Negative Press and possible effects of...

[valentinecrow.livejournal.com]

First off this is my first post in AB, and I hope it is not too off-topic, I'm not reporting on anyone, instead I would like to open a discussion on the IMPACT of previous reports on clientèle, artists & people who have considered taking out commissions with someone.

The whole Pogoroo thing, and countless other artists mentioned here as being unreliable - does anyone else see these incidents/persons as giving a bad name to, hurting the reputation of and possibly taking away business from ALL artists offering commissions? (Speaking within the community of course)

I mean - is such "bad" artist behavior it rampant? No. Should we judge only by what is reported here? No. But does it factor in? I believe - Yes. And I worry that all this bad behavior might be turning away some possible clients. That is my belief though, and I'd like to hear yours AND possible solutions.

Would I sound like I'm trying to hard to defend myself (even though I've never stood up a client) if I were to post client reviews (basically, a client gives me a review of services rendered and I post it - negative or positive - sort of like those ebay points - oh that would be a great website, too bad I can't program worth a diddle...if someone wants to I have ideas)

I just don't like to hear how some people who really want to commission people end up feeling uneasy about it because of negative past experiences, or hearing about them from others.

In short - What can the "good" artists do to protect themselves from the backlash caused by others?

(P.S. I don't mean to sound paranoid or anything, its just a concern - sorry if this is inappropriate as a topic or already been address.)

Comments

[wolf-nymph.livejournal.com]

So far, I've never had anyone blatantly NOT commission me because they've heard bad stories about other artists who don't own up to what they are supposed to do. But I can see where the concern comes from. I don't think anything can really be done about influencing a single person or group of people' decisions to commission an artist (or not). I do think that when you advertise for commissions, giving examples of what you've done is good not only to show off your skills, but to show others have reliably commissioned you for good work. Staying in communication, being honest and fair with clients... all the "good artist" kind of stuff! ^_~

[growing-rose.livejournal.com]

I was quite happy with the commission I got from you. (I got the dragon to help you out with getting your Venom hoodie.) And even though you forgot about me, I was plenty happy with the outcome. If you had even just given me the pencil sketch I would've been happy, but you were awesome enough to throw in free inking on top because of it. ;D

♥

[wolf-nymph.livejournal.com]

And I still wear my Venom hoodie all the time! =D I'm glad you appreciate it ^^

[growing-rose.livejournal.com]

I feel bad that it's been in my drawer of art for the last year. ^^; I had it on the wall, but then moved and I'm SO SLACK at putting things back up. I need to go through and organize that set of drawers soon, so it should be going up again.

[alcyione.livejournal.com]

I will throw this in too, I was -so- incredibly happy with the badge I commissioned you for two years ago. <3

[wolf-nymph.livejournal.com]

*hugs* Thank you muchly =D

[tealizard.livejournal.com]

I would recommend having a livejournal post set up where clients can post their positive OR negative experience.

As far as reputation and such goes... everyone is going to have a bad experience as a commissioner or an artist. It's the name of the game. The thing I pay more attention to is the comments... i.e.: how many people come in and say "oh that's odd. I worked with them and they were great". Another big factor is if the artist/commissioner in question shows up.

There's also something to be said for coming in, explaining their side of the story, or even apologizing for the op's bad experience. Of course, sometimes people come in and start going off on how nobody else thinks that way and you shouldn't listen to this person because they're just crazy, etc etc. Those are the ones I'd be more apt to avoid.

I've never been posted about here (of course, it's been quite awhile since I've done commissions, really), so I can't really say how it's affected my business, but I can say that these posts always affect my view of the artist/commissioner (or the op), either negatively or positively, depending on the response.

[lilenth.livejournal.com]

Generally no matter what business you're in there are some people who are going to be unreliable, just as builders have cowboys and financial advisors have con men there are people who are dishonest in any profession.

Realistically, anyone silly enough to think that dishonest people make the whole group bad is probably not someone I want commissioning me anyway. There's bad commissioners but nobody with any sense assumes all commissioners are bad. The few who do usually lose business over it.

In short what good artists can do to protect themselves from backlash is to build up a solid reputation for being good.

[starcharmer.livejournal.com]

Realistically, anyone silly enough to think that dishonest people make the whole group bad is probably not someone I want commissioning me anyway.

That is a very good point. I totally agree with that.

[thrivis.livejournal.com]

Was composing a similar response.

People come here /looking/ for fresh bad news, right?

If they were going to be scared off by bad news at a site that is FOR reporting bad news, they probably weren't ready to commission folks anyway. :/ There are risks with everything, and limiting research to just the negative is not balanced research.

