/drakenbyte/Woodbabies/549463_275238199249167_1275567308_n.jpg

Her Puppets: http://www.furaffinity.net/view/7980007/
TMKD’s Puppets: http://fantasypuppet.com/images/babygryphon2.jpg
http://fantasypuppet.com/images/lgGryphon2.jpg

Her Puppets: http://www.furaffinity.net/view/7541118/
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/7541052/
TMKD’s Puppets: http://fantasypuppet.com/images/newbabyd1.jpg
http://fantasypuppet.com/images/newbabyd2.jpg
http://fantasypuppet.com/images/newlgdrag2a.jpg

Her Gremlin Puppets: http://www.furaffinity.net/view/8703422/
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/8169317/
TMKD’s Puppet(s): https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/543042_387541907959139_1470001646_n.jpg
https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/534198_387540944625902_1012759775_n.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v244/drakenbyte/Woodbabies/Screenshot2012-09-15at74624PM.png
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v244/drakenbyte/Woodbabies/Screenshot2012-09-15at74550PM.png

Her Crystal Puppets: http://www.furaffinity.net/view/7489737/
TMKD’s Crystal Puppets: (that was the name they were officially called before they were retired) http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v244/drakenbyte/Woodbabies/nightwish2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v244/drakenbyte/Woodbabies/icecaitshid.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v244/drakenbyte/Woodbabies/firedragon.jpg

EDIT: It was suggested to add these facts:
1. I work for in house production of woodbabies, the company The Midsummer Knight's Dream, so I am involved in the designs being infringed upon.
2. Woodbabies is a trademark for the company, along with Fine Art Fantasy Pets.
3. She is taking commissions.

EDIT 2: Twilight Saint replied to me, I tried to reply back but due to FA's note system, I am still blocked and cannot respond to her. http://twitpic.com/ax9z72/full (photobucket shrunk it down)

So it is known, this never was going to be brought out into the public if I could communicate with her through other means, but I didn't have a way of communication.

Comments

[shukivengeance.livejournal.com]

By itself, the fact that she makes puppets of a similar style with crossed legs could have been coincidence, but since she's ripping off your company's name for them is pretty damning. Please update us on the C+D.

[sashimineko.livejournal.com]

Oh my goodness, thats so horrible. I really hope people don't buy the ripoffs in lieu of the real ones. The quality difference is astounding (at least by looks), and I can only imagine someone ordering a fake and then complaining and your company getting flack for that. I really hope that the C&D works out and you're able to stop this person from profiting on your company's name/designs.

[ainoko-ironrose.livejournal.com]

I would suggest sending a C&D to Etsy, DA and FA explaining what you stated here are well.

[theblackdragon.livejournal.com]

this is a good suggestion, but just so the OP knows, Etsy is notorious for not doing a damn thing about this sort of problem :(

[zackfig.livejournal.com]

wow, I gotta say I'm really intrigued about this case, keep us posted on any updates.

[kerstin-orion.livejournal.com]

I'm gonna go ahead and screen this since this person isn't involved or associated with this issue.

[mrst4nkr.livejournal.com]

I didn't see a lot of the similarities until I saw the Crystal Puppets. Those are dead on!

The rest just kind of make hers look like cheap knockoffs of a fancier puppet.

:C Good luck with this!

[neolucky.livejournal.com]

I actually own one of these puppets myself, and I had always wondered if they were ripped off a lot because of their great quality! I'm sorry to see someone so closely copy your work, I hope the C&D detours them!

[dirtiran.livejournal.com]

It is a very very verrrry old and popular idea. (I owned one around 20 years ago when I was little when I got it at a fair.)

And ive seen many great artists make their own versions, but with similar styles and poses.

I can see the issue documented here though, mainly on those crystal ones, oi.

[kaelstra.livejournal.com]

I've actually seen tons of those cross-legged shoulder dragons at conventions being sold by various companies over the last like 7 years or so. No idea if it's the original artist or not. They sell for around $50-100 depending on how elaborate of a model you decide on, and tons of people get them and wear them around the convention.

