Otterman89

[mistresswolf.livejournal.com]

WHO: Otterman89, Bradley

WHERE: http://www.furaffinity.net/user/otterman89/

WHAT: Digital art, comic.

WHEN: November 2nd 2012 - ongoing

PROOF & EXPLAIN: In the LJ cut!

I had hoped not to have to post here... but here we go!

Otterman89 posted a thread on FAF looking for an artist to do a comic series for him. It appears that out of the people that posted their prices, mine were cheapest so I got a note from him on the mainsite even though I asked him to email. (I prefer email because Gmail keeps it threaded and I can open the entire convo at once.)

His note, asking a few questions about what I will do, confirming price and asking if he can do it in spurts of a few pages at a time (while still getting the lower rate) since he doesn't like to spend a lot of money at once. ... At 20 pages, the project would be $200.

My return note, answering said questions and showing him my comic process.

He then sent me his already scripted out (very clearly and easy to follow) comic. It was indeed 20 pages and didn't have any content that was too weird for me.

I give him a little more information and confirm that he wants me to do it.

He chooses for a Saturday release when he gets pages. This wouldn't be EVERY Saturday I understood, but only when he gave me the go-ahead for more pages.

I asked how many pages to do and he said a cover page and the first two pages. I asked again for his email address and said I would send the sketches of all three pages by Friday (Nov 9th) for his approval. He never did send me his email address, so on Nov 8th I send him a note containing a link to the sketches and ask a couple of questions as to the title of the comic and if he wants handwritten text or computer text.

He appears happy so far, so I go ahead. We have a little back and forth about when he should post the comics on his gallery. I like to space it a little so that it can possibly increase the amount of people viewing it.

Here I should have waited until he actually paid me before finishing the pages, but since I wanted to make good on my promised release date, I went ahead with them.

I email him on the agreed date to let him know that the pages are ready and I will send them once I am paid. I still haven't heard from him by the next day so I send him a note with links to the finished pages.

Shortly after I get a note saying that he can't pay me for a week because suddenly this other artist he wanted a commission from had an auction going and he decided to bid on it. Nevermind that the work he wanted from me was ready to go. In the interest of keeping peace, I just thanked him for letting me know and said I will be looking forward to next weekend. I did not post the finished pages or give him the pages. He only got to see low res, watermarked copies.

Two hours later he mentions a change that he hadn't during the sketch stage. That the characters are actually supposed to be the same height. It hadn't occured to me to ask this, but I had gone through his gallery looking at other drawings of these two and they seemed to be of different heights so that is what I did. It was my mistake though. We agreed to change it for later pages, as in these ones it was only thee panels that showed the difference and not such a big deal.

Two days later he changes his mind and asks me to fix it. I get it done. (not pictured in the screen shot is the note from me on Nov14 saying okay and his on the same day saying thanks.)

I sent him a money request on the 17th. I didn't hear from him so on the 18th I sent a reminder note and on the 19th I resent a money request using the 'invoice' tab. On the 20th he responds and says he hasn't seen it. reminder, invoice screenie

He pays the invoice on the 20th and apologises for the wait. Also says that he will be looking forward to this weekends pages. Emailed the sketches two days later as he indicated on the 20th he wanted more pages for the 24th. I don't seem to have his approval of the sketches saved, but I know he did.

I didn't hear from him that weekend, so on the 26th I sent him a note with links to the low res watermarked files to prove they were ready. And an invoice which I dated for the 14th just in case.

My mistake was probably saying "They are ready for you whenever you are ready to pay," as this is when the real trouble for me starts. As I was completely ignored until 4 days later when he sent me this note about how the game expansion he wants is on sale so he wants to buy it while he still can. I am miffed at this point, but send back an understanding note saying that my sister is into that game so I understand that he wants it and to keep me in the loop about what he is up to. He sends a note saying "Kk :)" then the next day tries to placate me (I guess) with this note.

