Question about commission etiquette - PogoRoo/Jivyra

[thespazkitty.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure if this really belongs here, as it's more of a personal gripe than a huge issue involving multiple people, but I recently commissioned PogoRoo (FA) / Jivyra (DA) for a 2-character picture, as I randomly stumbled across him and saw he was having a $10 sale to help him get a fursuit (he's since removed the journal entry and replaced it with his regular commission prices).

Cut because it's really long...sorry >.< But if you do read it and provide some tips, it's very much appreciated! =3


I sent him the following note with references on March 15th:

"Okay, I'm headache-free today, and I definitely decided I'm going to take you up on that cheap-commission offer to help a poor bobcat-goat-roo out with getting what is sure to be an adorable fursuit! ^^ A two-character colored non-yiffy art picture, if ya please - what address do I paypal the $12 to?
...[refs for a cougar and calico cat, including pictures]
As for poses, I tend to leave that up to the artist - just as long as there's some sort of 'boyfriend-girlfriend' feel to it.

Also, I doubt it'll take this long, but Tad's birthday is April 13th, so I'd like to have it done by then if at all possible - if not, that's fine; I certainly don't want you rushing and getting a crappier art piece than if you had taken your time on it for an immensely awesome-r pic. XD If you have any other questions, feel free to ask me!

Thanks again! ^^"

I paid as soon as he gave me his paypal address. He kept me relatively updated after he had started on it in the way of posting on my FA shoutboard that he had started working on it, and then when he had finished the sketch and was about to color it. He posted the final picture (I hadn't seen it before he posted it to his FA) at the end of March here:

http://www.furaffinity.net/view/1186259/ (for comparison, other pictures of our characters can be found on my FA here: http://www.furaffinity.net/user/spazkitty)

It's not a bad picture, it just...doesn't look like our characters very much. Two of the biggest missing details stood out to me immediately: Tad didn't even have the 'definitive' cougar markings on his muzzle, and my calico character didn't have any calico markings whatsoever -- she just looked like a brown/white cat.

So, I sent him a 'compliment sandwich':

"Hey! I saw you had posted my commission, and I first of all wanted to say thanks for doing it in the first place. =) The poses are really adorable and dynamic, and their expressions are really cute and fun. I don't like asking artists to change things in a commission (even if they're asking for tips), since I do prefer to see an artist's style come through in the work, but I had a couple of concerns that I figured I'd mention. The first thing I noticed is that Spaz doesn't really have any calico markings on her - she looks like just a brown and white cat without any contrasting darker blotches. [Looking at the 'main picture' everyone seems to reference (Dolphy's), the right arm does look like it's just got brown on it in the artist's interpretation of Spaz, but I do try and stress the fact that her patterns are variable, just as long as they're calico-blotches.] Also, Tad is missing the 'definitive' cougar "tear" markings on his muzzle. If it's not too much trouble, do you think you could spend an extra couple of minutes adding in these little details? Otherwise, I really love the coloring job you did, and again, the poses definitely have personality in them, so I appreciate your working on this. =3

Thanks!
Brooke"

He replied with:

"I didn't even read the whole thing, because the length indicates that I have to do it again. If I'm going to, you will have to wait for quite a while. I'm really sorry it's shitty, I'll do better. You have to understand, I kinda ripped myself off by charging people only $10 so it's difficult for me to have motivation to continue doing them. Kinda pisses me off that I did that in the first place. Point is, I'll do something new for you, just wait a while. I may even forget to, but I'll try to keep it in mind. Ugh. F*cking wasted all that time >_<"

So I replied with:

"You don't have to redo it. o.O The paragraph isn't just 'omg this sucks', it's telling you that I liked the poses and coloring job, but there are just 2 things that need to be tweaked - Tad's cougar 'tear' markings, and adding some darker blotches to Spaz to make her look like a calico. I figure that's a much easier fix than redoing it completely, since as a whole I do like it -- it's just those two things that really stood out as needing to be tweaked.

I'm fine waiting -- as I said in my original commission note, I'd rather get it later and you not feel rushed than the opposite.

I'm sorry this was such an ordeal for you. You had a right to refuse to do my commission if you didn't feel like drawing it."

