[identity profile] gabrielle wertzbaugher posting in [community profile] artists_beware
I commissioned two head shots stylized in the mannerism of a well known cd cover art.

No problem with communication nor payment, gave them the link to my Reference journal all went smoothly.

Headshots took maybe 2 weeks or so, though I was in no rush and no specific deadline was specified, so it didn't bother me.

The first head shot was delivered and was fine.

The second head shot took an additional few days, but when delivered the colors of my character were way off. I contacted the artist to ask which reference he used. upon response he said he used an image listed clearly under my "Favorite Commissions" not under "References". ( https://www.furaffinity.net/journal/5393419/ ) I contact them back and saying that that was not a good color ref and the better reference would be her actual reference sheet. I asked if they could recolor the image. To that I received no reply so I waited a day and a half before asking simply if they received my last message (note they were responsive before on average about once every 24 hours when contacted).

I then proceeded to see them make a post on their social media page complaining about "if you send an artist a reference... make sure its accurate"

At this point I am no longer interested in the icons. Emotionally I feel unconnected with them and do not wish to use nor see them as they are a reminder of this unpleasantness. I feel like a big jerk for wanting my money back, but honestly the unprofessional way in which the matter was handled and resulting emotional attachment problems I feel are more than adequate to request such.

NOTE: As a side note I just received a message from them stating, "Please send me a link to a color reference that is accurate and I will have it fixed."

... really REALLY dunno what to do here. Do I ask for my money back citing the unprofessionalism? do i regive the reference and then after make an A_B detailing the issue? Do I point out their error in the first place? (last option doesnt seem like any good would come of it since they blatantly used a non-ref image)

Date: 2015-10-08 10:23 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] celestinaketzia.livejournal.com
In this case I'd say an A_B or a refund is a bit premature. While the artist clearly did make a mistake, they are trying to rectify it. I think you're taking a vent rather personally, which is definitely understandable. They shouldn't have posted any venting about transactions in a public space, but we're human and have transactions that can be a little frustrating from time to time.

Let them attempt to fix it. Once it's fixed then the artist will have completed the art to specification. In this instance, sorry, your lack of emotional connection to the piece (aka buyer's remorse) doesn't warrant a refund.

Date: 2015-10-08 10:48 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] anuvia.livejournal.com
I have a few questions!

When you linked the artist reference, did you give them individual links or did you refer them to that large journal? Also, has the total amount of time you have been waiting for an edit only a day or so? If so, that's a very short time to expect a drastic edit before wanting a refund.

As far as I can tell, I wouldn't consider a vague tweet about accurate references to be especially in poor taste, or enough to warrant calling them "unprofessional" or demanding a refund!

Date: 2015-10-08 04:03 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gatekat.livejournal.com
Unless they named you specifically in that tweet, which isn't in your copy of their tweet, it's no more unprofessional than what you're doing. No name means you are assuming they mean you and not a dozen other incidents that you don't know about.

Date: 2015-10-09 02:16 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] vauvakolibri.livejournal.com
"What part of my actions represents unprofessionalism?"
Basically they're meaning that the artist complained about someone publicly without naming names, and you are complaining publicly about someone without naming names, and you're condeming them over doing the same as you.
Point being that it's *possible* the artist is complaining about someone else and not you, and just venting alone isn't unprofessional in itself.

EDIT:added clarification
Edited Date: 2015-10-09 02:19 pm (UTC)

Date: 2015-10-09 01:16 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] anuvia.livejournal.com

So I can see why they may have used the incorrect colors in this case then! Typically when you link an artist a very large wall of text they like to pick out the important things to make the commission more accurate. Personally, If I had seen the "Favorite Commissions" listed there, I would have assumed that those are the commissions that best appeal to you and are most accurate to the character since you felt the need to have that listing there! I think in the future, it may be better to send the direct links for what's most accurate over sending an artist a large journal where there's tons of information and links that could lead to a miscommunication!

As for the professionalism in the tweet; I'm going to echo others here (just more politely)! If a tweet is directed at you by name and they are trying to stir up trouble, then that by all means is a problem! If they vaguely tweet out of frustration without citing anything beyond that, I wouldn't say it's unprofessional against you! I would say it's not in good taste to time it in a way that both of you know the context, but it's not exceptionally aggressive towards you at all.

