How long is too long?

[thecreativepen.livejournal.com]

A lot of us have seen a situation where a person orders a commission, pays with Paypal, and then has the issue of not being able to pursue a chargeback because they are past the 45-day dispute timeframe. They, then post their situation to AB.

How long is too long for a commission? How long is too long for a queue? Does it really take an artist over 45 days to finish a commission?

This is a lot of what I've been asking myself when reading these posts, and I wanted to get your opinion. I understand there are a lot of factors that go into this; some artists have an easy time pumping out work and can handle a large queue. Others make it known it takes them forever to get work done, and the commissioner is aware of that ahead of time. But when does it become wrong?

Seeing some people wait over a year for a commission, paying ahead hundreds of dollars and never seeing WIPs, or having WIPs come at a snail's pace just doesn't seem like ethical business practice. Especially with Paypal, shouldn't the commissioner be more assertive to protect themselves within that 45 day period, and make it known that a refund/partial refund should be arranged for lack of work being completed within 45 days? Is it okay for them to ask for work to be done within a month?

Just something I've been thinking of today, I'd enjoy other input on this topic.

Comments

[skanrashke.livejournal.com]

30 days might work well for something small like an icon or sketch, but if someone is getting something large- custom clothing, fursuits, large oil paintings- or if the artist has a queue, then obviously a 45 day window is kind of silly.

[kayla-la.livejournal.com]

There's nothing wrong with asking for a deadline, but make sure it's expressed before you pay as some artists might charge a 'rush fee' for deadlines.

That said, if you're basically asking if it's okay to open claims a bit before 45 days are up, that would depend on the situation going in. If you buy from someone, knowing fully well they have a lengthy queue and it might take months for them to get to you, and then do a chargeback without warning, that's pretty crappy. But I suppose you could go 'I'd like to purchase from you, but in order to protect myself, I will open a claim right before the paypal deadline. Are you okay with that?' and if they aren't, you part ways and don't buy from them.

Expect to scare some artists off, though, doing that.

As for the more general question, there's just too many factors to straight up go 'Everyone should get all art done within a month, period'. It really is a case by case basis thing, at least for me. And I say this as someone who usually finishes their art within a matter of a week.

TL;DR, everything you propose is OK as long as you communicate this to the artist ahead of time and they agree with it. But I would expect to have difficulty purchasing from some artists because of it.

[mazz.livejournal.com]

I've been waiting 4 months for a commission and expect to continue waiting due to the length of the artists queue and how much work they get. I think I'm 5th on her list now.

I'm decently slow as well but I warn people of this, 45 days is actually not long to wait for full colored work. Granted for a quick sketch or an icon it's IMO to long but for a fully rendered piece of art waiting over 45 days is common.

[rusti-knight.livejournal.com]

This is what I'm thinking. A sketch from me? Two weeks, tops. Longer and I start getting super embarrassed about the wait.

An edge to edge, whole piece of bristol/illustration board is covered colored pencil or painting? Expect to be waiting the better part of six months at least. Especially since I both work full time and help run a printing/shirt biz at home.

I think it's a case by case basis, really. I might get impatient if I was waiting past the 45 days for a sketch, but not so much if I'd commissioned something on the larger side.

[exo-formicidae.livejournal.com]

I don't comission a whole lot of people, but for the few people I comission that have queue it have worked very nicely to pay when It's my turn or I'm next in line. Possible with a place holder fee, but nothing in the hundreds atleast.

As for big things such as suits, I've found that 30% non-refundable for materials up front is reasonable. Then half the amount when WIPs are shown, and the other half before I ship it. Atleast I feel taking it in steps fore the bigger things are a safer way.

[kestral-kitsune.livejournal.com]

I think it depends on what it is, how long their work load is and how fast they work... big stuff like suits, plushs, large scale art work it might take a bit longer also depending on how intricate the work is.

I am a slow slow artist due to issues with a long ongoing art block and I think the longest I've ever taken with a commission was 3-4 months, but I warned ahead if I didn't think I'd get it out fast, took payment for it when I was finished and kept in touch. but say, someone wants to pay upfront and they lemme know they're opening a claim in case I take too long and they want the money back, I'd be fine with it if they Let me know a head of time that that's what they're doing. never had it happen since I rarely get commissions due to listed reasons but I'm open to that idea.

THIS!

[thesquarefox.livejournal.com]

Im new to the furry community, but for my commissions I have always guaranteed that they will be done before the 45 day time limit for paypal. Its never even gotten close, but I tell my customers that if the wait time is approaching the deadline, they can go ahead and ask paypal to issue a refund and I wont dispute it. I feel its important to make the customer feel protected and I really feel bad for the ones who make bewares here and have waited months and months and months and YEARS EVEN on an artist. I think that long of a wait time is unacceptable :C

Re: THIS!