Needless to say, I wasn't very pleased with the way he reacted to just a couple of tweak requests I had to make them actually look like the characters I commissioned the picture of -- maybe I'm just used to the type of commission artist who sends me a progress sketch and asks for advice on what to change, but his response didn't really seem too professional at all. He "didn't even read the whole thing"? And he "may forget" to give me a redo image, when all I really want is a couple of tweaks in the first place? I'm happy he finished it so quickly, but I didn't want a rushed job as a result. I'm not asking for a complete re-do, but I do want my paid commission to look like the characters I want in it, even if the commission was at sale price -- if I hadn't paid for it, it'd be an entirely different matter.

He replied the next day with "I didn't mean to sound mean or anything. I'll redo it, but it will be in the style I've been doing recently, which in my opinion, is cuter. :3" -- which is a /way/ different attitude than the first note had. o.O


So, I have several questions. How long is an appropriate wait before I contact him again and ask about the progress of the redo he offered, or at least bug him about adding those couple of details (the last mail was sent March 31st)? Is this a common cop-out of artists that don't want to fix a commission, and I should just suck it up and color in the missing things myself for my own personal benefit? =\

Furthermore, am I wrong in thinking a commissioner should always be professional and do a quality job even at sale prices (which is a voluntary act)? Am I just being nitpicky in thinking the commissioner is always right when big details are missing?

Comments

[tealizard.livejournal.com]

On the one hand, I've done that before- offered commissions at too cheap to try and get some cash flow in in an emergency, and ended up a bit buggered at MYSELF for underselling, and try to get the commissions done fast and appropriate-to-the-price.

He probably was just buggered at himself and it came across as being mean to you, and felt guilty for it. However, the "I didn't even read the whole thing" part is EXTREMELY unprofessional and to me, unacceptable as an artist. It's just a bad way to treat your customers.

Also as for "Am I just being nitpicky in thinking the commissioner is always right when big details are missing?", it depends on the situation. Because when you do commission someone it is up to the artist to give you their interpretation... sometimes features that are important to you are left out. This is why I always prefer it when my commissioners give me reference images AND a short writeup on what the important features are- The things that may stand out to the artist may stand out differently to you.

[thespazkitty.livejournal.com]

I understand him being upset about undercutting himself with prices, but I really don't think adding in a couple of /minor/ details is such a huge deal, even at sale prices. o.o Offering to redo it is excessive, and I'd never ask for a completely redone commission.

As I mentioned in another comment, I gave him several reference images, and also said that the calico's patterns are variable and up to the artist (as I do like seeing artistic interpretation) -- /as long as/ she has brown and black spots (I tend to run into more issues with her being drawn orange/black, but this was the first time I had a problem with missing one color entirely). Plus, cougar markings are pretty standard, and were shown in all of his refs as well. =\

Anyway, thanks for the comment!

[tealizard.livejournal.com]

Yeah, seriously- he'd save himself a lot of work by bothering to pay attention to his commissioners ._.

[thespazkitty.livejournal.com]

He'd have saved himself a lot of work by just not doing my commission in the first place, and then I could have taken my money elsewhere. >.

[monstersexual.livejournal.com]

Well, as much of a bummer as that is, it's only $12, I'd let it go :/
I think it's pretty lame he didn't add the few simple details, but perhaps your references weren't clear enough or something?

Otherwise, for more expensive commissions I think asking for progress is fine, as an artist I dont mind at all because I want the customer to be completley satisfied.
*though yes, it was really rude and unprofessional to say he didnt read it.
He sounds pretty stressed out, so I dont think he's trying to cheat you.

[thespazkitty.livejournal.com]

I made sure to include both as many reference pictures as I had (which all show Spaz with different patterns) as well as emphasizing the point that her patterns don't have to be exactly the same as another picture. I prefer seeing artistic interpretation, but it seemed like he didn't really do much in that way to me. =\

I'd really just like for him to dash on the cougar markings and a black spot or two on the calico (since I'd feel odd doing it myself, since I want it to be /his/ art, not mine), but I'm not sure that's going to happen. =\

Anyway, thanks for the comment!

[lashiec.livejournal.com]

Oh wow, I know this is OT, but your icon (and character in general) is adorable. :o

[thespazkitty.livejournal.com]

Aww, thanks! DevilKitten Yami did it. =3

[leon-dusk.livejournal.com]

Oh, hunny, I've known Jivyra for yeeears. That's just how he is. I wouldn't pay that man until AFTER I am happy with his work. xD

He's just... I'unno. There isn't any other way to explain him. He's just Jivy.

Y'can't trust him, he'll bitch at you one second, and love you the next, and has no sense of professionalism. And for an artist as cocky as him, he sure does lack any sense of anatomy. lmao.

