An auction run by an untrustworthy person

[amcbeagle.livejournal.com]

A few days ago I see this posting in fursuit auctions community here on Live Journal :

(This was posted by a user called Outrayjus)

"Selling Corgi (Character) (X-post from my journal)


If anyone is interested; please reply below. He fits myself (6'2) 35" waist; and can be easily hemmed to a shorter size. He is a little old (5 years), so he needs minor repairs.

Comes with:
Foot Paws, Hand Paws, Head, Body, Collar ( with Ein tag )

I'm starting at $100.00
(This dosnt include shipping!)

I will keep it up until the 16th, 2008 @ 7pm EST

Minimum Bid Increase : $10.00

Current Bids:

$100.00 - kai_darkwolf, Ohio
$110.00 - Panama_fox, Flordia
$150.00 - Ford Sheppard, Ohio

Post Below (or PM) if you are interested...I will keep this up to date with the bids."

We all can see it says anyone interested in this suit has (had) to 7 pm yesterday (Wednesday 16th) to place a bid on it.

Here is my bid in a posting (note time):


amcbeagle
2008-01-16 11:59 pm UTC (link)
I want to bid $165.00 for Ein.

(Reply to this)

As everyone can see, my bid was placed at 6:59 pm EST (1 minute before 7) as per bid posting terms, plus it beat other bid by 15 dollars. So it would stand that I should win this suit, right? WRONG.

This was what Outrayjus told me this morning:

--- outrayjus wrote:
> I appreciate the enthusiasm, but because of the way that I ran the auction; I had already informed the 150.00 Person that they had won. Sadly, It would be impossible for me to take back that from them.
>
> Again, I apologize for the confusion.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Panda
> --- amcbeagle wrote:
> > Good morning,
> >
> > I just wanted to touch bases with you. I think I am able to adopt Ein. I made a bid at 6:59 pm (talk about cutting it close) for 165, which should top previous high bid of 150 that was posted.
> >
> > What is best way of getting money to you? A friend has a paypal account so I can cover it right away for you.
> >
> > Thanks again & he will be well taken care of :)

As much as I want to trust people with their word or promise. This is absurd. Why end an auction early & make that fact known? If it had ended early, it should have been made public rather than mislead people into thinking otherwise.

Just another fur not to give any credibility for anything. If this had been on eBay, I would have probably gone a bit over 200 dollars.

I just want to post this out as a warning to others NOT to trust anything outrayjus says.

Comments

[anjel-kitty.livejournal.com]

were there pictures of the suit? Maybe it was a scam of some sort... or there was some underhanded reason the auction when to that particular bidder...?

I do agree it seems a bit fishy that someone would close the auction when there was clearly someone who wanted to pay more for it.

Or perhaps the lower bidder contacted them privately and begged them to let them have the fursuit for the lower price? It would stand to reason they weren't friend because why put it on furbid to begin with if you were just going to sell it to a friend...

[delphinios.livejournal.com]

Look at the time the poster's bid was sent and the time the auction ended. The poster tried to snipe the auction and was denied. I say good for the auctioneer on this one.

[anjel-kitty.livejournal.com]

What do you mean snipe the auction?

[anjel-kitty.livejournal.com]

Oh I get it. No I hadn't noticed the time! Thank you for pointing that out

[delphinios.livejournal.com]

No worries. :)

[tk-creations.livejournal.com]

sniping is usually an e-bay term, but it refers to when the bidder comes in at the last possible second & bids, so that no one else has a chance to bid more.

[delphinios.livejournal.com]

Sniping is making a last-minute bid on an online auction designed to outbid others at the very last moment so they are unable to raise their bid to match or exceed that amount.

Wikipedia Entry on Action Sniping (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auction_snipe)

It's a disgusting, dishonest practice more often found on automated auction sites such as ebay or furbid (though they have ways of reducing the impact of auction sniping, such as automatic bid incrementing).

In this case, no bids came in for a long period of time before the 'official' end of the auction, and this guy tried to snipe the auction by bidding slightly more then the previous published bid, in the last 60 seconds. Since it's not an automatically timed auction, the auctioneer had already contacted the highest bidder and given it to them.

I give props to the auctioneer, as he chose to honor the spirit of the auction instead of caring about just the money and letting someone sneak an extra $15 in at the last second.

Personally, I'd hesitate to do business with anyone who would try and snipe an auction, as the act of doing so shows their morals are already compromised, and they aren't honest to begin with.