Seems like worrying about "bad rep" from other artists is kind of like worrying about someone deciding not to drive a your car because they are afraid of all the drunk drivers on the road after they read about drunk driver accidents on the Horrific Drunk Driver Accident website. Drunk accidents happen, it's part of the risk transporting yourself from one place to another if you ride in a car, but it's not exactly astronomically likely.

If folks really want some art, they'll probably pay for it, and personally responsible clients would probably research the artists they are interested in rather than assume that the posts on a Bad News com are the bulk of artists.

[dinogrrl.livejournal.com]

I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to post client reviews--like you mentioned, eBay does that. It can tell you a lot about a person, but at the same time, some people get really wrapped up in ONLY such reviews and create a self-image around that, or will only see the artist as the sum of their reviews.

Really, the only way to guard yourself from the backlash is to stay professional, courteous, and respectful of your clients and colleagues. It takes much longer to build a reputation as a good artist than a bad one, but it's so much more worth it in the end.

[gas-mask-dragon.livejournal.com]

I personally wouldn't want to commission someone who has stood up two or more clients, because it wouldn't be fair to the people who didn't get their commissions done in the first place. It's wrong of an artist to skip out on someone after payment and no amount of justifying will tell me otherwise.

[bladespark.livejournal.com]

Far as I'm concerned it's a non-issue. A client's timidity and reluctance to trust has as much to do with their own nature as it has to do with any stories they've heard. I'd much prefer to have negative reports of people who are deserving of such than have nothing but happy rainbows and puppies for all artists.

And as has been said, once you have a good reputation, it's much harder for any negativity to harm your business. (Heck, look at Rose Quoll. She turned into an outright scammer at the end, and yet it took years for most people to finally believe it, because for so long she /had/ been a very reliable and trustworthy person. So if you have a good reputation and you don't scam people, I don't see there being much that can hurt you.)

[starcharmer.livejournal.com]

Actually, I think the artist feedback would be a good thing. I've been thinking about making a post on my commissions journal [runswithpencils] for that purpose, but haven't gotten around to it, yet.

And I'm not really sure about the question you posed. This is a very interesting topic to me, though, so I'll be sure to check back and read all the comments!

[jooki.livejournal.com]

I've never had my sales hurt because of others getting bad press. I get bugged to open more commissions. I don't know why though O.@. I feel a beware community is needed. Like a consumers report for artists. The comments are a better review than the opening posts. It also helps warn good artists about taking the bad commissioners as well. Lord knows I wish I got a warning against a few I've had.... A bad commissioner can hurt a good artists sales.

[leahtaur.livejournal.com]

"I feel a beware community is needed. Like a consumers report for artists."

Hmmm... something similar to the very community you're posting in? ;)

[jooki.livejournal.com]

Yeah O.o This community is very needed.

[karakas.livejournal.com]

Where did that community artists_recommend or whatever it was get to? That was kind of useful/relevant.

[casteddreams.livejournal.com]

artistrecommend

[karakas.livejournal.com]

Thanks, it wouldn't come up in my searches and I couldn't remember the name for the life of me.

[hyarmi-records.livejournal.com]

It's still around (http://community.livejournal.com/artistrecommend/), just not as active as this community.

[thaily.livejournal.com]

This community also encourages you to post recommendations here, where it's likely that more people will see it.

[kerstin-orion.livejournal.com]

Thank you. :) I was just about to say that.

[stolenmilkcrate.livejournal.com]

If anyone who commissions me seems leery or mentions being burned by others, I simply contact a few other people I have done commissions for and ask them if it's okay if a new person contacts them to ask questions about their dealings with me. Usually they are incredibly amenable to that. It does help soothe nervous folks. I've only had a few people who have been burned before, though - most of my customers don't seem to be terribly aware of the jerkbags out there.

[valentinecrow.livejournal.com]

sounds like an excellent idea, I have asked for feedback from clients before (just to see what I could improve upon) but what you do is great :)

[beetlecat.livejournal.com]

does anyone else see these incidents/persons as giving a bad name to, hurting the reputation of and possibly taking away business from ALL artists offering commissions?

No. My reputation is my own. Just because I offer the same medium of art as people who accept money and then don't deliver does not mean that people think I'm a rotten scammer as well. Of anything, it makes me look even better and more professional.

if I were to post client reviews (basically, a client gives me a review of services rendered and I post it

Those are called customer testimonials and it is extremely common for business to post them. I do all the time - I plan to put a particular nice on on my new business cards. It adds the 'pack' mentality where people are more likely to buy something if other people have bought it previously.

Would I sound like I'm trying to hard to defend myself (even though I've never stood up a client) if I were to post client reviews (basically, a client gives me a review of services rendered and I post it - negative or positive

Just a quick note. It's not somehow dirty or dishonest to only spread around good reviews and good work and to try keep the bad work and bad review a little closer to chest. Art is a business and no professional business is going to shout out that 'so and so had a problem with my work but I'll try to do better next time.' They just shut up about it and let the matter die.

