(no subject)

[b-rose-exterio.livejournal.com]

WHO: Joojoo

WHERE: http://www.furaffinity.net/user/joojoo/

WHAT: A full coloured ych won via auction.

WHEN: February 16th up until March 17th. (I'm Australia so some of these dates may be a day ahead to some.)

PROOF: Links below. (Most links are nsfw)

EXPLAIN: (Below the cut)

Joojoo had posted a ych that my mate and I fell in love with that would be done in their best quality with a low starting bid. (Example of quality given was http://www.furaffinity.net/view/18817265/ nsfw) We've both been wanting a piece from her so I started bidding on the ych.

Proof of ych: (nsfw)
https://gyazo.com/7a0b632479582bea12d67518810a4557
https://gyazo.com/0c6a86409b9390890f3dcce3d27eb2d4
https://gyazo.com/ed1eec991d5f393c97b0493db39a948f

My mates fursona has wings and since I didn't see anything regarding them before I won, I noted them asking if they were okay with adding wings. They responded saying they were okay with doing so and not soon after told me I won the ych (At 90 usd). I promtly sent them the payment and reference sheets and they responded saying they would send me a wip of the line-art since I paid over 60$.

Screencap of the note: https://gyazo.com/a961261c22d6a25436aa55f62d27c961

I do not have any screencaps of this since I didn't think it would be needed to be but not too long afterwards they had set up a stream and were working on my piece. Everything was looking great and only needed a few small changes. (Missing a piercing and asked them to add a another strand of hair to the side of the "female"'s face-which the artist did) and they linked me to a fullshot of the lineart once they were done. I told them everything looked great but I needed them to fix hir tongue as it is suppose to be forked instead of rounded. They ended the stream afterwards.

On the 22nd they had uploaded a submission saying they were going on hiatus because of the drama that was going on. (I don't know much about it except what was going on on their submissions. Apparently they took a big group ych and spent the money and decided that they weren't going to finish it and would rather refund but would take a few months to refund as they already spent the money that they got on food and such. A lot of people were upset about it and demanding their money back so they were 'stressed') and then disabled their page.

Original submissions showing the hiatus:
https://gyazo.com/e14139dd469a8d148eecdc7a322ee735
https://gyazo.com/53567ed341192b1bae773c020ef431a9
(I also have the screencaps of the comments but I'm not sure to whether or not they are needed)

On the 26th they re-enabled their page and uploaded a few pieces of personal artwork.

On the 29th I had to move and didn't have any internet access.

On the 8th I was able to get on for a short amount of time and saw that they had uploaded even more personal art and were taking on even more commissions but still hadn't touched my piece. I wasn't able to note them as I couldn't be on long enough to be able to.

Screencap of taking on more commissions: https://gyazo.com/14681688e511f9a4b162b9446896c264

On the 17th (Yesterday) I finally got internet access again, they hadn't noted me or alerted to me that the piece was finished so we decided to look on their page and we saw that they had uploaded my piece on the 10th.
When I looked at the piece my mate and I quickly realized that a lot of things were wrong. A lot of the colours were either wrong or markings were missing all together and the correction I asked for on the lineart had been forgotten. (Eyes, nipples, ear piercings, collar and tongue we're the completely wrong colour, the nails on both of characters hadn't even been coloured, my mates fursona was missing ear and torso markings, my fursona was missing his Aura and hand markings, ect. (Other things were pointed out in the note screencap below))

The original image received: https://gyazo.com/16db12b02660c83c30646f16fc790014 (nsfw)
Our refsheets for comparrision:
Exterio- http://www.furaffinity.net/view/17059927 (nsfw)
Raven- https://www.furaffinity.net/view/14871849/ (nsfw)

I quickly noted them saying I felt as if they had rushed the piece, that I hand't received a flat colour Wip and asked them to fix the list of things that were wrong. (I will admit I was probably a little knit picky with things such as the rune on the head of the tip in the first shot and such but I was very appalled how they could have gotten so many things wrong.)

They responded within a few minutes saying that they spent 15 hours on the piece that it was not rushed and they would not be making any of the changes. That she was sorry to loose me as a customer but that they wouldn't do any FREE alterations as her "time on this ych was used." and that it wasn't her priority at the moment and wouldn't be addressing this "complaint" at this time.