[drakenbyte.livejournal.com]

Most likely us. We are a whole seller too! We do conventions! :)

[bellyofthewolf.livejournal.com]

I think that her blocking you rather than even trying to discuss rationally or defend her puppets is evidence in itself. The use of the term as a keyword is sloppy on her part and adds to the fact that she probably doesn't even care. The cease and desist is going to most likely be the only thing that she'll take notice of and even then it may go unanswered. Good luck.

[slyminera.livejournal.com]

Oh gosh, that's horrible D:
I'm the proud owner of a Woodbaby as well, and it's shameful that she would do that, especially since Woodbabies are so well known amongst Renaissance Festival attendees.

Hopefully you can get this sorted out. As others have said, a C&D is definitely the way to go.

[spartanwerewolf.livejournal.com]

You have "gryphons" spelt "gyphons" on the fantasypuppet.com site. IDK if you want to point that out to whoever does the site for y'all.

Hers are very similar to your company's, and the fact that she both uses your company's names to tag her products and banned/blocked you seems pretty damning to me. Definitely interested to see how this progresses.

[drakenbyte.livejournal.com]

Ok! Will let them know! Although they might redo the site soon too, so who knows!

[starinthegutter.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry to hear this happened- and I hope it gets resolved one way or another. I got a woodbaby from the Sterling Renaissance Festival this past summer and I absolutely adore the company's designs. The one thing that sticks out to me though is the quality of TwilightSaint's creations really isn't up to par with Midsummer Knight's Dream.

[drakenbyte.livejournal.com]

Thank you. We had a great time in Sterling and we are looking forward to going again. We do try to stay ahead of things like this by keeping our products fresh and fun, and change the models ever few years. :)

[crssafox.livejournal.com]

When I first saw some of TwilightSaint's dragons, they looked like they were direct rips (as in, she stripped the original puppet and took molds) instead of sculpted by herself. When I look a little closer at some of them, I can see that some things have changed, but a lot of the details look similar enough that people could be confused as to who the original maker was. I agree with others that have said that, even from looking at the photos, her quality is just not anywhere near Midsummer Knight's Dream's quality. The puppets she's sculpted "freehand" (that is to say, without looking at another puppet's design, like the pony puppets she posted pictures of) just seem to be completely off the mark all together as far as quality in appearance goes.

The concept of the shoulder puppets is nothing new, and sure, others have made similar puppets and sell them, but with the similarities in design and the using of tags on Etsy and dA make it seem like she's trying to capitalize on another company's success. I really hope the C&D works out and she knocks it off. If she'd put efforts into working on original designs, she could have success all her own, without having to ride someone else's coattails.

[puppetmaker40.livejournal.com]

There are also the drabbits out there that look a lot like these but the creator of those has been selling them at the NY Ren Faire for over 15 years. The mechanics are old than that since I learned how to make a version of this puppet over 25 years ago.

However, these are too close the original sculpts to be a coincidence and the sculpt can be/ is copyright the original artist(s). C&D is a must here along with lots of evidence gathering including any makers marks that may have transferred.

[drakenbyte.livejournal.com]

Yes, The Midsummer Knight's Dream has been around since 1984 and started in New York. The owner pioneered and came up with the techniques. :)

[sharpecostumes.livejournal.com]

It seems that it really is far too difficult for some people to be creative and original these days. I do hope you are able to resolve this dear as it looks that you are handling this very well. My feathers are ruffled at the very fact that she's not only copying flat out and making money off of it, but is not even trying to be responsible in her actions.

[sharpecostumes.livejournal.com]

It's a good thing you caught a screenshot of those in their etsy as they are all removed sans the two MLP puppets.