So the weekend of the 8th goes by and I get nothing from him. No update notes or payment or anything. In the time from when I sent him the invoice on the 26th up until the due date on the 14th, I sent him two reminders.. I am not sure of the days since I don't know if PayPal keeps a record of that. I was very annoyed at this point, so I sent him a note about it. He tries to tell me that he wasn't ignoring me (though he was) and gives me a tale about how he is addicted to art and everyone offers such great deals at this time of the year that he can't help himself. Also about how he should be getting more hours at work but isn't. Excuses... but then says twice that his goal is to pay everyone by Jan 1st 2013. ... Okay I will not get mad at him, because I would like to see this money. I reply and leave it at that.

While all this time of him not paying me is going on, I see him on the FA forums making threads about getting more commissions so it is ticking me off that he has me and apparently a bunch of other artists to pay still and is STILL commissioning more art.

Wanting a ref pic...
Wanting some kind of fanart...
Wanting a WoW pic...
Wanting a Lion King pic...
Wanting a 2ft plushie made...

I restrained myself from posting in any of those threads. Keeping myself professional and not calling him out.

On the 17th I got another note with another excuse as to why he couldn't pay me. This time I ignored him because I couldn't trust myself to stay polite. I decided to just wait and see if he would pay me by Jan 1st as his goal stated.

Meanwhile, I check his FA page a little and see he is uploading an awful lot of art, although if any are gifts/freebies, I don't know. Forty-eight pictures between the day he commissioned me and today (Jan 2nd). None of them being the pages from me that he did pay for. However, one is a LK picture (he posted looking for one on Dec15th and this was uploaded Dec22nd) which makes me wonder why he could pay that artist who was commissioned after me but not me. Some of the other pictures may have been those other artists from December that he owed, but I have no way of knowing.

So on Jan 2nd I sent him another note asking how the payment was coming along and he now promises by this weekend.

I really shouldn't have let it drag out this long (although it is not nearly as long as most of the stories here), but I was afraid that if I rocked the boat, I wouldn't see anything at all... but that is what I am seeing now. I sure hope I see that money on the weekend. In either case, I decided several weeks ago that I will not be working with him further on this project but wanted to wait until he paid for the current batch of pages before telling him. I also wanted to hold off on the A_B post until he at least paid me, but I am afraid I won't so I chose to go forward with this post.

Beware of Otterman89. Do not do anything (he typically only asks for two types of drawings... tongues tied together or private parts locked together) until he pays you... which I mean, that should go without saying already. Live and learn I suppose.


______

Update- While waiting for this entry to get approved the following has happened...

I waited over the weekend and heard nothing from him. In the afternoon on Monday the 7th I sent him a note telling him that I can not work on his project any longer. This is what I already intended to tell him, even if he had paid me. He sends a note back one minute later saying that he was just about to send the money. Personally, I don't believe him, but I am firm about not working with him any longer... though I would still like to get the money.

caps of that exchange

After that, he asked for my PP address again and FINALLY paid me. So, I guess this is resolved. Now I just have to convince him that I won't do any more pages... at least that I won't do anything until the batch is paid for in advance. No sketches or anything.

Comments

[kerstin-orion.livejournal.com]

No

[mistresswolf.livejournal.com]

Hm. I missed whatever that was. But also, I added an update and this can be marked as resolved... but still be wary of this guy. :)

[kerstin-orion.livejournal.com]

It was just one of those broken image spam things.

Glad you received your payment, though. I will mark it as resolved.

[kerstin-orion.livejournal.com]

Also, smart to insist on payment up front, after being put on hold so many times. Especially as he admits he has a problem with commissioning more than he can afford.

[timelapsedecay.livejournal.com]

Last link redirects to your website.

Seriously though, it kind of strikes me as a lack of self control (I don't mean to insult him though)
He seems to commit to agreements over money compulsively and doesn't commit himself to keeping up with his debts. Clearly not ready to be doing business with anyone :C

[mistresswolf.livejournal.com]

Thanks! I fixed the link. :)

Indeed. I don't really want to work on his comic any longer... but if he sends me the money up front (before I do ANY work) then I will finish the comic.

[timelapsedecay.livejournal.com]

That's what I would recommend. It's completely reasonable, given his track record. In the event that he comes through and agrees to pay ahead of pages- finish the project and run for the hills.

