Artist: Kazecat

[sinatra-davaro.livejournal.com]

WHO: Kazecat

WHERE: http://www.furaffinity.net/user/kazecat

WHAT: A digital image of my character as a lady, showing off her curves. Unfortunately I did not think to screencap the request form at the time as I did not know there would be a problem, but that is what I requested. Additional details were to be worked out in stream, which is where Kazecat does all of his work.

WHEN: Sept 26: original request submitted
Sept 30: stream occured
Oct 1: disagreement



PROOF: Screencap of the disagreement: http://i.imgur.com/YaJd56J.png
(Please note, I was too upset to remember to screencap the end of the argument before blocking Kazecat on Skype, so the end of the cap is me posting what he said to my friend instead. There are some missing bits of what I said back to him, but all my responses were civil and calm.)

Image I received (NSFW, fatfur): http://i.imgur.com/t6VqZWc.jpg

His journal showing me on his list of slots, with 'DIDN'T PAY' in red lettering beside my name: http://i.imgur.com/uhWMu7b.png

EXPLAIN: On September 26 I submitted a commission request form. I gave minimal details on the understanding that further details would be worked out in-stream. The agreed-upon price for the commission was $45 USD. I heard nothing from Kazecat except that I was 'coming up soon'. On September 30 I noticed he was streaming (he did not notify me anywhere that he was doing so) and popped in to see what he was working on. It turned out to be my picture, which he had begun without any details from me, and seemed to have just decided on his own what to draw. He had included his character in a sexual situation with mine. I had requested a solo picture and am not comfortable having my character in sexual situations with others except under special circumstances (very close friends, etc). Dismayed, I told him I would message him about the picture later and left the stream, as the picture was nearly completed. The next day I contacted him, as shown in the screencaps above. Kazecat accepts payment after completion; however, I do not feel it is fair to demand payment for a picture I did not ask for. He was willing to edit out his character for free, but I was too unhappy with the image. I was willing to give a small tip ($5 USD or so, though I did not tell him the exact amount) in exchange for a redraw. He demanded $15 extra for the redraw, which I was not willing to pay when the first image was, in my opinion, not something I had ever asked for and amounted more to gift or fan art of my character than a commission. When I refused, he began to become angrier and more aggressive. He threatened to 'blacklist' me and warn other artists not to do business with me. At this point I had already been planning to put him on A_B so this is not a retaliation in any way. When I did not change my mind upon being threatened, he began to tell me that I was obligated to pay him. I disagreed, asked him not to contact me again, and when he kept talking to me, I blocked him on Skype.

I am not sure where to go from here, I have an image I am extremely unhappy with and would not like to have displayed online. I have an artist that refuses to redraw the offending image and shows no signs of wanting to take down the image. Overall it feels extremely unprofessional to me and I am deeply uncomfortable with the interaction.

Comments

[frisket17.livejournal.com]

I feel like we need your first message(s) detailing the engagement of artist for said commissions... and potentially where they offered it.

Depending on the wording, there may have been a misunderstanding (on both parts). IE: You mentioned you gave minimal details. Without seeing the full message you provided, it seems a little hard to see what the artist may have assumed.

I'm not placing fault one way or another, but I'd definitely like to see more information, personally, instead of purely the aftermath. It'd give a bit more detail to the situation, and if something was missed by one person or another.

Good luck none the less :)

[celestinaketzia.livejournal.com]

Judging from the screencap of the journal, it looks like it was a form that was submitted. I don't think the client would have that unless the artist can release it.

[kamilamutt.livejournal.com]

While I think you should have told the artist when you noticed on the livestream that that wasn't what you asked for, I also think you're right, & you don't really owe the artist any payment, since they delivered something completely different from what you asked for.

Demanding compensation for something you didn't request sounds unreasonable to me, to be honest.
I'm sorry you had to deal with that.

[teekchan.livejournal.com]

As above said, it's a bit hard to judge as we cannot see what you originally posted.

