Money forcefully withheld

[kora-atlass.livejournal.com]

Alright so initially, I made an agreement with http://www.furaffinity.net/user/achondrite/ to spend $450 on a series of sketched comic pages, and an attitional $450 to ink them. Her policy, as stated by her LJ, is to accept full payment after the sketches were approved, which had not yet been done. She came to me a month or two later stating that she didn't like the subject material that I requested of her. After a debate in regards to working out a compensation commission, I made the comment that I was not personally pleased with her services. From there, she said that she was just going to do the sketches and refund me $400, instead of $450, and end the deal there. She also mentioned that she would be getting $300 by Friday, and a final check from her work next week. That friday, when I inquired about the other $50, thus bringing the sum up to $450, she said to consider that a fee for the thumbnails she did for proofing purposes ( which was not part of the agreement ). Also, that Friday she refunded $300 CAD, which is $274.86 USD. When I told her that CAD does not equal to USD and I expected the difference, she flat out refused to cooperate. Not only that, but she also states that it's going to be longer than a week, contrary to what she told me, to refund the rest of the money. She is also denying me my full, paid commission. From there, she blocked me, and here we are. She won't even send me the pages she's already done.

So long story short. I spent $675 just for her to shaft me.

I hope to bring this issue to the attention of her future commissioners with the hopes that she doesn't do the same thing to them.

Pics as proof
Her operational policies and procedures - http://b.imagehost.org/0746/payment2.jpg
Log of the agreement to do the 11 pages of sketches and $400 return for not doing inks - http://b.imagehost.org/0129/4_6.jpg
Her stating that she's charging me for thumbnails - http://b.imagehost.org/0666/6_18.jpg
Her denying me the full $400 return - http://b.imagehost.org/0189/3_11.jpg
Her denying me my commission - http://b.imagehost.org/0779/5_6.jpg

Edit: Whole chat logs, instead of the abridged versions

Log of her stating she has an issue with the commission and the agreement to do a substitute - http://b.imagehost.org/0185/3_5.jpg
Log of the agreement to scrap the substitute and do the orignal 11 pages and $400 return - http://b.imagehost.org/0978/1_1.jpg
Log of me informing her that if she doesn't want to remedy her mistake that I would inform the Artist Beware community - http://b.imagehost.org/0135/2_11.jpg

Edit2:

Uploaded a video scrolling through the chat logs if you feel that still images are too easy to edit

http://www.viddler.com/explore/Lavans/videos/3/

Comments

[starcharmer.livejournal.com]

You didn't even address a few of the things Achondrite mentioned which would deter any artist from accepting a commission from you.

Not to mention you don't have the most awesome track record even before this incident.

[kora-atlass.livejournal.com]

Addressed those issues in below post.

The only track record I have that's negative was with Leucrottia/Paka, which was nothing more than a he said she said confrontation.

Seems to me this is one big popularity contest. You guys hammered me asking for proof last time and now when I'm giving it to you, you guys don't listen.

[lilenth.livejournal.com]

Sorry, I don't believe you. We've heard several complaints about you, always the same issue. So yeah sorry but not buying it.

[kora-atlass.livejournal.com]

Last time the artist wasn't paid. Anchondrite was

[keymonster.livejournal.com]

I think i am going to side with the person you commissioned on this. I think you are just posting this to spite. And i agree with unsolvedsuicide, your track record isnt that good.

[kora-atlass.livejournal.com]

The only track record I have that's negative was with Leucrottia/Paka, which was nothing more than a he said she said confrontation.

Seems to me this is one big popularity contest. You guys hammered me asking for proof last time and now when I'm giving it to you, you guys don't listen.

[kora-atlass.livejournal.com]

Posted the entry before proofing it. Also made a comment in Achondrite's AB post here http://community.livejournal.com/artists_beware/201811.html?thread=5193299#t5193299 which I copy pasted here.