Proof: https://gyazo.com/3ad8c6a6304e03a8017c7cfbc77c4445

I noted them back telling them that I would be filing a chargeback through paypal if they didn't do the corrections as I didn't pay them by the time that I paid them the amount I won the auction by and that they were mistakes that they made as the references we're very clear on the things she missed. I also told them I would be writing an artist beware on them.

They responded with two notes.
The first saying it was not their priority at the moment as they "did all the work!". That if I filed a chargeback they would phone paypal and if I wrote an ab they would be writing heavily in response of their defense and that I would also be blacklisted. They said that they do not answer to "blackmail" and that they did not say that they would not make the changes in the future but it's not on their current to do before again saying that I WILL be blacklisted if I carry out "these blackmails" as work had been made and "a forced refund would be theft."

The second said that she would be able to make the changes within a week and it was the best that she could offer on her schedule.

First note: https://gyazo.com/ab4afedbe86a535f272f4ee8a48ee0b5
Second note: https://gyazo.com/02e972ab351b35ac97f43a5fa5b8e37d

I noted her back politely saying that I would note her in a week then and said thank you then went to bed.

I woke up and saw that she responded a few minutes after my last note saying that she would make the changes just to be rid of me as quickly as possible. That they had never been so insulted in their life and that they pity anyone who I commission in the future with the "language that I demonstrated today" (I didn't curse at all) and "Obvious disregard for the work artist put into their work."
Proof: https://gyazo.com/442a590b1c945aba7a39f01fe919bc60

Within not even an hour later after her previous note she notes me back with the lineart wip she has originally sent me and the fixed piece saying that as a last goodbye that she would like to mention that she did update me, that she has witnesses, "4 actually" that can vouch that I was in the stream during the lining process and gave her the a-ok and that for "Blatant blackmail", she will be suspending me from accessing her account and blocked me afterwards. (In the screenshots above you can see that I didn't say she never gave me any wips, I said that she didn't give me a flat coloured one.)

Proof of note:
Fixed piece: https://gyazo.com/724f567374e5ee7e6bb7527835edcdad ( Nsfw) A few things are missing but I'm just happy she changed anything at all at this point.


I'm sorry if I made any mistakes as this is my first artist beware as I've never had such a bad experience with an artist out of over the hundreds of artist I have commissioned. (Literally hundreds as you can see by my gallery) and my mate had to help me write this.
I didn't want to have to write this but the attitude of this artist throughout the entire process was very rude and I wanted to warn future commissioners of the way she handles mistakes she has made and her work ethic.


Edit: I forgot to clarify in my original post that I had no intentions of wanting a full refund. Paypal has an option to only ask for a certain amount back and that is what I planned on doing.

Comments

[thekingtheory.livejournal.com]

I think saying you're going to file a chargeback was probably not the way to go and would heavily upset me as an artist. Perhaps, if this ever happens again (which I hope it doesn't), just express that you're disappointed and say you'll just go to Artist Beware or ask for a partial refund since they didn't do all of the work they should have.

Though I have to say that the artist saying they pity anyone you commission in the future is just not a good thing to say, in my opinion.

[b-rose-exterio.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I forgot to clarify in my post that I wasn't planning on doing a chargeback for the entire amount. Just a partial. I admit I came off a little harsh, but they acted as if they weren't going to do the fixes and had a bad attitude about me asking.

[bourbon. (from livejournal.com)]

Oh you're the one whom they made the dramatic journal regarding. I didn't have a chance to screenshot it (they removed it quickly).

They were very angry and saying something about how they have to work extra on a commission because the commissioner was harassing them (linking directly to the image they drew for you, so it wasn't a secret who it was about). It was all pretty aggressive and unnecessary. I don't agree with how she behaved at all regarding it, nor do I think it's okay to outright refuse to do changes. She could have offered changes for a minor fee (which is how I and a lot of other artists do it).


However, requesting a full refund for work finished (even if there were some things done wrong) isn't okay either. The work was completed, and the artist does deserve to be compensated for the work done. A partial refund would be more fair.