In terms of a refund, I would honestly say that the best you could expect from this would be a partial refund if they refuse to recolor the image! If they do recolor the image, you're not entitled to any refund. While you may feel sour about the transaction, it doesn't mean the service on the artist's end was not rendered and they don't deserve compensation for their work!
Edited Date: 2015-10-09 01:20 am (UTC)

Date: 2015-10-08 11:43 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] killercacti.livejournal.com
If you linked him the above journal for reference, he might have inferred that any of the favorite commissions listed were possible color variations. If you are using this journal to show off references for commissions, maybe it's a good idea to make a note on the "favorite commissions" section saying not to use them as references, but that they show off the personality of your character, or something...just to prevent this from happening in the future.

I don't think you're entitled to a refund, unfortunately, since the work was done and he seems willing to recolor the icon for you. It sucks that he subtweeted (or appeared to subtweet) you...unfortunately this artist has been posted in AB pretty often (I know exactly who you are talking about, haha).

Date: 2015-10-08 11:49 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ctk-hullo.livejournal.com
I don't think a refund is called for, either, just let the artist fix the colours. In the future it will probably be better to link directly to references instead of a text-heavy journal. Something like, "Here's my character's reference: [ref link] and there's more information here if needed: [journal link]."

Date: 2015-10-08 01:58 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] likeshine.livejournal.com

Going forward, I would think about giving the artist a link or two that are correct, as opposed to linking them to a journal that had several images listed (if that is what happened, that is). Having a list of favorite commissions that are still "wrong" included along with your references is a little confusing. I say this as an artist who has done a lot a lot a lot of commissions.

And, I don't think you have the grounds to demand a refund. The work was completed, so even if you went the refund route you would only be entitled to a partial refund. The artist did the work. Please give them a chance to make your fixes.

Date: 2015-10-08 02:49 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gatekat.livejournal.com
I have to say I agree with the artist's rant here. You gave a link, they used a ref given in that link, and you're now upset about which image of those you offered them that they chose.

Those 'favorite commissions' have no business in a set of links for references. Only references valid for use belong in a list of references.

Date: 2015-10-08 03:52 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gatekat.livejournal.com
You linked to the journal titled 'Munashii Reference Page' as the location of references, then complain that they used a link given in that journal.

That's unreasonable.

Can you really not grasp that when something is titled reference, given as where to get a reference, you should expect anything in it as a reference?

On top of listing inappropriate images on a reference page, you even listed them *first* so anyone going there would run into what you didn't want used before they came across what you did want.

That goes under 'really poor planning' on your part.

At the end of the day they did use an image from the journal you provided as a ref.

So why in the world did you include images you don't like used as ref in a journal for ref?

That *is* the issue, because if you hadn't screwed up in the first place it wouldn't have happened.

Date: 2015-10-09 05:47 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kattotang.livejournal.com
Except they didn't post any personal interaction publicly. They never stated your name, so you're only assuming they were talking about you rather than someone else or a bunch of different people.

Date: 2015-10-10 01:42 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tifaria.livejournal.com
But... you're posting the situation publicly too, in the exact same vague way they are, without naming names. They could have been talking about someone else?

I'm not saying they're right for doing so, but like... at this point, it's worth it to give them the chance to fix it. And in the future, I wouldn't even put your favorite commissions in the same journal as your references, just to be safe and avoid this. Although if they're your favorites, I can see why the artist would think that must mean you liked the colors used in them.

Date: 2015-10-08 03:11 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] aerospiritual.livejournal.com
personally, as an artist, I would've immediately worked with the ref that is labelled as "very accurate" as opposed to the linked commissions- but at the end of the day, that's just me.

was it unprofessional of the artist to complain in public? absolutely- that's stuff for private conversation with friends, where the client and future clients aren't able to see it. venting is understandable, but doing so in public isn't excusable.

I don't think you're entitled to a full refund, maybe a partial- but if the artist is willing to work with you, why not let them fix the piece so that you can at least have some kind of positive outcome from this? it's not as though the artist has gone around and outed you in public and neither are they dragging your name through the mud as a bad client. it just sounds like a moment of frustration demonstrated in an unprofessional manner. personally, I'd take the fix and then just not work with that artist anymore.