Edited for better grammar

[zaulankris.livejournal.com]

This is extra-sad because you're such a patient person who undercharges herself anyway :(

[mistresswolf.livejournal.com]

heh Thanks. At least I finally got the money. I guess it took me telling him that I was going to drop his project that kicked him into gear. :P

[ducttapeninja.livejournal.com]

I haven't had to do any art for him, but he has been... Really insistent on trying to get art from me. :/ In September he noted me asking me if he could commission me for sexual artwork of him and my then-fursona. 1) I had no idea this guy even existed before he noted me, 2) Beyond what little I did for myself and my now-ex, I don't do sexual art of people with my fursona, 3) I don't take commissions, and nowhere on my page has it ever said that I did.

I told him I was uncomfortable with it and he started begging, offering as much as $150 for a single piece despite my standing my ground on not doing the art-- Even going so far as to claim he would "give his life" for the picture, because he supposedly needed it that badly. He went away after a while when I didn't change my mind.

A month ago I posted a feeler journal+submission about possibly doing a YCH auction with my fursona (since my hours at work have gone down) once my boyfriend finished repairing and updating my art laptop, and he jumped on it, talking about how he was totally going to bid on the auction if I did do it... And then he started bugging me in notes about buying a commission from me for the same thing if he lost the auction. Which... Kind of takes away from the reason why I'm considering doing that auction. Especially when you consider the fact that "I don't take commissions or draw this sort of thing normally" is kind of its only selling point when I'm not a well-known artist... I told him maybe, because I was kind of being dumb and really passive and didn't want to cause any drama by straight-up turning him down again.

January 3rd he noted me again asking if I was still considering doing the auction (I had been planning on starting around now, but my laptop is still out of commission so I couldn't do the art if someone won), because he really really wanted the art of him and my character. Which rubbed me the wrong way entirely, because that note came almost immediately after I posted a journal regarding some issues I've been having with a stalker and that I wouldn't be active online for a while because of it. I responded and told him that that was on the backburner for a while because again, I'm waiting on my laptop, and the personal issues I'd posted a journal about were taking priority and I needed to lay low for a while.

Aaaaaannnnd then he started asking about buying the commission from me again, at which point I just told him that I wouldn't have the time to do it and that I'd only have time for whoever won the auction itself. He hasn't messaged me since.

Sorry for the TL;DR, I just thought I'd add that he's not only been posting on FAF looking for commissions while he owes you money, but that he's been noting people privately about commissioning them as well, even when they state in their profiles that they don't take commissions-- I honestly doubt I'm the only artist he's been noting about buying commissions from, so chances are he's got a lot more artists either on his commission list or waiting for payment than you might think.

Apparently he's been doing this to people for quite a while (I've had a few other friends end up heckled by him over artwork whether they were taking commissions or not), and truth be told I'm not surprised to see him finally posted here. I'm really sorry you have to deal with this guy, and I hope things get straightened out soon. D:

[ljmydayaway.livejournal.com]

... does this guy go by any other names on FA as well, that you know of? Between your experience and the OP's, that describes the experiences I've had with another commissioner to a T.

Right down to the constant annoyance of trying to get sex commissions with my fursona and not paying (yet paying a bunch of other people).

[ducttapeninja.livejournal.com]

Not a clue, to be honest. I only know him as Otterman89, and I'd never had any experience with run-ins like this with another user before. It might be possible he has alt accounts, but I've never seen any signs of 'em myself... I'd rather believe that than the alternative, which would be that there are other people out there doing this exact same thing. And that's a really scary and depressing thought. D:

[mistresswolf.livejournal.com]

D: Oh dear. That sounds really annoying. Even when I told him that I wanted to drop him, he replied with...

"Btw, I'm still going to continue this comic with you, I'm just going to pause it for a couple of weeks until I have the other artists paid off. :> "

and

"Please. :> I just need to hold off on the comic for the next couple of weeks. I promise this won't happen again. Please don't kick me away. :("

... I should just be firm and say no. Even though I could use another $140.