[celestinaketzia.livejournal.com]

It was color errors that the artist made. I wouldn't suggest charging for that.

[bourbon. (from livejournal.com)]

Oh yeah, I agree on that, I commented on her journal pointing out that fixes to markings and colors should be pretty easy. I'd fix colors free of charge, personally, because it's a very simple edit to make.

[b-rose-exterio.livejournal.com]

Ah, I saw a couple of journals that I suspected were about me that I have screencapped but I sadly didn't see that one.

As for the changes she said she wouldn't do any 'free' changes, insinuating that if she would do them if I paid her but as Celestinaketzia said that if it's the artist's error it's not right for her to want to charge for them. The majority of the changes were colour edits the only lineart edits were the corset piercing and the tongue.

And to copy and paste what I said above
"Yeah, I forgot to clarify in my post that I wasn't planning on doing a chargeback for the entire amount. Just a partial. I admit I came off a little harsh, but they acted as if they weren't going to do the fixes and had a bad attitude about me asking."

[celestinaketzia.livejournal.com]

Saying you put X amount of time into something, so you don't have to fix your own mistakes is really bizarre. I've literally never heard of anyone doing that. Your refs are very clear, so the onus was on the artist to fix it.

It's a shame the artist took the original "fixed" version down, because the high res still had a lot of color errors present that were just really strange.

[spartanwerewolf.livejournal.com]

We talked about the bucket-filling and not bothering to touch up; did they "fix" that?

[celestinaketzia.livejournal.com]

I didn't bring it up, because the OP didn't have the full res anymore. When it was up the bucket fill errors were really apparent. Which if I got that as a client, I'd call it rushed too. You can still see them on the lower res version somewhat but they're not as apparent.

[tylociraptor.livejournal.com]

I can't see it being worth a full refund in any event, as the work was completed, even with errors. Without the YCH screenshot it's impossible to tell what the terms of completion were, but the artist does state in their notes that no in progress shots (aside from the inks which apparently were done in a stream?) were going to be shown, so I'd err towards that.

Additionally, while you say you paid the price the YCH ended for and not for their time... you're very wrong. When you commission someone, whether or not they discuss exactly how many hours you've purchased, it's still paying for the time. It's irrelevant to the situation at hand, considering the needed edits, but it's important to keep in mind and understand in future transactions!

In this case it's important to note whether or not the artist's TOS or the terms listed at the auction included edits and under what circumstances.

Should she have made the edits without complaint? Yes, they were pretty big missed parts, especially the markings. Would you be entitled to a full refund / should you have threatened a chargeback? No, absolutely not. While the artist is in the wrong here I do think there are things you could learn from the situation.

(Edited to correct some punctuation!)

[b-rose-exterio.livejournal.com]

I'll copy and paste what I said above regarding the chargeback."
"Yeah, I forgot to clarify in my post that I wasn't planning on doing a chargeback for the entire amount. Just a partial. I admit I came off a little harsh, but they acted as if they weren't going to do the fixes and had a bad attitude about me asking."

I do have the ych screenshotted under "Proof of ych" all the information regarding the ych was in there and besides that they do not have a t.o.s posted anywhere.

Where I said I paid for the price the ych ended and not their time. I meant it as in they didn't have times listed and it wasn't a ladder auction. It said "full coloured ych" and was listed at a starting bid of 25$. Even if I would have won at starting bid they said it would be fully coloured. She seemed to try to use how much time she put into against me as that she didn't have to do edits since she put that much time into it.

All and all I did learn that I could have handled the situation better.

[celestinaketzia.livejournal.com]

I agree. Time management for a project and charging the correct amount for an auction are on the artist. If you paid for a completion level, then the artist needs to deliver at that completion level.

[n.livejournal.com]

Oh they're the person who took on the 100+ character YCH project that never got all the slots filled up.

Can't say I'm surprised that didn't pan out.

I've had a run-in with them myself, but in my case, they took down my piece for editing because they claimed to have made some mistakes, and took forever to send me the hi-res image. They never re-uploaded my finished piece, and they never updated me about edits after the fact either.