[anjel-kitty.livejournal.com]

Thank you for clarifying this for me.

[sicpuppy.livejournal.com]

I don't get it, but then I've never bid for anything in my life.
Whats wrong with getting in at the last minute? Isn't that what bidding is, a race to see who is lucky enough to get in there? Why should someone who wants an item NOT bid in the last minute? I don't get it.

[spiffystuff.livejournal.com]

I don't see anything *horrible* about it, per se, but trying to do it on a personal auction is silly.
Automatically timed auctions usually give you the nice option of adding a limit to how high you'll go, so that it will automatically bid against someone else, as long as you put in a higher price, even if you're not there.

[lastres0rt.livejournal.com]

Waiting until the end is one thing, but there's something disingenuous about bidding at the last absolute minute.

If you've been participating all along, it's one thing, but waiting to make your first and only bid at the end is sketchy because it implies that had you bid earlier, someone would have outbid you (and driven the price genuinely higher) thus your sniping costs the artist money because you tried to make demand look lower than it actually was.

[glowsheep.livejournal.com]

Auction sniping is morally corrupt?

Here's the thing about auctions- if you start bidding early, then everyone is going to keep trying to outbid you for however many days until the end of the auction and the price will keep going up for everyone, but if everyone who wants the item starts bidding as late as possible and tries to marginally outbid each other in the end, the winner will save money. Often what happens with auctions that a lot of people are bidding on is that the price gets inflated by people who keep outbidding each other.

Sure, it isn't in the best interest of the auctioneer for the bidder to win less money, but the point of buying off internet auctions over normal purchases is that you might be able to get a better price. Also, since it's an auction and not a flat out internet purchase, nobody has "dibs" on the item until the last minute of the auction is over. If you can't deal with the idea that by bidding on an item, you will not necessarily win it, then buy things directly or commission someone to make what you want.

Just my personal feelings about auctions, not like anyone cares X3

[thrivis.livejournal.com]

There's a "sportsmanship" aspect of it that has been jeopardized by the internet's convenience. In terms of the "spirit" of the auction folks keep referring to, bidding at the last possible second to bypass the tension of being outbid every now and then defeats the point of an auction environment for a lot of folks.

I agree with you that it is a legitimate tactic, and an economic tactic, I don't think it's wrong to do what you can to get an item, but I can also understand how folks could be upset about it. Just... kind of a case of sportsman -vs- consumer, I think.

[twitchwolf.livejournal.com]

Maybe sniping in a personally ran auction that's not timed by a computer doesn't work as well as sniping on Ebay?

[delphinios.livejournal.com]

Agreed. Sending the bid in at 6:59pm is pretty cheap.

While he may have been wrong on a technicality, I think he's in the right within the spirit of the auction, especially if he had received no bids in the hours previous to the auction end.

If the poster wanted it that badly, perhaps he should have made his bid known a couple of hours earlier.

I say this is a bad Artist's Beware post, and shouldn't be allowed to damage the fur's reputation because the poster attempted to snipe the auction and was denied.

[pinkpuppybelly.livejournal.com]

I concur. Panda is a Good Person.

[twitchwolf.livejournal.com]

Not to mention this "Outrayjus" is a good friend of mine, and is one of the best people I know. Trying to smear him over this is pretty low-blow.

[delphinios.livejournal.com]

And Panda's a friend of mine. So?
This isn't about friendships.. this is one fur being dishonest, and instead of accepting that his attempt to snipe an auction was denied, he goes on a smear campaign against someone who doesn't deserve it.

Your friend brought this matter to the 'internet court of social justice', and while he may be very respectable otherwise, he was in the wrong and is being called on it.

Perhaps he should have accepted the situation gracefully instead of airing the dirty laundry for us to judge.

I'm not trying to smear him any more then he tried to smear Panda for not allowing him to snipe the auction.

[twitchwolf.livejournal.com]

Was mentioning that based on smearing a good name over a failed sniping attempt. Kinda ridiculous and a lil on the abusive side.

[delphinios.livejournal.com]

Crap. My apologies. I misread the post. *chuckles* You said "outrayjus" and I read "amcbeagle" and wrote my reply as if you were for some reason siding with him and instead of Panda. :D

I'm griping against amcbeagle, not Panda. :D *laughs* I agree with you wholeheartedly. Panda (AKA outrayjus) is in the right in this, IMHO. :)

[pinkpuppybelly.livejournal.com]

Panda is a good guy. I've met him personally. He volunteers at the children's hospital with his suits, and the zoo, etc etc.