I'm also kinda hesitant to say that this is partially on your end because at least, imho, it's clearly labelled what are references and what are commissions that depict the character in a manner that you enjoy- could it be clearer? I- I guess? in only as much as adding what is to be used as a character/color ref and what defines their personality. but as an artist, I wouldn't have any issue working from what you've given.

Date: 2015-10-08 04:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] chaossal.livejournal.com
I don't like their attitude about you ''sending them the wrong ref'' when in fact you did not. It's not that hard to read what your References are. Its there own fault that they chose art clearly listed as Favorite Commissions and not your references.

But since they have offered to fix it you are not entitled to a refund. I would just not commission that artist anymore. We have all had to do business with a artist we know now not to commission any more at some point.
Edited Date: 2015-10-08 04:23 pm (UTC)

Date: 2015-10-08 04:49 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] roxyfur.livejournal.com
Just like others above have said, I don't think you're entitled to a refund nor should you post an AB on the artist. Yeah, if the tweet was indeed about you, it was in poor taste. However they are going out of their way to recolor the image in question.

In the future I would consider linking one or two images as reference, and not a journal cluttered with a bunch of links. It can be very overwhelming and in some cases, frustrating. The more links you provide, the more mistakes you can expect from the artist, just because it can be difficult to work from several references rather than just one reference sheet. If you have a reference sheet that is perfectly clear, there is no need to link any other images. Coming from the perspective of someone who does 20+ pieces a week, it's much easier to copy and paste one image onto my canvas per character, and results in a more accurate piece in most cases.

Date: 2015-10-08 08:03 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] magedragonfire.livejournal.com
In the future I would consider linking one or two images as reference, and not a journal cluttered with a bunch of links. It can be very overwhelming and in some cases, frustrating. The more links you provide, the more mistakes you can expect from the artist, just because it can be difficult to work from several references rather than just one reference sheet. If you have a reference sheet that is perfectly clear, there is no need to link any other images.

Completely agree. If you don't have a full-body reference of your character that contains all of these details, perhaps it is time to invest in one? The fewer images an artist has to work from, the more likely you are to get something accurate to what you want.

Also, as far as correct colours go - even if you're not an artist (and trust me, I am not one!), it's pretty easy to put together a palette file for your character with swatches of the proper colours, like some artists do on reference sheets. Of course, depending on the lighting of the piece, an artist may not stay exactly on-ref for that, but that's to be expected*. It's definitely helpful to give a swatch along with your on-model anatomy/clothing references, especially if your references' colours are off.

(*#000000 stripes aside...)

Date: 2015-10-09 05:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] magedragonfire.livejournal.com
Oh, good. Perhaps it may be prudent to use just that image instead of linking to the whole journal to avoid confusion in the future?

I know you are more concerned with the artist griping on his Twitter - but, honestly, as long as no names were given, I would see it as just an expression of frustration that things went sideways. There's no real unprofessionalism going on, just a mix-up that could have been avoided (and hopefully will be avoided in the future).

Date: 2015-10-09 07:15 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] roxyfur.livejournal.com
Then only link to that image, and that image alone. An artist only needs one image to work from as long as that image is accurate and thorough. More images leads to confusion, frustration, and is overwhelming.

edit: missed a letter.
Edited Date: 2015-10-09 07:15 pm (UTC)

Date: 2015-11-01 07:38 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wuvvumsoc.livejournal.com
I just want to mention how important it can be to have a pallet of solid colors. For example I have dual monitors and for some reason the contrast is different between them, so it can mess me up to look at a picture on the right monitor and draw on the left monitor without a solid color reference (since the eyedropper tool works pretty well).

I've also had a commissioner who asked me to change a color before even though I had taken it directly from the reference with an eyedropper tool. They had shading so I never had a solid color as a base but it would have been nice for them to make a color swatch instead of asking me to change the color like .02 shades lighter.

Date: 2015-10-08 05:14 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tylociraptor.livejournal.com
The thing that stands out to me is... well, if it's so inaccurate, why is it listed under "favorite" commissions? I'd be likely to assume that any references/images listed could be used for reference. There's no note saying, for instance 'This shows off their expressiveness well, but the colors are off'.