Left a bad taste in my mouth so I just silently unwatched and opted to not commission them again, but seeing how they're huffing about in this situation is just poor form.

[ljmydayaway.livejournal.com]

I can see how the artist could miss some of Raven's things, due to posing and your ref (the right half) having some things missing (like lip color and mouth color). This would make me think the glowing is optional and the mouth has a pink tint on my screen, so I could see how they could think the character's tongue was pink when not glowing. I personally don't think the corset piercing should have been showing due to the pose.

However, were it me, I would have made the changes. It's a lot of changes, but they're all really small, and all of them were something that were shown on the ref and just missed. It wouldn't take long, and it would make the customer happy.

It doesn't look any more rushed than the example, and (my personal opinion) I like the shading in this one better than the example. The example is flat colors with a little cel shading, while yours has brush strokes, more detailed coloring and soft shading. I see some things that bother me (like not coloring under the linework and a couple little white spots where the fill tool didn't fill out all the way), but these issues are on the example as well (harder to see due to the lighter colors, though), so I think the quality is comparable.

You really started this off on the wrong foot with your first message. You started out by suggesting the artist didn't take much time on it and demanding changes, rather than requesting/asking for them. "This looks rushed, like you spent no time on it at all! I need these changes done immediately!" puts someone on the defense, while "Hey, I like how it looks so far, but there's some things missing that are on my ref. Could you please make changes to the follow things: x, x, x, x, x Also, I don't like the brush details, would it be possible to make it look more like the example image?" is just easier to swallow. Not that she should have responded the way she did or that this would have kept them from becoming upset, but just something to consider for the future. :P

(Edited because I can't tell my left from my right. Sorry, mods.)

[lunar-orchids.livejournal.com]

Holy busy ref sheet batman @-@; tbh i can see how someone could miss a few details on your mates ref sheet its kinda busy. Its got a lot going on in there. Maybe adding some text details to the actual sheet might help a little instead of just in the info box? If an artist doesnt have net and saves the info off site busier refs tend to sometimes have some details skipped. Less is more is a really good idea.

I also think you got a little more detail then the examples she had listed b3cause of your mates black coat. Black characters in general are hard to work with because you cant see the lines if its not done correctly. I kind of like the coloring job on yours compared to the others but its not my commission.

As for the changes your first note was kind of harsh and would put me on the defensive abit. While color changing isnt difficult if you gave directions in stream and werent there to witness the changes personality sometimes people forget. Its human nature, i personalily have the memory of a goldfish. I tend to keep a note pas on my desk just to jot little notes to myself otherwise zip out the window it goes. So yeah, its always best if you mention some changes to an srtist in stream. Also note or email them to. People forget extra little remindera are always a blessing. Your not going to bother anyone if you do it because honestly some streams go so fast messages are like a blip and then gone.
The behavior of the artist in the journals she was posting i assume after your engagement on the situation is slightly to very unprofessional though and i think the beware is well deserved but i hope in the future you double read your notes before sending. The full refund thing would kinda put a sour note in my expression as well. Even with some mistakes a finished product was delivered even if it wasnt exactly what you requested.

Yay.i babble lots x.x!

[ravensmoon666.livejournal.com]

I'm actually in the works for a new reference sheet at the moment that covers all of these things. I've never had an artist have this many issues with my fursona or I would have clarified more. We mainly had an issue with the colours because besides the tongue tip they didn't miss any of my sona's piercings or anything and did an overall, good job. :/

(frozen)

[b-rose-exterio.livejournal.com]

The lip colour is wrong in the second image yes but everything else is there. Unless the artist cropped out the left images completely she would still know that hir lips are blue and so is the tongue. The mouth isn't open in the image on the right and the pink is shading. The corset piercing comes up to inbetween hir wings/shoulder blades so it would be showing.

I also said it felt as if it was rushed because it looked as if the artist hadn't looked at the reference sheets. Missing things such as hir ear, torso markings and such and is understandable and a common mistake according to my mate but missing the nipple colour, eye colour and mouth colour when in every image the character has hir top off, you can see hir eyes and hir tongue out in the majority of them makes it seem careless.