You can try buggin' him about it, but I wouldn't expect results, honestly.

I'm sorry.

[thespazkitty.livejournal.com]

I'm kinda wishing I had waited to pay, but he was doing commissions in order of received payment. -.-

I'm gonna try bugging him again for sure (to at /least/ get those two little details adjusted, I'm not holding out for a redo), but I didn't want to do it too soon so that he gets irritated, but I also don't want to wait for months just to get this picture fixed by the artist himself. =\

Thanks for the comment, though. I'm glad to see I'm not the only person who's had issues with this -- it seemed someone else is also having to wait, too, judging by a comment they left on one of his DA journal entries. -.-

[leon-dusk.livejournal.com]

He's had a long history of having like the worst attitude of any artist on the internet. xD He's been known as an infamous troll for his attitude alone, let alone his actions. He's beyond two-faced. If you don't have something he wants, you're trash. It's just how he rolls. I'm sorry ya didn't know, hunny.

Go ahead and send him a message now, though, all he does half the time is drink, get high, and party, it's not like he has much responsibility.

And trust me, I wouldn't be saying any of this if I didn't know him personally.

[thespazkitty.livejournal.com]

No, I trust your word. I just hadn't really ever heard of/seen him around on the internet before (I've been using FA as a way of finding lesser-known artists and buying commissions from them if I like the style, rather than buying from the more "famous" artists), so I figured I'd give him a try. I haven't had any other problems with the other artists I've commissioned, fortunately.

I just wish he had said "no" and let me take my money elsewhere. =\

[leon-dusk.livejournal.com]

I don't commission people too often, but I do use FA to find lesser-known artists. I've made a lot of friends through FA. :) It's got a great community.

Watched you, btw. and I saw you at FWA. I should have gotten a picture with you.

I was running around with the Staff most of the time. lmao. Every time I heard someone yell "Cutie" or "Sexy" I was needed to help the staff. lmao. I think they used the name Leon MAYBE three times throughout the con. God, it was so embarrassing. lmao.

[grygon.livejournal.com]

As annoyed as you may be- you get what you pay for.

[thespazkitty.livejournal.com]

See, I think that if you're having a sale, you should still do the same quality work as other images in that tier at non-sale price. Otherwise, people are going to see your shoddier images and be less likely to commission you period.

But thanks for the comment, nonetheless.

[bladespark.livejournal.com]

I'm with you there.

The only time less money = less work with me is when you've purchased something which I have told you up front is on a sliding scale of quality. (And I only do that in one case anyhow, which is my random Loonakit plushes, where you give me whatever money you want to give, and I make you whatever I feel your money is worth, and this is all spelled out up front.) Otherwise getting it on sale = exact same attention to detail as getting it full price.

Otherwise it's not a sale is it? A sale is offering the same thing for less money. Offering less work for less money is just called having a sliding pricing structure!

[thespazkitty.livejournal.com]

"Otherwise it's not a sale is it? A sale is offering the same thing for less money."

Exactly what I was trying to convey, but you did it better. XD When I purchase clothing on sale, I don't expect it to have rips and tears all over it, unless I'm told up front that it has some flaw in it. Same with art.

[grygon.livejournal.com]

Well, you can't exactly compare sales prices of an artist's hard work to the sales at JC Penny. It's very hard to maintain motivation and inspiration when you're getting paid dirtfuckingcheap. That's why it's called commission and not JC Penny Martin Luther King Day weekend sale.

You get what you pay for when you commission someone.

[thespazkitty.livejournal.com]

Again, if he was starting to feel 'omg i hate this so much' with the cheap prices, he could have easily refused to do my commission and I would have unbegrudgingly taken my money elsewhere. Or he should have stopped doing sales at that price and raised his prices for future commissioners.

Regardless, it's not fair to either the artist or the commissioner if the artist undercuts himself and then takes it out on the purchaser by not even bothering to add in a couple of big missing details after the fact and responding so rudely.

[bladespark.livejournal.com]

So are you saying it's acceptable for an artist to do quality work at full price, then use that previous work to lure people in, and promise people that exact same quality work at a "sale" price, and not deliver on that promise, just because the price was less?

In my book that's not ethical at all. If you're going to tell people that they will get your art, and use your previous, high quality art as an example, and then deliver crap, just because YOU agreed to take less money, that's a scam, and a cheat, and a seriously dishonest practice.

Nobody forced this guy to lower his prices. He chose to. And he didn't state that buyers who paid less would get less quality. So it's HIS choice, and HIS problem. If he wants to only deliver lower quality at a lower price, he needs to honestly say so up front.