Actually the agreement was 11 pages, Achondrite, not 8. Also, you managed to get the first 2.5 sketches ( which were lacking in detail and environment ) done within a weeks time but I haven't seen any updates since then. And yes, I did say it was alright for you to take as much time as you needed. When you came to me saying you didn't want to do the commission and offered to do something else, I agreed and you accepted my request without problem. Though when I made the comment that I don't understand why we couldn't just scrap the commission all together, you blew up and said you were going to go back to the original commission and just do the rest of the sketches. From there, I figured that since you were only going to do half the job, that I should get half the money back and brought that to your attention. You said no, $400 is the max. You sent me $300 CAD ( which is roughly $275 ) that same day, I asked that you remedy the error and pay $125 instead of $100. You said that you weren't going to correct the error you made in sending me the wrong sum of money and just go ahead and send whatever you please. This where I drew the line and ousted you.

Don't take my word for it, let my chat logs do the talking.

Her operational policies and procedures - http://b.imagehost.org/0746/payment2.jpg
Log of her stating she has an issue with the commission and the agreement to do a substitute - http://b.imagehost.org/0185/3_5.jpg
Log of the agreement to scrap the substitute and do the orignal 11 pages and $400 return - http://b.imagehost.org/0978/1_1.jpg
Her denying me the full $400 return even after she sent the wrong currency - http://b.imagehost.org/0189/3_11.jpg
Log of me informing her that if she doesn't want to remedy her mistake that I would inform the Artist Beware community - http://b.imagehost.org/0135/2_11.jpg
Her denying me my commission - http://b.imagehost.org/0779/5_6.jpg

(Reply to this)(Thread)

[info]kora_atlass
2008-09-01 06:39 am UTC (link) DeleteTrack This

Oh and also, I banned you from my FA journal because I didn't want you making accusations without means of backing them up and escalating the issue further than what it already was. I never banned your friends, and I never asked my friends to rise to my defense. They did that on their own.

[alexds1.livejournal.com]

Agreed with the other posters, also Achondrite mentioned that you edited some of the images that you'd used as proof, which disinclines me to believe you...

[kora-atlass.livejournal.com]

No, she claims I left out bits of the chat logs. If you look at the links above and compare them with the links in my report, you'll not only see they match up but give the whole story as well.

[bladespark.livejournal.com]

Wait... you agreed to $450 for "a series of inked comic pages" and an additional $450 "to ink them?" Please get your story straight.

[kora-atlass.livejournal.com]

$450 for 11 sketches and an additional $450 to ink them.

[raggedtyger.livejournal.com]

Nice try, but I don't think you're fooling anyone.

[jademare.livejournal.com]

...

[kora-atlass.livejournal.com]

Uploaded a video scrolling through the chat logs if you feel that still images are too easy to edit

http://www.viddler.com/explore/Lavans/videos/3/

[the-lest.livejournal.com]

Just a question, and i'm not taking sides here. (Personally I feel you both are at fault, but we'll leave my opinion out of the rest of this comment.)

Why do you save so many chats? Or if you don't save many, then why these particular ones? Why are you in such a hurry to post "proof" in the form of chats? And for others to read the chats? I can understand wanting to keep your own records in order, but it seems to me like perhaps you store these logs up because you anticipate there will be issues, disagreements, drama, and an opportunity to get people on your side? I'm not making an accusation here, but I am curious.

You could have posted here, on this community, stated the facts, and not bothered with the chats... left them on the side until someone requested to see them. But you seem eager to "proove" something. That's something people often do when they're afraid they might be wrong and need justification of their actions...

I find that point interesting, is all.

[rainbow-roo.livejournal.com]

You're doing more harm then good by posting up an entry of your own shortly after someone made an entry about you. At most, you should leave/have left it at your response in their entry. By making your own, it just seems like you want to try and do to them what you perceive they have done to you.

Regardless of which side is more in the right or in the wrong - this entry and all the responses you are making is not helping you look good. Just an observation from a third party.

[thrivis.livejournal.com]

I think the entries were approved at generally the same time... so it's possible neither knew the other posted until they were both approved today.

[theblackdragon.livejournal.com]

you were certainly no saint, but neither was she. if she's not going to refund you more than 400 (hopefully US) dollars, i hope she'll at least be persuaded to get to you the art you've rightfully paid for. whether you were an impatient, annoying jerk about the whole thing or not, it still doesn't mean you deserve to be out $500 over a fit of pique.