I would say if you'd put in your bid at even 6:55, you might have more of a case against him. But one minute? A minute that, by his personal clocks, could have already passed?

[dacnomaniac.livejournal.com]

Wow, nice public sour grapes tantrum.

[grygon.livejournal.com]

i don't get why so many people are complaining about sniping. there's been ebay items that i've wanted and have been in a bid-war with sometimes up to 3 other bidders, up to the very last SECONDS to see who'll win. maybe furbid needs a better clock and whoever is listed on the auction page as the winner is the winner, NOT whoever the artist decides to announce as winner.

next time, use ebay. :)

[shadsdf.livejournal.com]

It was done on LJ, not Furbid. No auction page.

[twitchwolf.livejournal.com]

There really wasn't a bidding war here either, was dead air until this person decided to wait until the last minute. Outrayjus probably would have handed it to him if it was say 10 or 5 mins before the auction end, not freaking 60 seconds.

Also since it was LiveJournal, it becomes dictated by the auctioneer's timekeeping, not the bidder's timekeeping since hey, I could change my system clock a minute or two back and bid if I wanted to. If he wanted it that bad, he should have bid at least 5-10 mins before the auction ended.

[saitenyo.livejournal.com]

I, too, am confused.

Since when is bidding at the last minute a terrible disgusting practice? I spent weeks trying to get a figurine on ebay and kept being outbid every time a new one was posted. The only way I was able to finally win one was by watching the auction closely at the end and sticking my bid in as late as possible so I wasn't outbid again.

I'm not really commenting on this particular issue because I guess it's dependent on the auctioneer's clock when the auction ends, but since when is bidding at the last minute on, say, Ebay a "disgusting, dishonest practice" at people above have said?

[atateatarin.livejournal.com]

Likewise. I collect memorabillia from a particular group, for instance, whose stuff is quite rare nowadays and goes extremely high in bidwars ($700 for a CD, $300 for a half-hour VHS, whut?). I just don't have that kind of money - and I don't know any people who do, either. But sometimes if I can shoot in a bid at the last minute I can get some of these things without bankrupting myself.
That in mind, I only really do it when I'm on the nearing-desparation side. I used to get sniped out of auctions all the time, so I can see how it'd make the sniped bidders feel a bit deflated, but I don't think it's dishonest.
Opportunistic, maybe, but not dishonest.


That said, I don't think automated sniper programs are at all fair. That's a nice bit of rotten. If one absolutely must place a last-minute bid, one should do it manually.


On an LJ auction though, it's just silly, for so many reasons XD

[gearpony.livejournal.com]

I don't get all the people whining either. Sniping is a decent tactic for getting things cheaper then if you bid early on.

I think just a lot of people get sniped and get all butthurt about it.

[growing-rose.livejournal.com]

Furbid, if he hasn't changed recently, will actually reset the clock and give your auction another ten minutes to keep people from waiting to the last minute to snipe it. Not sure if that's still in practice.

[ksharra.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure about Furbid, but http://www.furbuy.com gives the option of setting that. You can set it for no bid extension, 15 mins, an hour, etc.

[growing-rose.livejournal.com]

From what I remember, it was an automatic set up for the extension, but I haven't posted an auction in forever and a day, so it may have changed.

[theome.livejournal.com]

As I said before to you, this is a bit ridiculous. However, seeing this this time just upsets me even more. This is absolutely uncalled for you. You attempted to do a last-second bid on a non-automated auction. You posted literally at the last second of what appeared to be the set up for your computer. As for whether or not these were the exact times for his computer or not, that doesn't matter. The fact is, there is no legally binding contract for the auction he did. The winner was already announced.

Get over yourself. To jump at the fact that someone has given the auction into a different direction and to say that they are not to be trusted, that they lack credibility, etc. That's absolutely ridiculous.

I'm not usually one to post in this journal (not being my place as I'm not a commissioner typically, nor am I an artist), but to post on somewhere like here just because you took it personally that you didn't win an auction? Get. The. Fuck. Over. Your. Self.

[alcyione.livejournal.com]

LAWL. On artists_beware, the dumb posts come in pairs, it seems. XD

Those of us who bid fairly applaud Outrayjus. ^^

[thaily.livejournal.com]

Having been recently sniped by a re-seller's automated code I say "Yay for Outrayjus".