[sarakazi.livejournal.com]

That's really sucky that he didn't get the details right. I didn't get everything right on my pic the first time either, but I happily corrected it. It's not that big of a deal to change minor stuff like that. It wouldn't take more than a few minutes to do.

[snobahr.livejournal.com]

Funny you mention that... Because I'm a little rusty on my photoshop skills, I took SpazKitty's picture and modded it a little. Spaz, if you want to email me, I'll send it to you (snobahr at gmail dot com). The calico is decent, but I'm kinda meh on the cougar markings. Those are a pain to do if one doesn't often do them to start with. This would be my first time :D

[thespazkitty.livejournal.com]

Aww, that's nice of you. ^^

[kalika-tybera.livejournal.com]

As an artist who also does sales myself sometimes, I don't think his quality should drop just because it's a "sale". The point of a sale is to get a good deal, not to pay for something lesser than what is advertised.
I also think the way you replied was perfectly polite, and I would have just added the requested details rather than spazzing and then re-doing the whole thing... cougar muzzle markings and darker blotches are a very quick and easy fix...I dunno.

He doesn't sound very professional, in my opinion, I really hope you get the promised art next time :/

[thespazkitty.livejournal.com]

Thankfully, I've had no other problems with the 'unknown' artists I've commissioned on FA so far. ^^

Thanks for your comment!

[thrivis.livejournal.com]

LOL @ "I didn't even read the whole thing"

Honestly. That's just silly. AND it makes you wonder if he read the last note you sent him at all too.

You never even implied you wanted it redrawn. I don't get why the artist is so stuck on the DRAWING. When all that's needed is some color marks.

Maybe next time you contact him, make it real simple and short like this:

"Can you do these:

Cougar = add tear marks

Calico = add three or four random dark splotches

I don't need it redrawn, I just need the markings!"

[thespazkitty.livejournal.com]

Heh, that's probably a good idea.

[thaily.livejournal.com]

He offered to redo it, so I'm not sure why you're complaining? O_o

[thespazkitty.livejournal.com]

Because he said right after his offer to redo it that he "might even forget" to do it. Not exactly professional, as it doesn't let me know where I stand -- am I supposed to be actually waiting on a new picture (with the vague timeline of "you might have to wait a while"), or is he just using that as an excuse to get me off his back about asking him to add those couple of tweaks?

[tanidareal.livejournal.com]

1. This was pretty unprofessional from him uploading a commission without even showing it to you before. If he does not care about such cheap commissions, he should not offer them.

2. His first answer was... wow. I am glad I never got such an impolite and unprofessional answer. o.O
The drawing was digital, right? (I can't check it from here as FA is blocked at work) So a good artist should keep the original file (Photoshop, whatever), so that you can easily make changes. At least until it's approved.

> Furthermore, am I wrong in thinking a commissioner
> should always be professional and do a quality job
> even at sale prices (which is a voluntary act)?

Yes, I think so. Especially when it comes to "mistakes" the artist made. If you are offering a cheap pencil sketch, a commissioner can of course not expect a large full background pencil drawing (unless this was discussed before). That's why it is always very important to define all details at the beginning (what you get).

> Am I just being nitpicky in thinking the commissioner
> is always right when big details are missing?

It depends on what has been discussed before.

If you give an arist references (with all infos), and he's drawing your character(s) wrong, he really should fix it, because he messed it up. Even if you forgot a little detail you didn't mention before (like an ear ring, a little marking, etc.), and it is still fixable (especially on digital art), I - as the artist - would of course still add it. I want commissioners to be content, otherwise I would feel bad as hell.

But, if the commissioner forgot something very important or wants big changes at the end (like an additional character, new clothes, a different background, etc.), these would be big changes that I would charge extra costs for, because it's the commissioners "fault" if he forgot mentioning it at the beginning.

I also wrote down my regular commission process on my website (http://www.tanidareal.com), to make sure everybody knows what he gets if he commissions me. This avoids a lot of trouble. :)

This is how I usually do it:

1. Draw sketch, show the sketch - if it's OK, continue (this is the point until when bigger changes still can be made)
2. Payment
3. When payment arrived, continue coloring
4. Show picture - if it's fine, send the commission file. If it still needs to be corrected - I will do it (at this point, I will only accept adjust corrections, as mentioned above)

[thespazkitty.livejournal.com]

Yeah...I never saw anything of the picture until he had uploaded it to his FA. No sketch, no before-uploading 'is this okay?', nothing. Which is why I was taken by surprise. o.o

And yes, it was digital. And the fixes wouldn't even need layers -- just color on a couple of details and you're done.