[colonelinfrared.livejournal.com]

I don't really think think this post was necessary, since it just kind of seems like you're playing a childish game of 'She posted something baaad about me so I'm going to get that dirty whore back!' That's just really immature. Now, I might be reading this all wrong... But you want a full refund when she already did some of the sketches? I don't see why you think you deserve a full refund when she already did some of the commission, because it makes you look like you're trying to con people into free art.

:/

[kora-atlass.livejournal.com]

Actually no, I just want my 11 sketched pages and $400 back like promised. I would appreciate it if she went ahead and refunded the whole $450 for the inks which she doesn't want to do, but I won't hold that against her.

[hobokitten.livejournal.com]

Really, I have to side with Achondrite.
You've been posted here before, using relatively the same sort of tactics, and the fact that you sent trolls after them?
Not good.
I have a feeling this is just spite post, or an attempt at 'Maybe if I try and post first, they will be more inclined to believe me.'

[the-lest.livejournal.com]

I think people are being a little unfair to kora_atlass here. It seems people are eager to jump on him because of his track record (which I don't know much about, let me add.) Well, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. People can change their ways. I've been unprofessional with commissions in the past, (thankfully nothing serious but still..) and I've seen the errors of my ways.

There's fault on both sides of this one, it seems. Achondrite didnt refund the agreed amount because she felt the need to make an extra charge that was not agreed at the outset. At the same time, kora_atlass has shown behaiviour that could be called harrassing, and if not harrassing it is certainly very annoying.

Possibly kora_atlass is unaware of how his behaiviour affects the situation, so i'm writing it out plain for you to read.

. Asking personal questions about what the artist used the money for is very rude and intrusive. That's their business.

. Achondrite clearly has money issues for whatever her own personal and private reasons, and is struggling to make the refund. On the one hand this is her own fault and nobody else's. On the other, I can sympathise as I've been in similar situations myself. Harrassing someone for money they don't have - even if they owe it to you - when they have bills to pay, is not pleasant and will make them feel LESS inclined to pay you. I notice that when she tried to come to an agreement over the amount to be refunded, you didn't have a single thank you to say but were instantly on her back about it.

Being polite costs nothing but reaps rewards. If I were in your situation, I would have said to her "Thanks for the $300. I would like the rest of the money refunded too. If you can't afford it now, perhaps we can work something out." Rather than just harrassing her about it. Of course you aren't obliged to be nice to people, but you will usually get a better result if you do.

. Achondrite was not very professional. IMO she should have blocked kora_atlass early on, and transferred all communication to email - where you have more time to think before you type, and tempers are not lost so easily. Then she could lay out the situation in plain words: "I will send you $300 now, I will send you $50 next week" or whatever.

. Making threats to report her to a community is not a way to scare someone into giving you money. If she doesn't HAVE money she can't magic it up out of nowhere. If her electricity company is making similar threats about cutting off her supply, guess which one is going to be her priority.

PS. I apologise if you are female, kora_atlass, I couldn't find a gender on your page and don't like typing "they" so I just made a guess XD

[thrivis.livejournal.com]

This. I was thinking of something to say, but you said it better than I could have. ^^;

[plushabilities.livejournal.com]

I was here for the situation that happened with Paka. I also read Achondra's post on you. And I have to say, both seem too similar for my liking.

I can't even force myself to believe a word you've typed. The logs and images look almost scripted, like you were intending to cause drama from the start. From my vantage point, you were planning on this the entire time and, knowing that Acho would probably post here or to a similar community, you wanted something to 'prove' your innocence and set everyone against her.

[taasla.livejournal.com]

Chat logs can be edited without a problem. It isn't that hard to do. I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt, but considering the last post that was here, I can't.

I do agree that she should have repaid you in USD, and you are entitled to that. However that's the end of it, and you shouldn't have let your little buddies come after her. =\

[madd-tom-kit.livejournal.com]

check out the FA page now (how barren it is) and scroll through...kora posted a video of(no matter the bad quality cause you can compare the text) the actual aim convo.