[keaalu.livejournal.com]

"if the wait time is approaching the deadline, they can go ahead and ask paypal to issue a refund and I wont dispute it."
- would it not be better (from both Paypal and customer service points of view) to get them to speak to you personally if they want a refund? I'd be worried it'd leave bad marks on my Paypal account, having disputes raised that ended up not being in my favour.

Re: THIS!

[thesquarefox.livejournal.com]

I guess I assume they would talk to me about it first, so maybe I should reword my ToS slightly, but since the longest Ive taken for a super larger and complex multi-character fullbody, etc etc pic was under a month, its never come up. I guess its something good to think about though. thanks

Re: THIS!

[nambroth.livejournal.com]

It's important to remember that different types of art can take different amounts of time. I've done paintings with 200+ hours in them before. Sometimes that is going to take longer than 45 days, or even more than a few months. There are too many variables to simply say "that long of a wait time is unacceptable" in all circumstances.

Re: THIS!

[thesquarefox.livejournal.com]

you're absolutely right. Sorry, I admit I was thinking in terms of people who do mostly single, or maybe a few character works, things that would take maybe like...ten hours tops. It seems like most of the art transactions talked about on AB are of that kind, so I had them in mind. Fursuits would take a long time too, I suppose.

Re: THIS!

[wolf-goat.livejournal.com]

I do single or 2 character works and I assure you they often take much longer than 10 hours. This is a bit of an odd generalisation.

Re: THIS!

[thesquarefox.livejournal.com]

youre right, ten hours is just a number I picked based on a generalization of a lot of AB's Ive seen (and I admit I am thinking mostly in terms of hobbyists or people doing commissions as side jobs). but if people do take much longer than 10+ hours to do commissions, they should still be getting through their que as quickly as possible. even if you have stunning artwork that takes many many hours, I think its bad practice to have a large number of slots open. I just feel like there isnt enough protection for customers. even if the artist is upfront about how long it will take, the customer is basically putting their faith into the artist with not a whole lot to help them get their cash back if the artist simply decides not to complete the job. and obviously, if it takes a long time to do, its probably something that will cost a lot more than a piece that takes less than 10 hours...i hope this makes sense. Im not trying to offend anyone. I just want things to be fair for everyone :C

Re: THIS!

[wolf-goat.livejournal.com]

I usually open 2-3 slots at a time, but they still often take longer than 45 days. I tell people the max time their commission will take, but it's often 12-20 weeks due to health issues and such. I don't think it's worth making people think they should panic over the 45 day mark because there are a huge number of honest artists with perfect records who go over 45 days - for any number of reasons. It's far more prudent for a commissioner to check places like artists_beware, check on how long the artist has been working, whether they've changed identities, how many commissions they have in their queue, and how many examples they have in their galleries etc.

I'm not having a go btw. Just explaining that there are genuine reasons and a lot of artists who operate just fine this way.

Re: THIS!

[thesquarefox.livejournal.com]

"Just explaining that there are genuine reasons and a lot of artists who operate just fine this way." Yes, Im sure that there are and if it works for you and your customers, then I am glad for you :) I think if the customer knows up front that the wait will be that long or longer and they dont mind, then thats more or less okay too (though I still wish paypal had a bit more protection from them...maybe some kind of clauses specifically for custom jobs that arent expected to be delvired for a while).

Re: THIS!

[bladespark.livejournal.com]

I suspect that you do art as a hobby, not as a full time source of income, yes?

I make plush and fursuits as a full time job, and if I tried to finish everything within 45 days, I don't think I'd be able to. Simply put, I'd have to turn away people and tell them "Sorry, come back and pay me after the project I'm working on now is done." And many, perhaps even most of them would meanwhile find somebody else, and pay them, and I'd lose customers. I'd waste a lot of time hunting for new customers after finishing each project, rather than just moving on to the next one already on my project list. And time spent hunting for customers is time I don't get paid for.

It works much better for me to have a long queue of customers who've paid their down payments. I am always clear up front that it's going to be a long wait, and I always stay in touch and I have a public list of where everybody is in the queue.

Quite a lot of artists who work full time keep long projects lists for similar reasons. Sure many of the really popular ones can afford to turn people away, but folks like me just can't. And yet turning away most people who approach me would be the only way to keep the queue down to 45 days.