Thanks for your reply. =3

[dae.livejournal.com]

Hey sweetheart!

I'm sorry you got treated like that by this chap-- That's a bit off-colour, frankly. The big "$1-$10" sale I did recently banked me quite a few commissions, and in my eyes at least that's always nice... Period. I have a bunch of people who gave me their money, at prices that I regulated, and want me to draw something pretty for them, so I will.

Those are the rules whether it's a $100 commission or a $1 commission-- If I can't make it what they wanted(Within the realms of reason, of course), then I don't DO it. I won't lie, some of those commissioners have had to be patient with me, it's already been a couple of weeks, but I'd rather take a while and give them what they asked me for than crank it out quick and forcefully and have it look like hell, you know?

In short, his behavior was uncalled-for, and I'm sorry you found yourself ill-treated by him. I'm sure it was just stress, but still.

[thespazkitty.livejournal.com]

Exactly. If you're doing a sale, it's the artist's responsibility to make sure he/she is not undercutting themselves. And if you do, you don't take it out on the commissioners by doing shoddy jobs -- it's not their fault.

And like I emphasized in my mails to him, I'd much rather wait for a better quality picture than get a rushed crapjob. The picture wasn't /bad/...I just wish he had taken a little more time getting the characters to look like us. =\

[hollso.livejournal.com]

I think he's being unprofessional about a lot of things. Not reading the whole message:
"I didn't even read the whole thing, because the length indicates that I have to do it again." No it doesn't...
The guy should know his own method of creating and should know how easy adding stuff like that can be. Lasso tool, paint brush, three splodges, job's a good'un. He comes across as very lazy to me.
Also swearing. I'm not a big fan of swearing, but swearing at a person who's give you money, even just in conversation? No no no. Perhaps he's never heard of customer service?
His motivation should be making you happy and doing a good professional job. Especially if he wants to do illustration as a career in the future.
To quote Tanidareal: I want commissioners to be content, otherwise I would feel bad as hell.
Me too, but by the sounds of it, this guy doesn't. Which conforms with what Leon_dusk said.
I did a $15 commission lately and had a whale of a time. Cost didn't mean anything (for me, it would only be £7ish. I spend that at the pub on a sunday) but in the end is was a great picture too (ok... I got paid double too)
Sorry for putting my own story in there...
Long-comment-short, this guy is definately just doing it for the money and not for the art. It's his own silly fault for charging what he thinks it too little.

[thespazkitty.livejournal.com]

I know! I didn't think asking him to add in a couple of blotches would be such a huge ordeal. I think maybe my compliment sandwich was just a bad idea with him, since maybe if I had just mailed him with "Hey, love the picture, but can you just fix A and B?" he wouldn't have freaked the hell out. o.o

[thegentilcat.livejournal.com]

You know, if you've already paid for the piece (making it yours) and it's as completed as he's likely going to get (based on the replies he left for you) - why not see if you can find someone else with experience in Photoshop to make the edits that you need?

Hell, I'll make the edits for you, free of charge (and add some shading to boot - just to give it more depth).

[thespazkitty.livejournal.com]

I mentioned that in my original post -- I just feel weird about editing other artists' works since it's not /my/ work...though since I have paid for it, I suppose that does make it mine. =3

If you're willing to do that, I'd be much appreciative! But I certainly wouldn't want you going out of your way. ^^

[fiztheancient.livejournal.com]

If he doesn't edit it, send him a simple note telling him what to change. If he refuses, ask if you can edit it yourself lol.

I've gone back and changed messed up details on $5 dollar commissions before

[korth-dono.livejournal.com]

He is a nutcase and a jerk OUTSIDE of commissions as well, I wouldn't expect much from him. I IM'd him when he gave out his new screen name and was like "IM ME" because he seemed cool and nice, and got a good response at first. Then, what I find hilarious, he turned into a complete jerk and called me a furfag around the time I mentioned I had a fursuit and was going to get another sometime soon. (And now he apparently WANTS one? lulz) Also throwing around things like I was "using him" to get rid of my boredom.

Long story short.
He's a fsking nutcase, GTFO while you can D:

[damordecai.livejournal.com]

I don't think anyone is getting anything now.

rOfL

[digivolution.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry, but I lol'd