If it's just something like 'Hey I'd like to reserve a slot' it's one story, but if you went in to detail at all, it's another.
Although they are still in the wrong for adding the extra character without asking, if the pose of your character is what you asked for via note, even if you wanted to give more detail, you should have taken them up on editing the character out. But again, I can't really say anything either way as there's no original request note.

[celestinaketzia.livejournal.com]

This is super dodgy behavior. Honestly, with the way a lot of members of the fandom are connected to their personal characters, I don't blame you for not wanting the other character simply edited out. I know if I were in your position, I most certainly would not want a constant reminder as to how my character had been put in that situation without my consent.

This beware is well warranted.

Also as a side note: Original request or not (it appears to have been a form), the artist admits the character was added in "as a bonus".

[oceandezignz.livejournal.com]

All signs point to the OP having to have filled out a commission form which they do not have access to, but from the repeated mentioning of 'solo art' I think any other details are minor.

OP wanted a SOLO image, the artist knew this from the start it seems.

Artist tried to treat adding their character into the art as a bonus. This was not asked for by the client, even then with such a BIG THING unless the two are great big thinkalike buddies, asking to add their own character to it should have been what happened from the get go.

OP has every right not to pay for what they did not ask for. The artist has zero grounds to shame-game them into paying when the product delivered was not satisfactory to the client.

[sleetfury.livejournal.com]

Agreed, plus OP offered to pay plus tip for a redo if I'm reading right and they went off on one. Gross.

[thatdangcat.livejournal.com]

I wonder, if the artist were to take it down and make it into a ych for both char spots, then that would take down the original (since I saw something about the artist refusing to remove the final image) but would also give them some sort of compensation for work being done too (going for both sides here since I've had things like this happen for poses, too). But I'm not to sure how they are with doing them sort of things, but it's an idea.

Edit: Added more information. I can't tell if this post of mine is confusing or not. Lol

[vexstacy.livejournal.com]

Honestly no matter WHAT kind of commission or commission process was agreed to.

It is very clearly stated that at some point, in beginning stages it was blatantly obvious that the commissioner wanted a solo image.

So wing it, stream com, standard com, sale com.
Doesn't matter.
The artist gave them something the OP did not want or even ask for.

Even in pieces I do that do not give wip checks( which are very few and far between I even work with people to stream with them if asked) I would never blatantly disregard what was asked of me.

And if details were meant to be given at a later date then the artist should have waited or expressed that all details need to be given up front like i've seen many artists do.

I'd be just as furious.
Especially if its a char i'm in no way comfortable with being in duo images. I don't feel the 'edit' option should have come up. It's like getting the wrong burger entirely and the offer to scrape the cheese off a burger you never even wanted in the first place.

I put blame on the artist unless the artist wants to suddenly shows proof that upon commissioning them they get 1000% artistic freedom or something drastic like that.

So far this seems like a beware well warranted.

[timelapsedecay.livejournal.com]

I can agree that you should have talked to the artist when you got to the stream, but honestly I see that as your only real mistake here.

Firstly, discussing details in-stream seems alarmingly unreliable. Unless the artist is keeping logs of all the chatting in-stream, they have no way to document or keep track of what's asked of them. Barring clients from input on their comm UNLESS they're present in the stream seems extremely unfair, too.
Also, what would the point be of telling a client to give details/ask for changes ONLY during the stream, then not even notify them of the stream going on?? There's NO business sense in that, in my opinion. What did the artist expect would happen?
But to me the biggest transgression is the random, nonsensical insert of their own OC. That's wildly unacceptable. I can't honestly conceive the reasons someone might do this without asking. Even WITHOUT that character, this pose/image is NOT the OP's character "showing off her curves". Assuming that's exactly what the original request form called for, it's not even remotely close.

[kattotang.livejournal.com]

"Barring clients from input on their comm UNLESS they're present in the stream seems extremely unfair, too.
Also, what would the point be of telling a client to give details/ask for changes ONLY during the stream, then not even notify them of the stream going on??"

