selling art to minors?

[whoop-zi.livejournal.com]

hi all, i need some advice!
i have it stated in my TOS that i require my commissioners to be over 18(regardless of content) because of paypal's policy. however, i know it's possible to use paypal if the account is under a parent's name, but doing business with someone who doesn't own the account makes me pretty wary. i put this rule into effect after i recieved a chargeback on an adoptable from someone who's dad was apparently charging back ALL of her commissions, and i didn't want to find myself in that position again.

the only problem is that i really don't have a way to tell whether or not someone is underage unless they have it listed on their profile, and i have no way of telling whether or not their paypal account is -their- paypal account, so i'm not really sure how to enforce that. should i just allow minors to commission me(sfw, obviously) and hope for the best? or use my best judgement? i'm curious as to how my fellow artists deal with this and whether or not a lot of you accept commissions for minors, and how nsfw artists make sure their clients are of age, too.

thanks!

Comments

[slyminera.livejournal.com]

This isn't exactly a foolproof way of knowing but sometimes you can tell by the email/name on the Paypal account vs the email/name of the commissioner.
A friend of mine recently accepted payment for an auctioned character, but the winner ended up needing to have the money refunded because an emergency came up in her family.
When she told my friend what email to refund to, after checking the Paypal information she noticed the email she gave didn't match the one that sent the payment.
She questioned the winner and sorted it out, apparently she had used her mother's Paypal because she was only 16, so the refund was sent back to her mother's account.

[leahtaur.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't say this is a good way of telling if the user is underaged, just because I have had plenty of customers who explain to me that they are a couple or are even roommates/housemates who use each others' paypals or have a single one for the pair or group.

OP, I should also say that I have had a customer who is a grown adult who used her own paypal, but whose bank issued chargebacks after her account was compromised. And I have heard of others. So I wouldn't say that allowing minors to commission you will more likely lead to chargebacks than only allowing adults would.

My policy is to check their FA's profile age and if it's over 18 or blank, that's the extent you can reasonably do. People will lie and you can't stop them, but if you check the listed age, your butt's covered on your end.

[blot.livejournal.com]

Yea, I use my Husband's paypal, and have ever since we started dating.

[chronidu.livejournal.com]

Basically what leahtaur said, another issue is if they have changed their name but haven't done it legally yet.

Case and point, my shipping name and public name is not the same as the one I use with my paypal, but payal will not allow me to change that name until I have changed it legally.

[dinogrrl.livejournal.com]

You're right, this is the internet, and it isn't always possible to verify someone's identity or age. I would say just use your best judgement. If you have any question about someone's age, better to err on the side of caution and not allow them to purchase NSFW items.

I don't accept commissions from minors. They can buy my premade stuff all day but I'm just not comfortable taking a risk by accepting a commission from them. If anything goes wrong I'd likely be out everything.

[houndofloki.livejournal.com]

This is the internet, so knowing for sure just isn't always possible.

I would take every step you can to avoid doing business with minors though, even completely SFW art. If it turns out the minor was using their parents' card without permission and the parent starts doing mass chargebacks - there's just not much you can do about it. Unless it's something like a $10 adoptable where the transaction going sideways wouldn't be the end of the world, why take the risk?

[corghi.livejournal.com]

While not exactly foolproof, you can tell a lot about someone's age by how they type... and I've yet to be wrong.

I've had people inquire about a commission, email me multiple times until I reply, are incredibly pushy and impatient, "I want this!" "I changed my mind!" "I actually want this instead of this, how much does this cost?" ... and turn out to be 13 years old... not that I'd work with someone like that if they weren't a minor! Though I digress.

I've done business with a minor and their parent, and the parent was involved the entire time, and professional, and it was a great experience.

So I guess what I'm saying, is use your better judgement if you can't find their age. There's no surefire way, but trust your gut and everything will be okay.

[whoop-zi.livejournal.com]

good point- i've definitely noticed that too. i guess my gut is really my best tool in this situation :x

[whitepelt.livejournal.com]

I am not an Artist but i had in the past to deal with issues regarding minors buying things. What i highly recommend is that before the payment is done you request ID. As long as this is provided and the ID is not modified and the Age is okay then you are pretty much on the safe side :) Cause if the ID was tempered with the guy then has a serious problem. Tempering and modifying an ID is pretty much major criminal stuff (at least where i am from)

Whitepelt

[celestinaketzia.livejournal.com]

Requiring that kind if information for a quick commission is likely going to drive away a lot of clientele. Especially when we're talking online transactions. I would never scan my id for any random person on the Internet.

[whitepelt.livejournal.com]

Of course i can understand that. But i think it should depend on the Artwork you sell. I am pretty sure that selling certain Adult Artwork to a minor (even without knowing that its a minor) is violation of Law. If someone would request Adult Artwork from me, i would at least try to make sure its not a minor which requests it. It doesnt have to be an ID. Since you are from the US i asume and Credit Card is pretty comon there i would possibly ask for CC Details (unless Credit Cards are issued to minors too). With CCs you can tell them to white out the Number and experation date but it will still show their Name on it and that should be prove enough that the person is not a minor.