So saying that a wait time longer than 45 days is unacceptable is assuming that everybody else is in the same situation you're in, and can do the same things you can do, and that's really not the case.

Re: THIS!

[thesquarefox.livejournal.com]

sorry sorry, as I said to nambroth just now, I wasnt considering all the various types of commissions that would take substantially longer than the standard portraits or couple's pics. My bad! didnt mean to offend! I do think that if someone is taking 45 days or more to do the kind of pics Im talking about, then it is worrying in that either they are quite slow (and should be upfront about it) or maybe they are biting off more than they can chew...or like a lot of the entires on this community...they just dont get their butts in gear (and hopefully I havent overlooked any aspects this time, but I consider 45 days enough time to get over a couple weeks of the occasional art block).

[houndofloki.livejournal.com]

I get the worry about the 45-day Paypal limit, especially if it's an artist you've never bought from before. You have a few options, though:

-try to work out a deadline
-ask if you can pay some "placeholder fee" to keep your spot in the queue, then pay the balance when you're up next.
-for expensive, long-timeframe stuff (like full paintings or fur suits or whatever) it's not unreasonable at all to ask for a payment plan.

If the artist isn't willing to work with you and wants to be paid in full upfront to be 15th in their queue, buying from them may not be a great idea.

oooO! I have an opinion on this!

[sabarika.livejournal.com]

I like the suggestion of a "placeholder fee" very much for clients waiting in a queue for a commission. This ensures the artist that the client is serious about wanting a spot and the client is also safe from losing the entirety of their payment if the artist does not complete the work. It sounds like a VERY practical solution, neither person is out very much and the placeholder fee can be states as nonrefundable since if an artist is offering slots it's assumed they are doing so for income and to have people back out unexpectedly when you really need the money is stressful to the artist & loes them revenue. A commissioner is justified in feeling uncomfortable paying 100% up front especially if it is a large amount of money and such a fee would make them feel secure that the artist can't rip them off for the full amount and that they won't lose the slot. Sounds like a good trust-basis that discourages both parties from scamming the other (artist wants the full amount obviously and commissioner doesn't want to LOSE money), honestly this SHOULD be implemented for those who have wait lists! :D

PERSONALLY I believe that no matter what the commission is for if you pay UP FRONT the full cost you deserve to have a solid verification and confirmation that the artist has begun your project or planned it out or something. I always did think it was an extremely unfair advantage artists had over commissioners to simply stall until the PayPal chargeback is no longer an option then never complete the work because there is no "real" consequence other than someone on the internet badmouthing you. I don't know of any furry that really pursued a refund through the legal system and especially not over a sub-$100 commission which I am assuming many are. How is the commissioner supposed to have a fair chance at a transaction here? It really is a risk they take every time they are not given an expected turnaround time/the artist isn't known for taking that long/when they prepay for a slot in the future/are told outright it will be longer than 45 days.

I feel that artists who have abused this system are just as scandalous as artists who beg for charity/donations and lie about the need for it or artists who straight-up scam. It's a seriously one-sided payment system and commissioners really need to be aware of their money transaction method's TERMS OF USE and especially the refund/chargeback/complaint deadlines! I know most of us just skip down and click Agree and sign up but you can't act surprised or victimized when it was YOUR responsibility to know the limitations of your financial servicer before using them... AKA ignorance is not an excuse to not know the consequences. But those people who are aware and give the artists benefit of the doubt or even REQUEST updates/proof of work/progress shots and are not given them within that chargeback period are the ones losing out big time here.

If your preferred method of payment is PayPal then there are several things I think everyone should be aware of or impliment:
1) KNOW the terms of service and read about how to report a scam, file a report, get a REFUND or CHARGEBACK and how LONG you have to do this as well as how to protect YOURSELF from this before you use that service to transfer money to someone else.

longpost is long

[sabarika.livejournal.com]

2) It is the commissioner's responsibility to ask or find out the artists' average or estimated time for completion. If it is near or OVER the 45 day chargeback limit then think very hard if you're willing to lose that money in case the deal goes sour. Commissioners - ask the artist to provide you with irrefutable proof or evidence that they have at the VERY least began your project in some way--be it a sketch or composite, a photo of materials being used or screencaps/receipts that supplies have been ordered, a shot of your desired order (like a printed description or ref sheet) laid next to a pile of the things that will be used to make it, SOMETHING to show that hey, you aren't just a name on a list that could be deleted or lost somewhere. I don't think an artist, even a busy one, should have a problem taking 5 minutes out of their day to block out the most simple of designs/sketches or show you that they have something prepared to begin your order.

