Mod Post: Shouts and other beware-ee contact

[kerstin-orion.livejournal.com]

Due to the excessive posting on Cashoo's page by both involved and outside parties, we A_B mods have had to give several warnings. One of these was a warning to someone who was a customer who made an A_B post about Cashoo.

This was an exceedingly rare and unique circumstance. We mods generally encourage contact between parties in a transaction. However, if a comment is harassing, or if it expressly mentions Artists_Beware, that is a problem.

LiveJournal has certain rules about use of its website for harassment. While we mods try very hard to prevent others from using Artists_Beware as a means for harassment, some people still see our community as such. Therefore, we want to keep mention of our site on beware-ees' pages minimal-to-none. This includes comments made by someone who actually has legitimate business with that person.

We understand that we have not made the above clear in our rules, and will endeavor to correct that shortly. We have not given any "official" warnings just for mentioning Artist_Beware.

And as always, harassment of any kind by anyone (whether you have business with this person or not) is not allowed. Period. Don't do it.

Interpretation of what is harassment is up to the moderators. It is not always black and white and we have to make the call based on the current situation. When in doubt, just don't post on the beware-ee's page. It's that simple.

Those wishing to discuss this issue are welcome to do so here.

Comments

[rimpala.livejournal.com]

Isn't Cashoo perma-banned on FA? I don't see much point in posting on their page when they can't even access the account. The site probably needs to lock the page if they haven't already.

[oceandezignz.livejournal.com]

Its not her FA page that's the problem. We are also not FA mods, so we have zero control over what happens there and their policies on who gets their pages locked.

[rimpala.livejournal.com]

Ah alright, and I'm aware you're not in control over there

[thecreativepen.livejournal.com]

I personally agree with this. I've been noticing a flood of comments on her DA page (not saying it's people from the community). But I can't imagine all of that negative attention is motivating her to change her ways. Not that it's an excuse on her part.

I think it's best for people to just continue to voice their disdain over the situation here, and not to be migrating to other websites to spread it.

[marus-puppy.livejournal.com]

I agree with this completely.

It's one thing to remark how disgusted you are with her (or any beware-ee's) behavior and quite another to go to their page and say the same thing, especially if you aren't involved. Quietly unwatch her and tell your friends to do the same and move on. It's the more mature thing to do.

[shukivengeance.livejournal.com]

Precisely! Stirring up drama on her pages isn't going to make her come out of hiding (quite the opposite actually) or accomplish anything constructive.

[houndofloki.livejournal.com]

I have a quick question about this.

I did (about two weeks ago) post a comment to Cashoo's DA reminding her of a missed deadline and asking for contact. I am not sure she is checking the Asana account and she is banned from FA, but still favorites art semi-regularly on DA. It wasn't an overly aggressive post and I didn't mention AB. Is this still considered harassment? I did post a warning about her to this community.

Just need some clarification. I'm not trying to be part of a problem or get AB yanked, but I also don't want to let contact lapse completely and DA seems to be her most active page (I don't have an account on Hentai Foundation or Twitter)

[kerstin-orion.livejournal.com]

Customers are allowed to contact the artist (and vice versa) in any way they that works for them, including shouts. The only time we mods have a problem with people (who do business together) talking via shouts is if there is harassment or if Artists_Beware is openly mentioned.

Since you had business with Cashoo, as long as you don't mention A_B and don't go in guns blazing, you're just fine.

[trentxandrew.livejournal.com]

I wanted to reply to neolucky after they explained to me about this. I totally agree in this situation. I took a peek at her DA page and it's a hot mess over there.

[shukivengeance.livejournal.com]

Thanks for posting this Kerstin. Her DA in particular is a bloody trainwreck and it reflects poorly on all involved.

[neolucky.livejournal.com]

And we are still getting members reposting AB information over there, in fact I literally just had to warn two people.

Please, for the love of god, stop posting on her pages. Please please pleasssse.

[thecreativepen.livejournal.com]

Second this!

The page is already a hot mess, and it's page after page of people raging every day now. Having A_B members involved will put the community at risk.

As a member, LISTEN TO THE MODS. If you care about this community, don't do anything to jeopardize it. The point of A_B is to inform, not harass.

[neolucky.livejournal.com]

Thank you! That's exactly what I'm struggling to say, you put it more elegantly XD. This place is for mature discussion, information, professionalism. It's not about mobbing someone featured here no matter HOW bad they are.

[ladysnakebite.livejournal.com]

So, clarification on the rules please!

If someone has been posted to A_B, we're not allowed to mention that they've been posted about on their page?

[neolucky.livejournal.com]

That is correct. We'd prefer folks not do that.

[ladysnakebite.livejournal.com]

Fair enough! Thanks for the clarification.

[sigilgoat.livejournal.com]

I just wanted to add that if someone who knows the beware-ee contacts them politely and discretely, the moderation team would not be aware of this action.

The problem comes with the activity looking harassing or defaming, which looks bad on the community.