(frozen)

[ljmydayaway.livejournal.com]

"The mouth isn't open in the image on the right and the pink is shading."

Yes, but it doesn't read that way when you look at it because there's no markings showing that it's teeth. It took me until the 3rd or 4th time I looked at it (while I was writing my comment) before I realized it must be teeth.

Including an incorrect ref with your ref screws with artists. I've messed up pictures because people have given me multiple refs that are not 100% correct without mentioning what's incorrect on it. That's not fair to the artists, because they don't know for sure what's supposed to be right and what's not - since it's not their character - and leads them to assumptions that aren't correct.

"I also said it felt as if it was rushed because it looked as if the artist hadn't looked at the reference sheets."

When customers say "it looks rushed", they mean that it looks like the art isn't the same in quality to their other pieces. And that's how you meant it, because you noted their example. You didn't only mean that they missed things and therefore you think they rushed through it, because you would have said that to the artist instead of comparing the pictures.

It's totally possible to mean well and do your best and still miss things, especially with characters that have very busy ref sheets and complicated little pieces that are easy to forget about, without rushing through it. I've done this more than once not because I was rushing, but just because I didn't SEE it in the ref because it was so small! Or I just didn't notice it because... I don't know, I got busy drawing and didn't realize it was on the ref. I'm not doing it because I'm rushing, I just at some point either forgot it was there or never saw it in the first place, so it didn't end up in the picture (but I always add it in since it's my screw up - but that's not everyone's policy).

Sorry that I disagree with your approach to this. Artists aren't perfect robots, yo. They make mistakes, and again, while I think she should have fixed it all without being grumpy about it, she has her own policies/etc. and I don't think you should have immediately threatened a chargeback.

(frozen)

[ravensmoon666.livejournal.com]

As my mate said above the only way she could have possibly have thought that is if she cropped the image to show only the one on the right which would be her own fault. :/ Especially since you're the only person I have ever had think that image shows hir open mouth and even then an artist should have used the the tool dropper to get proper colours instead of guessing. Artist aren't robots, yes but I'm an amateur artist on my side account and I always try to pay attention to every detail on refs given and if I'm unsure I ask my commissioners. If she was unsure about anything she should have asked. Neither of us would have minded answering. :3

(frozen)

[ljmydayaway.livejournal.com]

I agree that the artist should have asked and communicated more with you, and made the changes without issue, as they were all things she missed on the sheet.

But I also know that I've missed things by accident, and certainly not because I was rushing.

No one is in the right in this, and your guys' excuses for threatening a chargeback (and not deserving one) and being aggressive off-the-bat don't change that I think the artist had every right to blacklist you both, and that I would have done the same.

(frozen)

[ravensmoon666.livejournal.com]

Above my mate has stated that he was only going to charge a partial charge back and that it was wrong to jump to it without clarifying. The artist doesn't deserve the full amount if they didn't portray the characters right.

(frozen)

[ljmydayaway.livejournal.com]

lol OK, you can't do a partial chargeback. Even if paypal has the 'option' for it, your b/f didn't say that to the artist and paypal will still pull the whole thing.

Stop replying to me. Literally nothing you say will change my opinion and I am personally blacklisting both you and your 'mate' just in case.

(frozen)

[b-rose-exterio.livejournal.com]

Neither of us have any interest in dealing with someone with an attitude as bad as yours anyway, so you blacklisting both of us is only a benefit to us in the end.

(frozen) MOD COMMENT

[kayla-la.livejournal.com]

Alright, this is getting pretty hostile, I'm going to freeze this here.

[likeshine.livejournal.com]

Color mistakes aside, I don't understand how the wing attaches in the pose on the right, there's no membrane at all that I can see.

OP, everyone else already said it better than me. Jumping right in with the threat of a chargeback would have raised my hackles too, although I do believe the artist is in the wrong here. I also agree that adding some text details to your mate's ref would be helpful.

[enn shaw (from livejournal.com)]

Both of you messed up.

[chaossal.livejournal.com]

Wow after reading this I unwatched them. Very awful behavior, you paid to have your sona drawn WITH their markings! They can not charge you extra or say they don't have to add them or fix there mistakes, they should have been there in the first place!