[ducttapeninja.livejournal.com]

Yeah, he told me in my most recent discussion with him about the auction that if he won it he wouldn't be able to pay me right away because he has other artists he needs to pay off first. That alone was enough of a red flag for me.

On the one hand, I'd suggest that you drop him and save yourself the stress that may come from having to keep running in circles with him about this payment thing, but on the other... I know exactly how you feel being hesitant to turn him away. I've got dental bills I need to pay (at least, until I can get on my workplace's health and dental) and he's the only one who's shown any amount of interest in my auction, so... :(

[kasuned.livejournal.com]

... I should just be firm and say no. Even though I could use another $140.

Everyone could use the money, but sometimes the things you have to do to get it just aren't worth the stress. If you honestly think you should put your foot down, do it. NEVER feel bad about saying no to a commissioner. I've had to turn down 2, in the past week and a half.

[thaily.livejournal.com]

Could always tell him he has to pay in advance now, and only start once you get the money. But he might still send you a billion sob stories to waste your time.

[tealmoonxiv.livejournal.com]

I've seen him posting shouts on peoples pages trying to get artwork.

[ducttapeninja.livejournal.com]

He's never once left a shout on my page, though he did leave a few comments on the feelers posts I made about the auction. Before any of those comments happened though, he went straight to noting and begging. :/

[kasuned.livejournal.com]

I remember you telling me about this, sans the events that have happened recently.

That is so, so creepy and disgusting. I think you should silently block him, honestly.

To the OP: If he pays you, echoing others. Finish that project, then cut him off.

[ducttapeninja.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I was kind of willing to just quietly put up with him until after I had the auction (if I do still decide to go through with it) and he either won or lost, but the fact that immediately after I posted my "Kinda being stalked, ditching FA for a while for Friends-Only spaces" journal with "So can you do my furry porn for me?" just really put me off of wanting anything to do with him altogether. He just doesn't seem like the type who actually respects the artists he goes out of his way to beg for work from-- He only seems willing to cooperate with and respect an artist just enough to get what he wants, and that really bugs me.

[malytwotails.livejournal.com]

Oh jeez, this guy. He noted me out of the blue asking if I would draw sexually explicit/fetish artwork of his human with my personal OC, and was insistent to the point of harassment when I seemed taken aback by it. One of only 3 people I've ever blocked on FA.

Poison doesn't like to tongue-kiss strangers!

Re: His human character?

[kerstin-orion.livejournal.com]

This part of the thread has turned a little personal and TMI, so I'm going to screen it.

[ljmydayaway.livejournal.com]

Wow, that excuse about the Amazon prime membership? NO. Just no. You can sign up for the trial and immediately go in and tell it not to charge you when the month is up.

There's literally no excuse (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/47368034/do-not-renew.jpg) for not cancelling the membership (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/47368034/amazon-prime-membership-screen1.jpg) if you only wanted the trial. (http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?ie=UTF8&nodeId=200444180)

I would certainly not do any more work for him in the future. Especially not for $10/page. :c

Also, wtf at suddenly getting $50 at random? What kind of ball-honkey excuse is that? Is that supposed to make you feel better for not getting paid all this time? O _o

[kitaramoonfox.livejournal.com]

...and this is why I'm glad I don't take commissions anymore. This guy noted me about wanting to get a tongue tied pic with a character of mine and I told him that I don't do commissions. He said he was okay with it. Several days later he asked if he offered a lot of money if I would do it. I politely declined and said that the character was personal to me and I still would not take commissions.

Now I'm reeeeeally glad i didn't take it.

[thaily.livejournal.com]

I've seen him around FAF and thought there was something off about him. I thought it was just the weird fetish, but he seemed so needy and flaky even in his threads. Your exchange with him just seems to be a continuation on that; he tells you he wants to do X with his money, as if asking you for permission to not pay you and you begrudgingly give that permission time and time again. I'm glad you put your foot down.

You should contact Arshes on FAF about him too, especially if he still has to pay multiple artists they might temp-ban him until he manages to pay everyone off before trying to commission someone from the forum again.