[gatekat.livejournal.com]

You would actually give credit card info to someone that doesn't need it?

The scam potential aside, that's even easier to take from mom/dad than access to their PayPal.

[whitepelt.livejournal.com]

Please read my post again Gatekat. I said that they can white out the Number and Experation Date. How are you scam someone with their Card details if you dont know the Number of or the Expiration Date? But as Cel said in her post it is not really an option since Cards are actually given out to minors also it seems.

[gatekat.livejournal.com]

I did misread. Sorry. I saw 'white' as 'write'.

[celestinaketzia.livejournal.com]

It depends on the state you reside in on the legalities of unknowingly exposing minors to pornography.
Also I've had access to a CC and debit with my name on it since I was 16, so that's not an entirely effective method. Perhaps if one is at a convention asking for ID is a great idea, however online requires the possibility of storing this information. You can be held liable if said information were to be leaked.

[whoop-zi.livejournal.com]

^agreed, that's a little invasive for me. :x

[celestinaketzia.livejournal.com]

Really what you have going on now is going to be the best you can do. You can look into your area's specific laws, but most places don't hold you liable if a minor has lied about their age and is trying to scam you.

[whoop-zi.livejournal.com]

that's good to know :x thanks!

[gatekat.livejournal.com]

Agreed this would be effective, but it's also a massive red flag that the seller is trying some kind of phishing/scam if I was a buyer. Unless it's something where I would expect to show ID in the real world, an internet seller isn't getting my ID either.

[tysharina.livejournal.com]

As you are worried about possible future chargebacks, would setting up payments via invoice be a safer way of doing things? That way if they are using a parent's PayPal account, the parent will get the email to pay the invoice and if they are not okay about it, the commission stops right there.

Otherwise, the only other way around it I can see would be to request ID, and to be perfectly honest, even though I'm 35 I would still never send a copy of my ID to someone online.

[teekchan.livejournal.com]

Invoices dont stop charge backs.

But, whenever I send or receive a payment it is emailed to me. And I get dinged on my tablet as well. The parent should get the email regardless of invoice or not.

[tysharina.livejournal.com]

True it doesn't prevent chargebacks, but I thought it was an idea that might lessen the chance of getting hit with one.

I know you get an email when you send or receive money via PayPal, but by that point the money has been sent and if the account holder isn't happy about it then they'll probably want the money back. At least if they dispute the invoice, no money has changed hands and the commission hasn't been started (or gone beyond a sketch).

It was just an idea.

[celestinaketzia.livejournal.com]

Unfortunately this will always be a risk of operating online. Having a line in your ToS is good, and ensuring you have proof of them agreeing they are over 18 and are using a funding source they are authorized to use could drastically improve your chances when it comes to Paypal disputes. Charge backs are a different beast entirely. I know that Paypal has been known to reimburse chargeback fees if they're fraudulent.

[familliaraver.livejournal.com]

One thing I do is I send my TOS to the e-mail associated with the paypal account. I won't send it to any other email address.

[familliaraver.livejournal.com]

Also check the address associated with the paypal and cross reference it with the address they give you if you require an address.

Honestly if you feel that there isn't a way to avoid minors, make it public that under 18 can pay with a money order (safer for you) and many will probably be more open with their age.

[whoop-zi.livejournal.com]

ooh, that's a very good idea!

[laughsatthunder.livejournal.com]

As a minor myself I can easily understand why most artists wouldn't want to work with them. I don't even want to work with them myself. Generally speaking they don't have the money, they ask a lot of questions and use text talk even I don't understand.

Aside from that, just check their profile for their age and if you're really suspicious, just ask. An answer like "it's a secret!! x3" will prove your suspicions right. I know many fursuit artists ask for parental permission and I've started to do the same, seeing that the kid shouldn't be commissioning for something that the parent wouldn't want in their house or on their computer (including NSFW art).
Don't be afraid to put your foot down and say no either. You'd be out a sale but in the long run it may be well worth it.

[spartanwerewolf.livejournal.com]

1) It's generally illegal to provide minors access to pornography.

2) If you are a minor, you should not be taking commissions either. You cannot legally enter into a contract, and anyone doing business with you is opening themselves up to a potential shitshow.

[laughsatthunder.livejournal.com]

1) I'm aware.

2) That's why taking a commission from me is a "risk". Does it mean I will run off with the money? No. If the person feels uncomfortable with it then they don't have to, no one is forcing them. You're taking a big freaking leap saying I'll conduct a shitshow based off of my AGE and not my business.
My parents aren't in the dark about my work, they aid me in it and I get help on here too. I wouldn't take commissions if I didn't feel I could work my hardest on them.

[spartanwerewolf.livejournal.com]

You're entering contracts that you can't legally uphold. That, imo, is already an issue. That's what I'm basing it off of.

[wuvvumsoc.livejournal.com]

Honestly if the person is doing all worksafe stuff I think it's okay for minors to try out some freelance work. Yeah, minors can't enter into contracts, but if they are upfront with their customers and both parties know the risk then that is okay.