I guess my point is that if you get a bad review, do everything you can to make the customer happy and then leave it be. Even the most bestest artist in the world will not have 100% positive comments from customers. But there's no reason to try to 'justify' it by explaining it publicly.

[neolucky.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure about what you're asking here - Bad circumstances are reported here to warn others. If something good happened (Which there are some amazingly good people out there!) then...generally there's nothing to warn about and thus everyones happy on all sides.

I don't think having bad reputations brought up here are really impacting people as a whole to commission others. Heck even some of the god-awful people talked about here STILL get commissions! So all one can do as a freelance artist, is continue to be prompt, professional and friendly =) And if someone DOES write a bad review, and they're in the wrong? Simply defend yourself in an honest way. Admit when you're wrong, take the hit, and continue on.

Honesty goes a looooonnngggg way in this field.

[valentinecrow.livejournal.com]

Sorry I can be unclear sometimes - I didn't mean just here, as I said to someone else I like and think this community is needed. I meant in the whole fandom with respects to the art trade. But I see alot of people don't think it hurts, and that's fine, I was just curious how the general populous feels about it.

EXCELLENT Icon btw, my bf played that video to a fellow player on an online game and the kid kept singing into the mic for a few hours afterward. *sigh* such bad influences ;)

[rharwen.livejournal.com]

I don't feel it hurts us as a whole. I know being related to or involved with someone getting reported can occasionally come back to bite you in the ass. Fortunately I've never had a problem.

And Generally, if I'm commisioning someone for the first time, and something red-flags in my mind, I do a google site search for their known alias' in relation to this group. If they come up, I read the review + comments and decide for myself whether to risk it or not.

[matcha-tan.livejournal.com]

To me, it really only hurts me about 10%. I've had someone report me here in the past, but it was her fault because she didn't bother asking me if I had any progress to show her in the first place, and my commission guidelines were questioned, when in reality nothing was wrong with them. And I kept her up to date already.

I've also had a few people commission me, but tell me they only want to pay half because they've been scammed before, while I understand it, makes me feel a little bad because I've never done that to someone else.

I feel if you're professional, friendly, and honest, you can't really worry someone and most of the time the comment from my clients is "worth the wait".

[averageeveryday.livejournal.com]

Money is tight these days. I don't think Artist's Beware is the culprit.

[valentinecrow.livejournal.com]

Never said it was. I think its a great community, something we need to have. I'm not just talking about what is said here, but on FA, DA, FAP, etc. Anyplace allowing comments or forums, etc. I have heard the PogoRoo drama elsewhere too, same with the complaints listed.

[thaily.livejournal.com]

Easy, always be open, honest and civil with your customers.

If there's one person who's going to start a ruckus about how sucky an artist you are to do business with but there's a dozen people who say they were satisfied with your service then anyone who believes that one person would probably have been a poor customer anyway in the sense that they are looking for faults and excuses to get wound up over.

Artist recommendations are allowed here too, all we can do is provide the information. What other people do with said information is up to them.

[actonrf.livejournal.com]

In a way I say yes, I had bad luck with a few artist to where I will not commission sombody under 21 less there have prior experience. There will be exceptions but I feel some young artist have not leaned responsibility yet. I speak as a person who runs an Ebay Side business, Last year I turn 2000 profit from 5000 sales. If I did what some artiest did to me I would been kicked off Ebay a long time ago.

As I think about I wonder some fury artist realize than running a art commission business is more than just drawing pictures. Low points I see is the failure in meeting customer satisfaction by putting out quality product in a reasonable amount of time and feedback to the customer.

[houndofloki.livejournal.com]

I do think reading lots of horror stories about deadbeat artists makes some buyers reluctant to pay the full amount upfront, but I can honestly understand the logic behind that. If I were paying more then maybe $50 or so for a commission, I would want to work out some sort of half-upfront half-on-delivery deal too.

[valentinecrow.livejournal.com]

*nods* true, I've done it similar but reversed, I show them sketches, then they pay, then I complete. This way they know/see I'm working on it. Plus I show them progress images at every stage (small files) - that helps if they forgot a detail or something. I think they like it but I'm not sure...

[houndofloki.livejournal.com]

i think that works, too. As long as you're giving some sort of assurance that you're actually working on the project before they sent over the full amount. If it's something piddly like $20 then it's probably not worth bothering, but if it's a significant amount of money...I can understand the reluctance to pay in full upfront.

[thrivis.livejournal.com]

Actually...