This, so much. As an artist who often streams commissions, I find it extremely ridiculous for Kazecat to expect all details in-stream, and to say to the OP "You know I stream every night and your slot was coming up soon." Even if OP knew about streams being nightly, how in the world were they supposed to know exactly when streams started or that their slot was going to be worked on that night? Not only that, but it's really presumptuous for them to assume OP has no other life obligations to attend to and is just waiting around the stream, hoping to see their commission be drawn. Artists who like to allow input from commissioners in-stream should be setting up a stream time catered to the client's schedule.

[wuvvumsoc.livejournal.com]

I wonder how they figured this was going to be a bonus? He's drawing his own character so it's not like he's giving something complimentary to you by making it a multi-character pic. :/

[jessibean.livejournal.com]

I don't blame you for feeling extremely uncomfortable. If I commissioned a solo piece of one of my OCs and the artist took the liberty to put their own character not only IN the picture, but in a sexual position... that's just an INCREDIBLY uncomfortable position to put the commissioner in. Especially when it's completely different from what you ordered in the first place. It makes it seem like the artist was doing the picture more for themselves than for you, and you're paying them for art THEY wanted, rather than art you wanted.

[jane vakarian (from livejournal.com)]

Oooph.
Beware indeed.

[jane vakarian (from livejournal.com)]

Also the tone on his FA page irks me.
It's disappointing OP gets a bad rep cause he won't take responsibility.

[mazzy techna (from livejournal.com)]

though I do not agree with not paying artists for the work they do (as an artist myself) I do agree you should not have to pay for that.

I would of hated to have my character drawn with someone eles without my consent , and this is without your consent , you never asked for that.

the artist should have to take it down , you do not wish your fursona to be posted like that.

[thaily.livejournal.com]

" He had included his character in a sexual situation with mine. "

Whoa, that's creepy. And weird.
Why would he make more work for himself by drawing in an extra character, and do so without permission?

And the edit? Pretty sure that counts as a "call out journal"-esque breach of FA's TOS. You need to report that. In fact I'm pretty sure you can have the image taken down as harassment.

I certainly wouldn't pay for the privilege of getting creeped on.

[armaina.livejournal.com]

I understand why everyone is asking for the initial commission form, but if you actually read the dialog, it corroborates the story that the character was requested to be solo from the start.
"I only added jiggly since I thought that would be a bonus"

The artist should have scheduled the stream if he had intended to do the whole thing via stream. It's awfully hard to come in at half completion and say 'this is all wrong' in front of people you don't know who might be friends of the artist.

"I'll warn other artists about you, are you sure this is the action you want to take"
Seriously? this is the response? 'Pay me for something I blatantly did incorrectly or I'll tell everyone not to work with you.' His attitude about this is awful and he really doesn't get the point that editing won't work because it's still a sexually implied pose. If the request truly was 'showing off curves' and not 'presenting' then the pose doesn't even work in the first place.

And geeze, could he at least edit it to not look like your character if he's going to make a big public fuss about it not being paid for?? What a frustrating artist to worth with :/ certainly worth the warning.

[dragroons.livejournal.com]

Beware well warranted, and I do believe you can have something done about the image due to him claiming you never payed with your name right above it, I think that does qualify as harassment? Even without the original order form, you stating over and over again for a SOLO IMAGE should've been enough. Him just going out of his way to randomly throw in his character in a sexual situation is in poor tastes.

Also? If a commission is meant to be done in-stream for the convenience of both the commissioner and the commissioned to work out details of the image, Why would you NOT contact the person you'd be streaming for? I don't understand that part at all, solely for that I think the beware is FULLY well warranted.

[jos-if.livejournal.com]

Shame he's a great artist but that kind of behavior is inexcusable.
I understand that he thought it would be a bonus seeing as so many people like his characters but he really should have told you something before hand and not just put her in, especially when it involves that kind of act. I feel that this is defiantly a warranted beware.