[blufennec.livejournal.com]

He might have been one of the most troublesome customers I've ever had. Apart from demanding me to stream the work and insisting that it should get done asap and whatnot just threw me over the edge and then some to the point where the quality was utter shite.

I'm sorry to hear about your experience with him. Hope others read and be weary of this guy.

[wager218.livejournal.com]

I had pretty much that same experience. A lot of the time when I streamed he never did show and even told him once that the piece would be done faster if I worked on it offline. He kept saying that it was an important piece and that I had to stream it. Sucks to see others having issues with him.

[veneer maro (from livejournal.com)]

Always, always, always, ALWAYS ask for money up front =(
I've had a couple similar issues, and this is the only way to avoid them.
I'm sorry this happened to you, but maybe you can learn from this before something worse happens.
Make sure you receive full payment before starting on work. If the customer is not ok with that, then it's probably not a good idea to do work with them.
Glad everything worked out, and I suggest not to do any more work with him.
<3

[mistresswolf.livejournal.com]

Yeah. Learned my lesson! There are some customers that I totally trust and will do the work before payment (Graymuzzle/mx5madness is awesome) but for this guy, I won't even do a sketch until he pays me up front. I don't really want to continue his comic, but I will if he agrees to my condition.

[veneer maro (from livejournal.com)]

Best of luck to you, and I'm glad you learned from it =)

[dragontripmon.livejournal.com]

Also there something else i remember last year i looked at his FA profile and remember he was involved in one of the free art threads which he was begging for free art when the artist stoped taking request.
http://forums.furaffinity.net/threads/122487
Considering it does'nt help matters when he is guilt tripping saying he's no artist. But if he wanted it so bad would'nt he tried drawing it himself. And this has not happened to just this thread on FAF either.

[mistresswolf.livejournal.com]

*reads thread* Oh jeez. >___>

[dragontripmon.livejournal.com]

Well it's also safe to say with the amount of posts of him asking for comissions as well as requests count's off as greedy to me. I have a feeling he may wind up getting kicked off the art shack considering a few people already had that happen to them.

[kaekokino.livejournal.com]

He commissioned me when I. Had opened for emergency commissions.

Just really pushy of you to get the work done. And only in stream. I even discounted a normal $70 pic to $35..v.v refunding cause I have a job now.


Good to hear he paid ya tho :3

[apollosglare.livejournal.com]

So I found this when doing some digging, and decided to share my encounter with this guy. This guy messaged me soon after I posted a picture, asking for a commission. At the time I posted the picture, I was holding a livestream and so hadn't seen his initial message.

I noticed it while I was uploading a second picture and checked it. Deciding to reply after I ate- Note, it had only been an hour since he initially sent me the message.

Coming back, I noticed about 2 more messages from him, within about 10 minutes from each other. Before I had a chance to even think on how to reply, I had another note, and a shout on my page from him.

I wound up telling my friend about it, and she pointed me to this livejournal- So I blocked him without much else to be said on the matter because I didn't want to dig myself a hole.

But seriously, because I went to get food- He sent me multiple messages like; 'Oh I guess you're not going to reply then.' and 'Why are you ignoring me, I just want to commission you!'

Just, thanks for the heads up, I felt I should share my small experience here.

[mistresswolf.livejournal.com]

Yeah he tends to do that. He still sends me FA notes even though I've said I prefer to conduct commissions through my gmail account.

He is really persistent too. After this all happened he ordered a few more pages (all one at a time at different times) and sent the money before he checked to see if I had time to do the pages. I did them and then I didn't hear from him for a month.

In that time, I upped my comic rates. When he contacted me again saying that in addition to "Bradley & Rosie" he wanted to have a second one going called "Bradleys Life" I told him that I was not interested in starting another comic with him and that, quite honestly, I didn't even really want to do the first one any longer but I would continue it for the 20 pages he had sent scripts for since I committed to those already, but after that he would have to find someone else.