Sometimes I'll see artists post here with a bad experience and a number of folks will pop up saying something along the lines of, "Wow, your client was terrible. I'll be a better one!"

And the clients that do say things, "I'll never commission anyone ever again because of you!!!" seem to always be in the wrong to me. It seems like they're weeding themselves out if anything.

Clients that have been wronged and have been professional generally seem to have a mentality of "I'll take my business to a responsible artist instead" and move on.

Though I wouldn't know if folks act on these words. It'd be lovely to know that everyone that said they'd commission a scorned artist actually did so. (I know I've added some artists from here to my lists on the gallery sites though. XD)

There have been comments now and then where someone says a bad experience turned them off to buying art from artists, but it seems to usually be their first commission experience, and one of high value that such happens on. Or the artist turns off to doing more commissions because of the first nasty client. I think that's kind of a baptism by fire, though. Like, congratulations, you've learned to take half-payment up front for art, or set a deadline for your expectations!

[fenris-lorsrai.livejournal.com]

If you're concerned about having a viewable record that you are a good artist, you might want an account on Etsy (http://www.etsy.com). The alchemy process on there is intended just for commissioned works and walks you through with uploading updates, laying out due dates, and keeping a record of the whole thing. And leaving feedback at the end. Since you're doing it through the site, if things go wrong, you have a nice record and you can cancel the sale and leave feedback on the buyer. Or if all went well, you have a nice record with the picture of the item and a review from customer saying how nice you are.

The Alchemy portion is small sidelines on site, its really intended as a venue for selling already finished arts and crafts. Alchemy is just a formalised version of dealing with customer requests of "I want a commission" or "can I get that as a X size print?"

[dredwalker.livejournal.com]

You would be surprised what bad press can get people. I myself was reported here as a bad commissioner (and that’s how I discovered this place) over an ugly incident that was really over bad communication. Although the artist had gone out her way to flame me, it strangely did me more good than harm. In the end I can see where I faulted because I did the deal without a contract. But I am always concerned about my reputation. If you Google my name you will see bad reports by one or two people strictly from DA about me. Although if researched you will see one such complainer was just a bogus account that got banned and that I did not work with a contract with that other complainer. A nasty lesson learned. Just earlier today I revised an entry in my journal just to make myself extra extra clear on how I operate because I am about to commission again, because I don’t ever want to come across an artist like that again. And I have hired good artists since.

But see what happens even in a bad deal even when people see your side of the story, the fact that your name is in the negative light is enough to make people turn away as a commissioner or an artist. Especially in the internet. There are people do not have time or the money to take that risk. And that is money and opportunity lost. No one has blatantly said to me I heard you are a bad commissioner But I know they are out there. For the lack of a better expression – excuse my language – but its like getting silently “C—K blocked”

Dinogrrl: Really, the only way to guard yourself from the backlash is to stay professional, courteous, and respectful of your clients and colleagues. It takes much longer to build a reputation as a good artist than a bad one, but it's so much more worth it in the end. I am not an artist but you are so right. An advice I will follow.

Here’s another advice though. Not everybody is going to like you. Despite your best business intent you are going to come across dissatisfaction. So if you know what you did was right then stand by your principles and don’t let bad press get you down.

Okay, so I might have reiterated some of the things that were said already. Believe or not I am still a novice at this commissioning thing, so I know there will be more obstacles to face when dealing with an artist in the future. Oh, this is another thing to consider. Bad deals may not be intentional so you can’t be quick to say they were maliciously trying to play the artist/commissioner. Maybe they just didn’t know better.

But as I have mention in another entry I am grateful for this site. The things I have mentioned above are based on the experience I have read here as well as my own experience. Although influential, Artist Beware is not some “Blacklist” report organization that going to hurt the business of the accused. Just be aware. That’s the purpose.

[baja-hyena.livejournal.com]

This is a concern. I do not commission any major pieces anymore given that about 70% of the time I have gotten ripped off. One could say I wasn't pushy enough. I don't believe in pestering someone when they have taken on work. I send email about once every month or maybe two. If the person fails to respond over time, I just figure I'm screwed. I can't make someone do work they don't want to do even if I have paid them to do it.

My response was to stop commissioning art about 5 yrs ago. I have gotten some badges done but that is about as big a commission that I will take a risk with. I did have one other commission done when the artist said they would do the piece and then I could pay them once they sent me a scan...then they would send the finished piece. They were quick, good, and I paid promptly. In the future, I'd never have a commission done that required my payment up front. It leaves me in a position where I have no leverage and I end up spending my time and mental well being hounding an artist to deliver what was agreed upon.

I do still buy art in the con art auctions but I feel disappointed that I don't feel comfortable commissioning my own characters and ideas anymore. In the end, I miss out and artists miss out. It's kind of a loose-loose.