[kami-storme.livejournal.com]

Contact Furbid.
Get it fixed.
That's bullshit.
Ebay would ban for such a thing, Furbid should too.
Furbid has seemed to attract dishonesty lately and I have no idea why.
I used to depend on it until I had a little trend there for a while of people 'running away' after bidding without paying a dime.

[fiercereaper.livejournal.com]

This wasn't on Furbid, it was a personal auction someone did in a fur suit LJ community.

[thrivis.livejournal.com]

Hmm...

While I think folks are correct that sniping was unsportsmanlike (not illegal, just a frowned-upon tactic), I think Outrayjus should have edited the original post to reflect that they had already accepted the older offer someone placed.

Someone running an auction is always free to end it early and take the offer someone has made, but they must edit the auction to reflect this or else they'll get offers they have to turn down. Which... can come off as dishonesty when it is not intended.

[corraide.livejournal.com]

It seems kind of in bad taste, this post is.

[kabukihomewood.livejournal.com]

I have to chime in like others have to say that I know panda personally, he is a local fur whom I have known for several years. He is one of the kindest, most honest and generous people I have met in my life, and I consider myself blessed to have made his acquaintance. He has helped me immensely with my own fursuiting endeavors, and I can say with all surety that this is NOT a scam, and is probably a simple misunderstanding. Yes, he should have edited the post to reflect the end of the auction, but to label him as dishonest and untrustworthy over a simple oversight is going way too far.

[lilenth.livejournal.com]

One minute to bid end? Yup, you're most certainly wrong. Should have bid earlier. I have no sympathy for you.

To be frank it's an informal bidding system. Therefore you can't expect to snipe and stuff like you would on a full bidding site.

Next time put in your bid earlier and have something to post other than "I didn't get my way, he's mean" and people might take your comments seriously, because right now the only person's credibility you're damaging is your own by over-reacting.

Here is the full story

[outrayjus.livejournal.com]

Hi all :)

I can explain the story and what I did.

1) At 7:00pm my local time, I looked at the auction (http://community.livejournal.com/fursuitauctions/404060.html) and gave Ford Sheppard a phone call and told him that he had won for 150!

2) After getting home later that evening, I saw a message in my inbox for LJ from AMCBEAGLE. I regretfully informed him that I couldn't honor his bid. (as you can read)

3) Later the next day he had contacted me via inbox (of Livejournal), and told me that he was upset and would put up his story on his LJ and potentially artists_beware

4) I had sent him another two comments on his personal livejournal post. Both comments which he has not unfiltered. But I will post those comments here as I posted them in his livejournal post :

"I am terribly sorry you are angry; When I was going close the post and contact the user who bid 150; I didn't see your post. Just to be fair; I would've also allowed the other person to respond with a bid.

By the time your post showed up, the transaction had already taken place. This was an informal auction and not a place where I can really monitor bid-sniping.

Again, sorry for your loss"

"To be blunt; I would much rather get more money for it, but my clock at that time said 7pm. Regardless of the time differential or the time it takes for the server to update a post, I had already the contacted the winner at that time. It was an informal auction; and I am not running it against a server clock...


Again, I am sorry."


That is the end of the story, until I heard from a friend that he did post this on artists_beware. I am greatly disappointed and stressed that this has come this far, and due to his actions I am very wary of selling in a friendly manner. Ironically, I didn't want to sell it on a major payment system to try and reduce the stress...it looks as if my efforts to make a painless auction were for not.

Re: Here is the full story

[spiffystuff.livejournal.com]

It's cool that you're concerned, but don't let this guy upset you; I think it's obvious to everyone amcbeagle was in the wrong there, and a whiny jerk to boot.

Re: Here is the full story

[thrivis.livejournal.com]

A little off topic, but the costume is adorable. :D

Re: Here is the full story

[outrayjus.livejournal.com]

Thanks :D

Re: Here is the full story

[corraide.livejournal.com]

I don't think you have to worry to much about this post, but
good to see you voice your side too Panda. I think most can see
how things were really were:).

I can see how he be annoy, but acting on it in this manner is just a way to
make things worst for himself. Perhaps he should had at least vented to
some friends, then to appear foolish in front of everyone, and make
threats, and trying to cause harm, and not taking it out on you
base on situation, but out on a person, tossing the fault on someone
else other then them self or the situation. But hopefully everyone
can move on now, and learn from this.