[madd-tom-kit.livejournal.com]

WEll I'm going with Kora mainly because this reaction " Officially Done
Sorry guys, you can't play nice, you don't get shit. Bad outweighs the good, etc etc. Journal will be deleted in a day. " in the journal and deleting all submissions is pretty much admitting their guilt. Kora might be rude to commissioners but i for a fact know some commissioners can be very touchy and withdraw if they don't like something.

[achondrite.livejournal.com]

Hey, I thought I'd pop in to explain that journal.

Basically, I had at first posted a journal explaining my side of the story. Unfortunately, she used her other accounts and got her buddies to come over and troll me. So I deleted it and posted that one up. I only still have it up because the admins are deleting the nasties and trolls that respond to it.

[cedarwolf22.livejournal.com]

Wouldn't you think it sketchy if someone kept on requesting commissions cancelled (and refunded) in the middle of the process? I don't care what kind of arguments you went through to get to that point, it's still off-putting seeing it happen with you specifically with two artists in a row on the same project.

I'm inclined to believe the communication problem starts at your end, considering. Sorry, that' just how this whole thing comes off as.

[hellebore.livejournal.com]

hahahaha... I think both of you messed up a bit. But if I want to pick which of you was the worst: it's you by far.

[paka.livejournal.com]

At the risk of reopening old stuff;

When you commissioned me, ages ago, you talked a lot about how money was sparse and you couldn't afford to throw more than $60 towards four inked comic pages... plus maybe an extra $10 for making me do revisions. I know that I basically shafted myself on asking for money, and I'm delighted to see Achondrite ask for more, but I'm quite surprised to find that you now have $900 from somewhere to throw at a similar commission.

You hired a fair chunk of artist effort for $50. If you go with an hourly rate for art as a skilled trade of $20/h - and that might be cheap - you basically bought 2 1/2 hours of her sinking work into the commission, and it sure sounds like she put a lot more time into this. Given that I've seen you get roughs which mysteriously turned up, not once, but twice on an archive without artist permission or without the artist getting paid at all, I can't blame her for not immediately giving you anything.

And, lastly, the confrontational style of working with you as a commissioner is very off-putting. What I got from you towards the end, I saw as blame-throwing, guilt tripping and emotional abuse. I don't blame myself for just wanting to forget about the whole thing, and I certainly don't blame Achondrite for wanting to forget about the whole thing. The big reason I'm stepping into this one is that I would like Achondrite to see that, having been through a different version of the same thing, I want to show support for her.

Someone with an uncharitable view of human nature might accuse you of hiring people, then trying to cancel the commission to get unfinished art without having to pay full price - and of manipulating things emotionally so that you don't have to face your own responsibility for where wires got crossed. I would like to think that's not the case - that mistakes happen, sometimes the same mistakes repeatedly.

[kora-atlass.livejournal.com]

I can understand that you may be still a bit upset over the whole mess between us, and I apologize for that.

This issue is directly related to money and service. $900 is quite a bit of money when it comes to business. And while I should have refrained from commenting on her financial situation while talking business, it doesn't relieve her from the fact that she spent her commission money before the commission was completed. This, along with the fact that $900 is a lot for 11 inked pages, is a disaster waiting to happen given the right ingredients ( which may have been from one party or both parties ).

[likeshine.livejournal.com]

your "friend"'s dummy accounts on FA make you look like a total dick.

[majy-the-dragon.livejournal.com]

what a track record you have :U. Those dummy acounts dont help either.

[art-n-coffee.livejournal.com]

well if he paid he paid regardless of his track record.

if you paid that much theres proof in your paypal or checking account. if this is real i say take her to court thats more money then alot of people go to court over.

[kora-atlass.livejournal.com]

Believe me, if I had a shred of personal information on her, I would have dropped the legal hammer on her long ago. Sad as it is, judging by how none of her accounts on FA, LJ, or DA seem to be active, it seems she high tailed it out of the online community and is either an internet hermit now or has all new accounts with a whole new name.