[themoa.livejournal.com]

That's really sad to see. I was really suspicious about her crafts as soon as I saw furaffinity banner adds. I own one of Woodbabies [black, lovely dragon :3] and honestly I was wondering if she's associated with original creator... Seems not D:
I'm sorry it happened to you!
The way she's acting gives really bad vibe about the case. It really doesn't seem like a coincidence. Shoulder puppets are similar to each other in general, but these tags and names... Sad :/
Crystal ones really look like cheap bootlegs comparing to TMKD.

Good luck :C

[drakenbyte.livejournal.com]

I had forgotten how I had originally found her! Yes, I actually thought that she was working with the studio (I was an on the road vendor for them for awhile before becoming in house again) but then found out that she was not.

[mazz.livejournal.com]

Well that's disappointing. Kinda glad I didn't ask her about commissions like I originally planned.
*bookmarks woodbabies site*

[drakenbyte.livejournal.com]

Ohhhh, I know you'd love some of the birds we've done too! We have a corvid too, I wanted to bring one to Furfright! :)

[sharpecostumes.livejournal.com]

While indeed there are two sides to the story, the evidence in this case is very clear of theft/infringement. Even if not all of this story has been said, there is still no excuse for the actions performed by Twilight. To deal with harassment would almost be another case in this matter as there is a rather severe hit being taken to this company's quality image with each sale she makes if people are mistaking her work for theirs.

[germanchoclates.livejournal.com]

She's already begun deleting the submissions. :/ Guilty conscience, perhaps.

[sharpecostumes.livejournal.com]

All the better for all of those screencaps. One cannot delete those.

[astanaxknight.livejournal.com]

I saw that a photo of a woodbaby phoenix was posted. So I did a side by side comparison of TwilightSaint's phoenix. If you're going to argue about copyright infringement, at least leave the phoenix puppets alone, especially when the woodbaby phoenix has two feet that are molded together, while TwilightSaint's puppet has feet that are separate from each other. Photo for proof:
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i43/Astanax/Phoenix%20knockoff%20question/Really_zps42ab085d.jpg

[kerstin-orion.livejournal.com]

Deletion of comments is against the rule of the community. This is your warning. Do not do it again.

[semisonicstar.livejournal.com]

Wow. That's horrible. I have a Woodbaby gryphon that I just adore - got him at a Ren Faire years ago. Yall's puppets are superb and the fact that someone else is profiting from your name is infuriating. :/ I hope this gets resolved asap. *has no words*

[negawolfie.livejournal.com]

Wow I saw this person before I didn't thought too much on the style, had a small conversation with this person how I have a woodbaby as well. I got mines from the Ren Faire in Sterling NY this year. I hope this all gets settled it's a shame to see someone ripping off another person's work.

My own personal view to defend TwilightSaint

[astanaxknight.livejournal.com]

TwilightSaint wasn't profiting from the woodbaby name. She was tagging the words "woodbaby" and "drabbit" in her art to help people navigate to her page. How many people do you know navigate people to their art derived from Star Wars characters without using the words "Star Wars"? TwilightSaint doesn't have the money house to go from Ren Faire to convention all over the U.S. to advertise. It is by word of mouth because she is dirt poor and is trying to make ends meet in this economy. Seriously, how many ways can arms be put? The crossed over arms is a mechanical necessity in my opinion because that big ball of material created by the crossed over arms/hands acts as a counter weight as opposed to two separate arms. Even drabbits on occasion have been seen with crossed over hands/arms:
http://www.imaginariumgalleries.com/picture/cimg1486.jpg?pictureId=15125800&asThumbnail=false