He begged "Please? I beg of you. I promise, no more other comics. This isn't fair. You keep on for others. Please? You're the only good comic maker who I can afford to do this. Please? This is important to me. I spent the good part of the last 3 or so months looking for someone. I picked you because you have an amazing doodly comic style. Please do it for me. I need this."

He said that instead of B&R, he would like me to to BL. I informed him that my rates increased and he would not get to pay the old price for the new comic (the old one would still be at the old price). He was like "Yeah, that is okay!" since it didn't dissuade him, I told him again that I didn't want to do it. He begged again so I said okay, but he can post it in his gallery as I didn't want to post it in mine.

He was like "How about I pay $5 more than regular price and you post it in your gallery!" so I said okay.

Then he sent $10 (less than regular price and half of what he said he'd pay) for the title page of the new comic. I sent a note saying that he said he'd pay more than that. Then he started whinging with things like:

"Lol I was hoping you'd forget about that. xD

I did that because I felt you were being unfair to me since you'd post for everyone else and treated me different. I don't see what you have against me. I was kind of hurt, my feelings I mean. I know you're not a mean person, and I don't hold grudges, but I'm not angry or upset. Do you still want me to do $20 a page just to get it into the gallery? I'd like to be treated equally with the other comics and commissions and pay the "fair" price as stated in your Price Guide. :> "

and

"I just want to be treated like your other comic commissioners. Please?"

I reminded him that I am under no obligation to post anything to my galleries that I don't want to and that I wasn't trying to extort him or anything, but he OFFERED to pay it. But anyway, I backed off of it and agreed to post it in my gallery for the regular price.

I did the cover page that same day and I haven't heard from him since. That was June 8th. I should just contact him again and drop the whole thing really. I don't have the time to keep THREE comics going all at once. lol

[kayla-la.livejournal.com]

If you keep proving to him that if he nags you enough, you'll renege and give him his way, he's going to keep doing it because you've taught him that it works.

You absolutely have to put your foot down and stick to your guns if you want it to be over. No more 'okays', no more backing down.

[mistresswolf.livejournal.com]

I totally agree. About an hour ago I sent him a polite (yet firm) note saying that I had to permanently cancel his commission and I hope that he can find another artist to take over.

If he whines or tries to get me to have sympathy, he is getting blocked.

edit: Just got this note in return: "Sorry about not responding, but everything's been crazy around here lately. Not to mention we have to move soon. So you have to pick ME to drop? So un-fair. You can find time for me. You just don't want to be fair and make the effort."

So I said "Honestly, I haven't had any problems whatsoever with my other two comic customers so when I had to pick one project to drop, the choice was clear. Sorry."

I think I was professional enough during every interaction he and I have had. If he responds to this though, I block.

[kayla-la.livejournal.com]

Yes, you don't OWE your service to anybody. You are always free to refuse someone, and don't let anyone tell you otherwise. I wouldn't even apologize for it. I'm not sure why he feels like he's entitled to your work.

If he responds to you, block without replying to him.

[mistresswolf.livejournal.com]

He sent two notes back to back...

- Please don't drop me. Stop picking on me. :(
- Y'know, I was fixing to start paying for my comic next weekend.

So I blocked right away (suuuuuure he was about to contact me to pay for more comic next weekend... yet on his page he has a journal saying that he is trying to buy a parrotlet) and didn't answer. Blocked on both of my FA accounts.

He doesn't ask for permission from the other character owners.

[songgo-ishtar.livejournal.com]

He was my first commissioner, I asked for money up front and he took forever to actually PAY, but once he did he asked for basically what you said above, but with a human and feral.

She came to me about a year later stating that she never gave permission to that image. I took it down promptly. Watch out for this.

Re: He doesn't ask for permission from the other character owners.

[mistresswolf.livejournal.com]

wow Yikes! While I am never doing work for him again, I now (at least on adult art) try to get everyones permission or see if they have reciprocal "we're mates!" things in their profiles.

[hamakei (from livejournal.com)]

Hmm... I came across this guy. He asked me if he could use my character in a picture of a similar nature to the ones described...and wouldn't take no for an answer. In the end I had to block him as he wouldn't leave me alone.