3) ARTISTS if you want your commissioners to feel more comfortable if you make it known that the wait will be beyond the refund/chargeback date consider offering nonrefundable deposits for slots. You receive a small amount of money up-front for supplies and things you may need to work on the commission or a 'cushion' that will keep you afloat if a client backs out/is flaky. If a client is willing to pay a deposit for a slot to commission you for work it is much more likely that they won't leave you penniless after you finished the work because they'd also be out money.

4) As a COMMISSIONER ask if they will do this so you do not risk losing the ENTIRE sum of money if the artist does not fulfill their end of the work. I believe it is within your rights to say "no, I want the assurance of knowing that if something happens I can still get my money back" if an artist tries to demand you pay in full for work that you have any doubts of being completed or wish to commission for a slot in the future beyond the refund date of PayPal. If an artist insists you pay up front when you know the work won't be completed by then or are simply uncomfortable then that should be THEIR loss and I woud not trust their reasons for insisting you put all your money up at risk of losing it just for the chance of receiving something from them. That seems very one-sided to me and a commissioner deserves the right to get what is owed them if they are scammed.

If an artist's TOS clearly states no refunds then that's up the the client to decide what to do.
I also feel like artists demanding payments as "gift only" (as often as they can without PP suspending them) is unscrupulous or who force clients to pay an extra fee based on the percentage PayPal takes out for CC transactions so they get their full $20 or so and the client, who wanted a :"$20 commission" is now paying $20 and THEN some so the artist can circumvent the fees that are clearly stated in the TOS/rules of PP when they agreed to use that service....

I'm sorry to come off as being angry or bitchy, unwilling to compromise or listen - I really am interested in hearing ALL opinions of this I just feel very strongly that the amount of commissioners who are ripped off because they can't file a chargeback or complaint due to waiting MONTHS or even YEARS is totally ridiculous and some sort of checks and balances system should be in place to protect not JUST the clients but the artists as well! Nobody wants to fill slots they desperately need for their income only to have 5 people drop out or disappear when their art is completed. :C

I need to sleep so apologies if I'm being too harsh or biased, I'm rushing to finish this!

[nambroth.livejournal.com]

I understand that this community mostly has folks doing smaller commission work and the like, so please take this with a grain of salt. For those sorts of things, perhaps a short wait time is acceptable, or even demanded. But some of us really do need months to finish commissions. Some of my art has many hundreds of hours put into it. That sort of thing just isn't going to happen quickly, no matter how driven I am (and I do put in a lot of long hours on my art). I am fortunate enough to work full time on art. If I had to work another job and did art in my 'time off', surely the wait period would be all that much longer.

It's true that when I take on more "epic" works like this, I do payment plans and keep the customer informed and updated with WIPs. I am not trying to suggest that folks that take full payment then disappear for a year are in the right. I'm just trying to suggest that some art really can take a long time to make.

[houndofloki.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I think payment plans work out best for both parties with those kind of long-timeframe pieces. That way the artist doesn't feel rushed, and the buyer isn't stressing their money.

[sekhmet.livejournal.com]

I have to agree with Nambroth. Some of us just have particularly long art processes. In my case, I state before hand in my TOS that I work a part time job and thus turn around time for art takes longer than it would for a full time artist. I am upfront about this to my clients. So, in some cases, people do know in advance what they're getting into when hiring artists. Despite this, wip's are shown and updates are given as often as possible to keep clients in the loop.

[sabarika.livejournal.com]

This! If the artist is up front about a wait time and provides current information on the progress of the commission when requested or even when not prompted that's a good practice to implement.

[likeshine.livejournal.com]

speaking only from personal experience here, but i am a slow artist in that i obsess over the littlest things, and simple things can somehow take me a very long time. i've worked all day on a piece of art with nothing to show for it at the end of the day. going through the process of sketch/approval/lines/approval/etc can sometimes take that long based on response time and number of revisions.
so my TL;DR is that yes, it can, depending on several factors.

[rimpala.livejournal.com]

I normally do my commissions in stages now, and try to keep customers up to date when each milestone is reached. (For me, it's usually sketch -> clean lineart/inking -> flat color -> shades and highlights. I find that a lot of my customers are a lot more satisfied when there is a constant communication and seem to be more forgiving when a commission occasionally goes over a month because they know that work is actually being done one it. Diving the work into stages allows me to also work on more then one commission at a time.

I don't know about anyone else, but so far this method has turned out positive experiences for me.

[rimpala.livejournal.com]

ugh please excuse the horrendous typos...

[oceandezignz.livejournal.com]

FYI you can edit your comments on LJ, just as long as no one's replied to it. It use to be paid accounts only but then LJ gave the ability to everyone.