TwilightSaint had started taking the tags off as per the owner of The Midsummer Knight's Dream request back on September 17th 2012 before Drakenbyte even started this flame war against her on this site. She wasn't calling her puppet creations "woodbabies". In her info she said that her puppets were not "woodbabies" or "drabbits", and directed people to the actual woodbaby site, long before Drakenbyte started this. TwilightSaint made the potential customer know exactly what they were getting, and she made sure they were well aware that these weren't woodbaby puppets or drabbits. Is one jean company going to sue another jean company because it looks so similar to theirs? No. Those screenshots of tags are old, as the third one talking about Aurora said "2 days ago" ( http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v244/drakenbyte/Woodbabies/Screenshot2012-09-15at83817PM.png ) when I received Aurora back on September 11th. The phoenix puppet that I got was very well made and moved better than all my six woodbabies and for a lot cheaper. Drakenbyte said to me that TwilightSaint couldn't use the word "crystal" when describing her puppets. TwilightSaint never called them "crystal puppets", but she called the clear colored resin "crystal" when describing it. In my opinion, the word "crystal" is not copyrighted as Drakenbyte is insinuating. Plus The Midsummer Knight's Dream stopped the clear colored resin years ago due to toxic resin and destroying molds, so I don't even know why that is an issue. TwilightSaint's clear resin was non toxic by the way.

The owner of The Midsummer Knight's Dream has the means, and has been contacting TwilightSaint concerning this private matter, IN PRIVATE. TwilightSaint has been more than compliant with the owner of The Midsummer Knight's Dream and has never blocked him. TwilightSaint blocked Drakenbyte long before I met her because Drakenbyte was trying to do more personal things than what she is mentioning above. TwilightSaint had the proof to back that up.

To have a rouge worker blast TwilightSaint's name all over the internet is slanderous. Yes TwilightSaint had been working on new models away from The Midsummer Knight's Dream concept face wise in agreement with the owner's private messages to her, but this attack from anonymous people from all over LiveJournal has killed a fine young fledging sculptor who was in the process of making everything right with the owner of The Midsummer Knight's Dream before this low blow by Drakenbyte. Congratulations.

Re: My own personal view to defend TwilightSaint

[norsepaw.livejournal.com]

If she got proof, why cant she post here and tell her side of the story?

Also, how do you know its people from Livejournal that are "killing" her? There is a rule here that state that whatever happens here stays here.

And I know its not easy to create an very own style, but I think she should keep practising till she finds her very own original style and design that look nothing like others. I have seen so many diffrent sculpet puppet styles so its possible to be original.

[astraldescent.livejournal.com]

I'm gonna be honest and say that I don't believe that you can copyright a sculptural style outright anymore than you can copy an art style or character quirk. And really, no matter how many furries wish it weren't the case, you kinda can't.

Using the name and/or copying a patented rigging style, fine by me.

But to me, they really look pretty different. Its clear that she saw your idea and then began to do it, but look- its a shoulder puppet, you admit its been around for decades, the fact is you can't stick your head in the mud and act like nobody else is ever gonna do it.

It'd be like if the first suitmaker to think of 3d following eyes or resin eyes started flipping out about other people adapting the technique for themselves, and now almost everyone does one of those techniques.

Unless they are copying a patented rigging style or construction style/pattern, I don't really think its legally wrong aside from her using the name.

Look at it this way... Have you ever had burger kings chicken fries? When they first came out, they had the coolest box- the flap folded down, and became a holder for your sauce so you could dip it easily. They patented that. Mcdonalds now has a version of the same box. Even though its patented, it still got copied. It's business, and morally and emotionally it might suck, but if you have been doing business for any length of time (which you have) you have to accept you will get copied.

I have no problem with letting people know, because yeah sure its shady that she wouldn't at least credit your company with the idea. I'm just saying, aside from the name, its obvious she didn't actually make casts of the pieces (people said the crystal puppets were more exact... that submission was removed)and I don't think you can own a style. Otherwise people doing Sonic and Disney style art would all be sued out of house and home by now.

[drakenbyte.livejournal.com]

Twilight Saint responded to me and I posted it above. I cannot reply to her as I am still blocked. EDIT: Whoops, meant for this to be posted in it's own thread!

[drakenbyte.livejournal.com]

Twilight Saint responded to me and I posted it above. I cannot reply to her as I am still blocked.

[oceandezignz.livejournal.com]

I hope she realizes that deleting posts is against community policy. The best she'll get is "resolved" tag, and only if you both come to an understanding worth one.