[roxyfur.livejournal.com]

Is everybody missing that the artist was willing to edit out their character for free? That would essentially make this a solo pin-up piece, and could put it in the range of acceptable artwork. I understand that adding a character when they client did not want that is wrong, but the artist was going out of their way to fix the problem. It's possible that they get requests of this sort often, so they made a poor judgement and assumed the client would like it. This piece could very easily be edited to make it into a solo piece. I feel like this would have been a good solution to the issue, and then the artist wouldn't have ended up out of payment.

I think we need to be able to see the form submission to know for sure. It's possible that the "minimal description" OP left gave no indication that it was incomplete. If that's the case, then the only thing the artist did that was wrong is add a character.

I also saw that the artist has the times they stream written on their page. So that's not really an unscheduled stream. There's a lot of information missing from this beware, I think. I'd like to see if the artist still has a copy of the form submission.

[oceandezignz.livejournal.com]

Yes I saw that and still side with the OP. Even if the edits happened, the OP is obviously upset and not satisfied, why stick them with an edited piece they'll still in the end hate?

Kazecat losing money on this is their fault alone, their bad judgement tude and threats) = unhappy client because product delivered wasn't what was ordered in the least.

It sucks for Kazecat, but its a learning experience for them too. Ask first always (especially if you're doing pay on completion) and for the OP get all the details there and don't be afraid to embarrass an artist who took a mile without being given an inch.

[norsepaw.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the beware.
I be scared if I commissioned him and got a "bonus" I never asked for.

[ctk-hullo.livejournal.com]

Yeah, this. Adding a whole extra character, unasked for, is pretty weird behaviour.

[pinstripedtiger.livejournal.com]

Dangit, hit backspace and my comment got ate.

There's not much I can say that hasn't already been said, but I do want to say it's really skeevy the artist is leaving the commission up when the commissioner TOLD THEM makes them very uncomfortable. This, plus the "bonus" comment, kinda makes me think it was drawn more for the artist's personal pleasure.

I'm all for artists getting paid, but this isn't as simple as "you drew x totally wrong". Sure, the character COULD be edited out, but I'm sure the commissioner would see it and remember the initial offending image regardless.

Honestly, I think Kazecat should redraw, or cut his losses. This can't be fixed with simple edits. The commissioner shouldn't be stuck with an image that would make them THAT uncomfortable.

It may be within Kazecat's legal rights to keep their artwork up in the gallery, but it's alarming to leave up something of that nature without the consent of the commissioner. It's not exactly uncommon for fursonas/personal characters to be, well. Personal.

They could easily remake that cash with a YCH if they wanted to.

[armaina.livejournal.com]

"kinda makes me think it was drawn more for the artist's personal pleasure."

That's basically the same vibe I get out of this as well :/

(frozen)

[dragroons.livejournal.com]

It Appears he/or someone else, has removed the image from his gallery, atleast.

(frozen)

[celestinaketzia.livejournal.com]

The "unpaid" tag on the journal has also been removed.

(frozen) MOD COMMENT

[celestinaketzia.livejournal.com]

Do not continue threads that we have frozen.

[exo-formicidae.livejournal.com]

I'm glad the image is at least taken down and the shaming gone from the journal - but the whole ordeal sure left an icky aftertaste for the artist.

I won't get too involved in this, but commenting on other people's pages via shouts, with a link to this was a super bad idea tayto - even if just to enlighten people. the rules exist for a reason - also obs sorry didn't see the frozen part. Sorry mods!

[celestinaketzia.livejournal.com]

Oh? Do you have links to whom the links were left at?

[zetacheesecake (from livejournal.com)]

Kazecat offered to fix your objection free of charge and you arrogantly refused. Sorry Sinatra but Kazecat was very polite and civil and offered a very good compromise despite you letting them finish the work when you knew you were going to refuse payment. I personally would not have added an extra character but he gave you two oppurtunities to redo the Artwork to your needs despite the vague description you gave. with the other character edited out the picture would be exactly what you asked for so to refuse payment makes it little more than fraud.