[theredangel.livejournal.com]

How are potential customers (people who are about to be scammed,) going to know about her horrible track record unless people voice their disgust on her pages?

For that matter.. how are people going to find out what and how useful A_B is unless they stumble upon a mention of it on someone like Pirate's page? That's how I got here in the beginning, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

I don't like trolling/harassing.. but in this specific case I think it's warranted. People are going to continue to lose money if something isn't said.

[kerstin-orion.livejournal.com]

Protecting our community trumps whatever people think they are accomplishing by posting on Cashoo's page. I can see your point about wanting to warn others, but that is not the way to go about it.

As for spreading the word about Artists-Beware, why not post about it in your own personal journals, and encourage others to do so? That is not only allowed, it is encouraged.

[theredangel.livejournal.com]

I can do that, but I'm more than certain my own pages don't get enough traffic to be an effective form of prevention.

I completely support the policies of A_B, and appreciate this community and it's service to artists and commissioners alike, however.. from what I've seen.. most artists/commissioners who are called out on their behaviour here are concerned about their reputation. Thanks to the A_B post, they work to resolve whatever situation they are in, or they at least learn a lesson. Pirate doesn't appear to be concerned at all.

Yes, I am aware there are a few people who get posted continuously here.. but I haven't seen a problem the size of Pirate in a long time. It's her willingness to continue to scam people that concerns me, and causes me to support unhappy posts on her various pages as warnings to anyone not interested in researching an artist and only sees pretty art and an artist full of false promises and lies.


Please note that I have not posted on her pages and do not plan to. I am only asking questions/discussing.

[neolucky.livejournal.com]

All of the above can be done privately, in private notes, emails and webpages. There is absolutely no reason to go storming onto an offending persons page and shout publicly about there issues on AB. None.

With how many outlets there are to share information, I'd think Cashoos abandoned DA page is the worst option. I'm all for letting the world know about scammers, but in a smart mature sort of way. Not flailing about on someones personal art-page hoping to garner attention. It looks bad for all of us in this community, and it also brings a sense of harassment.

If someone needs to contact another shown here or their clients, then they can do it privately. Doing it publicly creates a mob mentality and doesn't do anything to help the situation.

[theredangel.livejournal.com]

I agree. I just wish there were a more.. loud.. way to get the word out about her so that she can't scam anyone else. I feel really bad for anyone who's lost money on her.

Your icon is adorable. ^^

[houndofloki.livejournal.com]

Her DA actually isn't abandoned (she still favorites art fairly regularly on it - the most recent was yesterday) . She's banned from FA, there's no indication she still checks Asana, and not everyone has a Hentai Foundation account.

I don't think I'm storming anywhere or "flailing about" by posting a shout on her only remaining active page reminding her of a deadline and asking for contact. It's the only way I have managed to get responses form her thus far. Emails and private notes are completely (and repeatedly) ignored.

[sigilgoat.livejournal.com]

Your comment is coming off as out of context for this post and this thread.

This is about members of the community posting links to Cashoo's A_B page with very aggressive language that could very well be viewed as harassment.

We have never had an issue with a customer responsibly leaving a shout on anyone's page in regards to their commission.

[oceandezignz.livejournal.com]

This website (LJ) has a harassment policy, that A_B abides by strictly. And every member we've warned to NOT post on Cashoo's page is essentially breaking that policy by using A_B as the source of their "disgust".

This puts A_B in the postion of being labeled an attack dog site and subsequently shut down. And if we were, we wouldn't exactly be useful to anyone anymore.

And its no one else's business to be talking on Cashoo's page BUT previous burned clients, but at this rate even that isn't wise anymore.

There are ways to talk to people about Cashoo and her behavior without everyone and their corgi squatting her page like they are, no one is simply USING those ways and its potentially putting our comm in danger.

[spiffystuff.livejournal.com]

I am curious if anyone's tried to discuss with the LJ team what is/isn't harassment? Maybe I'm not looking in the right place but I can't seem to find much about community harassment policy in LJ FAQ.

[shukivengeance.livejournal.com]

Anything that provides a means for a community to contact a person (ie links to their pages, listing screennames) and unwanted contact happening as a result, is considered harassment to the LJ abuse team and has in the past led to communities being shut down.

With that in mind, we enforce a strict no contact rule rather than asking LJ how far our members can push it because quite frankly, we are not an attack community and you all should know better than to join (or form) the mob causing a drama trainwreck on cashoo's page.

Protecting our comm's existence comes first.

[spiffystuff.livejournal.com]

I'm not asking "how far can we push things" - I am against harassment. I just couldn't find much in lj's tos - as you say, some would consider /any/ kind of warning or link to the artist's page "harassment", so it seems difficult to balance an effective warning & communication with that.

[kerstin-orion.livejournal.com]

We use two things to determine what is harassment, things stated in LJ's FAQ here (http://www.livejournal.com/support/faq/108.html) and things that have occurred with other communities.

The sum of this is one reason we mods have decided to enforce a no-contact policy. (The other being that posting on a beware-ee's page can actually do more harm than good, and interfere with resolving the issue.)