I dunno, I can understand barring minors as customers, especially if you do NSFW. But if a minor wants to try and start up their own business as a freelancer and learn about customer service, work ethic, and all that stuff I find it kind of admirable. I guess it's hard to explain but I find it rather extreme to say that minors shouldn't try to conduct any business and learn about handling customers. I kind of think of it as a more grown up(or teenage) version of a lemonade stand or delivering newspapers.

[spartanwerewolf.livejournal.com]

If minors want to dip their toe into freelance stuff, fine. They can do trades. My objection is when money starts getting involved.

[wuvvumsoc.livejournal.com]

This is pretty much debate/opinion territory, but I think minors should get to earn money for their work if they want to. Like I said, if the other party knows they are a minor and are willing to take the risk, I don't see the problem, as long as they aren't asking for anything NSFW. I also think it really isn't our business if both the customer and seller are happy.

You also act like it's impossible for someone to seek recourse against a minor in a commission situation. A paypal dispute should still work, even if the owner of the account is a minor, and you have up to six months to file a dispute these days. Most of the people I see on A_B who end up unable to get their money back seem to be because they fell outside this dispute window and nothing to do with whether or not the person is of age.

[spartanwerewolf.livejournal.com]

You do you, Wuvvums. I'm personally not willing to take the risk. And if you think every minor doing art is disclosing their age, or only doing SFW stuff, you're dreaming.

The only legal restitution, outside of, yes, filing a paypal claim, is to sue the minor's parents or guardians. If I run away with someone's money, I can personally be taken to task for it; a minor cannot. And that's why I won't do business with minors. It is absolutely nothing personal.

[wuvvumsoc.livejournal.com]

I don't really buy commissions that much and only from adults. I don't have a personal stake in this. You can choose not to buy from minors, that is okay, but it's another thing to tell someone else to stop doing business, which is what you are basically doing(or at least chastising them for it).

Freelance commissions are very casual in the fandom so there are very rarely any lawsuits and most of the recourse comes down to paypal. If you can get your money back then I don't see why you would hypothetically need to sue anyone over this. The people who I see regularly get away with money are those who habitually scam and most often age doesn't even factor into it, just the fact that the customers forget to file a dispute.

[spartanwerewolf.livejournal.com]

This is gonna be my last reply to this, but feel free to reply, if you want.

1) Commissions? Are a business. If you're under 18, you can't legally operate a business, unless it's a joint venture with your parents.

2) If you are under 18, and taking commissions, you are not legally bound by that contract, but the commissioner is.

3) It has nothing to do with someone's work ethic, or how much they want to do business. Purely legalities and potential contractual shitshows.

4) You might consider freelancing casual. I myself do not. I treat every transaction like it's an actual business transaction, since, y'know, it is.

Anyway, like I said, you do you, I'll do me, and everyone is happy.

[hidden-kyuubi.livejournal.com]

This is advice from a lawyer when someone asked about commissioning art from someone underage for their website:
"You are right that contracts with minors are voidable. This does not mean that minors can cheat the system. Generally, a court will more loosely interpret a contract between a minor and an adult. For instance, a minor can enter into a contract for labor and the court will not reverse. However, the minor will be protected if the contract is very one-sided. As long as the deal you are making is standard in your industry, a court would likely uphold a fair contract.

Contracts are voided against minors when the terms are unfavorable to the minor or the court feels the adult is taking advantage of the minor."

[zielomizu.livejournal.com]

I know it's been a bit but I thought I'd put my two cents in.
If you absolutely don't want to work with minors, Paypal is not a payment method to use. I found this out after digging into legalities of selling drawn porn up here in the great white north (Canada) - I HAVE to check my client's age legally, and if I don't, a minor lying to me about their age to buy porn isn't a defense in court.

So, I had two options:
1) Ask for proof of age (photo ID) - Get a photo of the customer holding their ID and allowing them to black out all information other than their date of birth, legal name, and the photo on the card. It's a decent method but restricts a lot of customers out of lack of trust.

2) Get a different payment method. I found Square, which ONLY accepts credit cards, and even gives you a free card reader you can take to cons and use with their phone app (bonus!). It does not accept debit cards, which pretty much guarantees the card used to pay belongs to an adult (18+ yrs). Now, there is still the issue of the kid using their parent's card, but outside of chargebacks your ass is covered.
https://squareup.com

Sadly, you can't prevent chargebacks if you get commissioned by a wiley kid who isn't as wiley as they thought, and there is no REAL way to garuentee your customer's age outside of asking for photo ID through skype or something/meeting them IRL. Also, if you're taking clean commissions, you can always just, y'know... /ask/. They're probably more willing to be truthful because they're not already tiptoeing around the legal barrier.

[poizenkat.livejournal.com]

a bit late here but minors can indeed have paypal accounts under their own names. it's called a student account. i used to have one when i was younger.

[zzyzx.livejournal.com]

Well, the big problem with doing anything involving minors is that they can't legally enter a contract to being with, so they can't legally agree to your ToS, so you're pretty much without recourse if you're trying to collect. Not that many furry art cases go to court either way, but you know.