[rimpala.livejournal.com]

I hate doing it because I know sometimes people get email notices every time it happens.

[celestinaketzia.livejournal.com]

It depends on what I am doing and what else is on my plate. I keep my queue to less than ten items at a time, and will soon be limiting myself to no more than six hours worth of work a week.

1. Sketches and Icons are small items and I would feel terrible if we got into the three week mark on them. With that said, when I am the commissioner and I am faced with an artist who is approaching the 45 day deadline on a small item like this, I will usually cancel and move on. I'm normally very careful about who I commission and generally avoid people with long queues.

2. Full colors/ Illustrations/ Ref sheets can take anywhere from a month to a few months. I always make myself available to clients when working on items like this, and send WIP updates every few days to show the progress that has been done. I think with pieces like this most folks are okay with waiting so long as the artist is easy to communicate with and folks can see progress as it goes. I also hold down a part time job that can have surprise overtime without any prior warning, so I always make sure clients know this. There are some weeks where every day I go in with the knowledge that I have a 6 hour shift and won't leave until 10 - 12 hours later.

On the flip side, when I commission folks for big items like this I don't ask for updates but once every three to four weeks and generally just leave the artist be. With that said, I don't commission a lot of large works unless it's an artist that I've worked with extensively and have full faith that they can get the work done.

[mistresswolf.livejournal.com]

For me, I try to get my regular commissions done within a week. If I get multiple comic pages to do (one guy has me doing 4 at the moment) then I will space it out a little but I will try not to take more than a month. (edit: I also only ask for payment when the customers slot comes up and not way in advance.)

The 45 day thing can be really annoying. Especially if you commission something physical that has to be shipped to you... because the artist needs time to make it and the postal service has to have time to get it to you... and that can easily take more than 45 days.

[xubunturambles.livejournal.com]

I totally, get where you're coming from, but i must disagree on certain aspects. I know lots of artists are genuine and truthful in their practice, and it just naturally takes a month or two or even three to get around to and work on a commission >3>

[weirdmisty.livejournal.com]

On thing I've seen some artists doing is charging for things in stages. Generally the commission goes like this:

*customer pays amount for sketch
**artist draws sketch, presents it to customer for approval
*customer approves sketch, pays extra for lineart
**artist inks picture, presents for approval
*customer approves, pays for colors

etc, etc.

This, I think, is a really good (if slightly complicated) way of doing things because if an artist gets halfway through an image and some kind of complication arrives, they can just refund the most recent payment, for the potion of the work that's not done. And if you as a customer were doing just well with an artist when they suddenly disappeared, you can do a chargeback for the potion that's not done, and you're more likely to be within the time limit for doing so because you didn't pay that part of the commission until the previous bits were done.

[millislim.livejournal.com]

I don't think the length of time is really an issue. I don't touch a dime of the commissioner's money UNTIL the work is finished and everyone's happy because if I have to refund...regardless if it's before or after the 45 days I want it to be instantaneous. I feel the safest bet is to do your research on an artist...if they're known for coming thru on commissions would you still be antsy on day 44? Communication is so key. Of course an artist that paints traditionally should take longer than say an adoptable artist with templates. Asking beforehand about wait times and your rights if deadlines are missed will help to avoid some of the anxiety IMHO. If the answers from the artist are not satisfactory to you then move on to another artist.

[starcharmer.livejournal.com]

I think it depends on the kind of customer service they give. If you ask for an update and they ignore you, that's a a red flag.

I'm one of those artists that can take up to a year or more for some commissions while other commissions are done within a matter of days or weeks. It largely depends on the scale of the project and how busy my life is at the time and I regret that and am working to change it every day. My eventual goal is to get everything I do down to a turnaround time of 45 days or less specifically to coincide with the PayPal deadline. I want my customers to be protected that way.

But I'm also very transparent, reply to all notes and emails, am willing to work out deadlines and have no issue giving refunds if I'm asked.

So I guess my official standpoint is...depends on the artist. If you don't mind waiting and the artist is open, awesome. If the artist is closed off in the first couple months, I wouldn't risk it.

[jackrow.livejournal.com]

One complete month is absolutely enough, and I'd say: it's way too more than it could have been given to an optimal need of time to finish up, unless it's an overly realistic.

Work to be done within a month is ought to be a fair comfortable range to do things within.

As an artist myself, I declare my commissioners how long should they expect a work in progress picture be done, and keep them up dated, but if something else occurs like studies, real life issues, I let them know about what is going on and what to expect of. I think this is quite decent.