As said above, it is overwhelming and frustrating to have a number of references, much less ones that are conflicting and contradictory to each of them. I don't think it was unprofessional at all of the artist to post a little vent statement. They did not name you, they did not call you out, and for all you know, it could be about someone else, or multiple persons! To me, I'd have seen it as a statement that I can totally agree with and relate to, and not something where I would have ran and said "oh, are you talking about ______?" Or "who are you talking about?" It's something any artist might say, regardless of current clients or issues.

I don't feel an AB is appropriate in this situation. Additionally, the artist did the work based off of the references YOU as a client supplied. They are even willing to make corrections despite the fact that frankly, I don't think they are obligated... again, you supplied them with a number of links for reference and made no mention that any of them were inaccurate. You are in no way entitled to a refund.

Date: 2015-10-08 05:39 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ankewehner.livejournal.com
Yeah, that first line is my thinking, too.

The entire journal is titled "Reference Page", there is nothing on the "favourite commissions" lists indicating that you consider them inaccurate; that those images are labelled "favourite" sounds to me like you're happy with them, in other words, they are examples of what you hope to get from future commissions.

I mostly do trades rather than commissions, but during that I've worked with people who provided commissions as their preferred references.

So it doesn't seem all that unreasonable for an artist to use a commission from that page as basis for their work.

Date: 2015-10-09 03:24 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] spytdragonfyre.livejournal.com
The thing is, nowhere on that page do you say that. The entire thing is called a reference page, to be used as a reference. If the commissions display "something captured in her" then you apparently want them to be used as some kind of reference, be it build or personality. Your journal doesn't say how to interpret them, just that you really like them. Do you see how that can be confusing?

Date: 2015-10-08 08:23 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] doladdar.livejournal.com
the social media comment/venting was a bit unprofessional i agree

but you have to keep in mind that artists deal with commission inquiries constantly. it's hard to keep your thoughts totally organized when you're reviewing 10 15 20 or even more inquiries loaded with character information in one sitting. it's best not to make your reference list a mine field of incorrect images. this would have been something that I myself would have easily accidentally overlooked and mistook one of the favorite commissions as a reference.

Date: 2015-10-08 08:47 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] truant verreaux (from livejournal.com)
I don't think asking for a refund if they've already finished the work is a good thing to do, since they have already completed the work you'd basically be forcing them to have done all that for free.

I'd just resend the ref though because it's possible they just missed it. I think an AB or a refund seems a little bit of an extreme reaction even if your feelings were a little hurt. they shouldn't have said that but at the same time the proposed punishment does not fit the crime.

Date: 2015-10-08 08:51 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tinypup.livejournal.com
Mostly agreeing with what's already posted and saying next time, link to specific references, not a journal with what seems to be a bunch of them. I'd personally suggest the CoconutMilkyway one because it's an actual flat-colour ref sheet that shows all the markings from different views and would be the most helpful to an artist.
As it stands, even the refs that you have in the "reference" section have slightly different colours on each of them, and some are even soft-shaded. Things like that can be hard to work with. Just FYI.

Date: 2015-10-08 08:54 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kontonakuma.livejournal.com
Commenting as an artist, it is extremely confusing to be linked multiple references, especially if you have commission work of other artists and no information on why said piece is used as an image of reference. I don't think it's fair to the artist to put all the blame on them for getting the colors incorrect.

Now, commenting as a commissioner, I most certainly wouldn't think I was entitled to a refund. I'd just make a note not to commission said artist again and take this as a lesson to be more clear or to get a clearer ref sheet before commissioning another artist.

As for the tweet, unless they are clearly retweeting you or mentioning your name, I'll echo others in that you may be taking it too personal. Not having a clear ref is a frequent problem for many artists and it is frustrating after a while.

Date: 2015-10-08 10:39 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pinkpuppybelly.livejournal.com
Sorry, but you're not entitled to a refund.

1) The artist did the work, and it looks like they plan to fix the color issues.

2) If your entire journal is labeled 'reference', don't assume any artist is going to think 'hmm, now which of these are ACTUAL references'. It's up to you to supply ONLY ACCURATE images for reference.

3) They vented on their own social media (twitter, I assume?), and it doesn't sound like they called you out by name. It is their prerogative to be able to vent in a space that should be 'safe' for them to do so.

I know that sucks to hear, and you probably will always be soured on those icons. But unfortunately, them's the breaks.

Date: 2015-10-09 02:45 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] crystamartin.livejournal.com
I agree with what many have said here - your journal is cluttered and I had to reread it a couple of times to see that you actually had different sections in it. And you're taking a vague tweet personally. If they'd named names, sure. But they didn't, just made a general comment about a frustrating situation. Maybe it's referring to you, maybe they took three commissions and every single one of them sent them unclear references. You really need to step back a bit and look at this more objectively. :/

Date: 2015-10-09 03:17 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] spytdragonfyre.livejournal.com
Gonna have to agree with the others, the tweet wasn't that unprofessional imo. They vaguely posted annoyance about an issue they were having. No names were named, similiar to what you are doing here. It could be specifically about you /or/ they've had multiple experiences like this and are frustrated.

Date: 2015-10-09 08:20 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mekania.livejournal.com
Everyone else has talked about the situation with the artist and I don't know what character they got wrong but as a commissioner I have to say your reference section for Muna is very confusing. Every picture linked there has a different hair color ranging from chocolate brown to solid black and none have the red-brown highlights of your reference sheet image.

I know you're saying that's not the problem but for future reference I would make changes to the way you send character refs. And in your text character break down I would add things like hair color and skin tone and maybe even body type if you have a preference, weight doesn't really cover that.

Date: 2015-10-10 02:57 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sableantelope.livejournal.com
". Emotionally I feel unconnected with them and do not wish to use nor see them as they are a reminder of this unpleasantness. I feel like a big jerk for wanting my money back, but honestly the unprofessional way in which the matter was handled and resulting emotional attachment problems I feel are more than adequate to request such."

In what universe could this be considered a grounds to break a contract? I don't know whether to laugh or cry...

OP, just one question, what link did you send them for ref? If it was several images how can they know what to use and what not from a collection of images.
You expect them to wade through your folders/files to find what you consider the "right" reference if you were vague. They don't have to do that.

My legal-ness tends to be on the consumer advocate side of contract law, but in this case it's so very swung the other way. I'd argue the artist owes you no refund, in fact unless you sent them the link to one specific image and they used another I'll say with no argument you aren't owed a refund.
They did a compete coloured piece in good faith based on images available to them of the character. If you have one particular way you want the character drawn you have too be clear on that. Artists aren't mind readers.

The artist is being a mensch making the colour changes for you, and they didn't call you out specifically in any way when they were discussing things on their social media page. You connecting that comment to you is all on you.

In the future don't work with the artist again, I'm sure they wont be working with you.
Edited Date: 2015-10-10 03:01 pm (UTC)

Date: 2015-10-11 12:28 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sacch.livejournal.com
I would be really confused if a client linked me that journal with that amount of references/links, and then said this... The only differences in each reference are lighting and coloring styles, IMO. That artist may have grabbed from your "favorite commissions" list because that's what they saw and thought emulating those "favorite commissions" would be a good choice. That's an honest mistake a lot of artists would make.

An artist venting in their personal space whether or not they named you isn't the best choice of action, but it's not enough to warrant a refund... And it's not as "unpleasant" as you're making it out to be. I think you might be overreacting. They didn't namedrop you, and while the message is sour, they didn't say anything worse or unsavory. It's a minor form of irritation every artist that does commissions has had to deal with at least once. So they vented- honestly, this is nothing compared to how I've seen some artists treat their clients over something like this. Is it the most professional? No. Is it horribly unprofessional to the point where it warrants a refund and A_B? No, definitely not.

You're not entitled to a refund. The work was complete, the service you paid for was finished, albeit with disappointing results for you, but the artist is going out of their way to fix those colors free of charge just because you asked them to. Most artists wouldn't do that. Some would say "sorry, can't do that, work's done" and stick to their ToS, provided it says that.

I suggest in the future that you link the references that are the most accurate and keep your commission description/request short and concise. Lengthy descriptions and bloated journals confuse a number of artists, and it can make them unsure which references are the most accurate. If you have a ref sheet that you're happy with, stick with that one. If you think an artist portrayed something accurately, maybe link that as a second/optional/etc. ref ("I like the way this person drew the eyes/hair, if you can do that it'd be great").
Edited Date: 2015-10-11 12:37 am (UTC)


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