In Need of Advice...

[empressamihisss.livejournal.com]

Not necessarily a Beware; I'm in need of advice.

Okay, so, I've been in contact with this someone for a few months now. Right off the bat I knew this guy was not intelligent, and I was rather suspicious. We net via Concept Art, and he decided to bug me on AIM. I talked to him, albeit begrudgingly, for a while. Then, I end up showing him my user page on Fur Affinity. He was rather stunned, and i told him I make money via online commissions.

What does he do? He ends up buying two commissions from me, throwing out 110 of his money, because he COULD NOT decide what he wanted! As in, composition wise. I tried to tell him that, no, I could not accept the money until he knew what he had in mind for the commissions, but he was rather stubborn and tossed childish logic at me. Shaking it off, and seeing as he barraged me for a couple of days, I relented, and gave him my paypal address.

He sent the 110, and I, quite literally, bugged him for WEEKS about the commissions. I felt antsy and nervous because I wanted to have the agreement set in stone, afraid he could rip me off by taking the money back and giving paypal an asinine excuse when he gave me nothing to work from in the first place.

That's not the weird part, either. The weird part is he tried to get to know me. Personally. I'm 15, this man is 24, and he told me he loved me, and that I was beautiful. I, indirectly, called him a pedophile at one point, and he took offense. Though, remembering our transaction, and not wanting it to end on a sour note, I patched it up, and again asked him about his commission.

He flipped out on me, yet again, accusing me of being distant, telling me to fuck off, and saying I only wanted to talk to him so I could get money out of him.

Note that I did not know this guy personally. I didn't even know his name by this point. We stop communication For a few weeks, and Thanksgiving rolls around. I tell him Happy Thanksgiving just because I felt mean for not talking to him.

We start up communication again by this point, and I ask him if he would like a refund of his money, as he did not tell me what he wanted, and I would've felt a whole mess better had he just taken his money back. Did he take his money back? No. He starts talking to me about getting a new motorcycle. Again. And, he tells me he wants me to do a motorcycle wrap for him. (This was a bit before Thanksgiving and our second fall out. Sorry for being out of order. : X )

I kinda scratched my head, but agreed. Like an idiot. A few months went by, and my mother fell into a deeper financial hole. I've been helping the family out by stockpiling commission money away, and making sure people get their artwork in return, and he was no different. I kept asking him for the 400 for the commission to help out my family. Did he ever listen? No.

Instead, he tried to send my family food stamps, bought me a few things for Christmas, (From my public Amazon wishlist.. It made me -very- uncomfortable; even more so after I told him I didn't want anything.) and a few times, subtly tried to get my home address. Alarm bells were going off in my head by this point, and I just avoided AIM altogether for a while.

I get back on AIM a couple of weeks later, and he tells me he needs my paypal address. I knew he wouldn't relent. So; begrudgingly, I gave him my address. This was about a week and a half ago. Have I heard from him since? Nope.

Okay, just as a recap, he's thrown around money and told me to keep it. I try to get some semblence of coherent thought and intelligence with his money on his part, but he has thusfar shown none. He tosses 110 at me with no intent of EVER trying to figure out what he wants me to draw for him, (And STILL hasn't.) and has refused a refund from me. He has been rather creepy towards my person, in a -way- too nice and friendly way, has been a total headache to work with, and has thusfar said he will pay me the 400 for his motorcycle wrap, but hasn't done so for almost two and a half months. And the last week and a half he has fallen off the face of the earth.

I honestly have no idea what to do about the situation anymore. It's troubling and niggling at the back of my head at all times, but I can't rectify the situation without his full cooperation, which he has not been giving me. Please, please, please, if you guys could toss your words of wisdom my way I'd be very happy; as I myself just can't handle the situation anymore.

Comments

[anjel-kitty.livejournal.com]

This man's contact with you is illegal. If you're 15 and he is just giving you money and is trying to get your address, that just leads me to believe he wants to do inappropriate things with you. I would send him a very firm and civil email telling him that you need to know what he wants for a commission by this date, or you will see his money as forfeit if he does not want to take it back. It is good that you have such insight at 15 and I thinks he expects you to be more receptive eventually, but these sort of people pray on young girls naivety, and so you need to just be straight up with him and if he does not comply, cut off contact. Don't wish him Happy Thanksgiving, don't msg him becaues you feel bad. I've seen creepy guys do this to artist before, but the fact this guy is so insistent and you are still a minor is very unsettling, and I would Highly advise you cut contact.

[empressamihisss.livejournal.com]

I have done so as of a few hours ago. :) Of course this man will get no message from me what-so-ever if I, "feel bad" about not messaging him. (I meant, because it was a Holiday, and we had had a rather nasty falling out. I'm way too nice, but I've been having alarm bells since that point in time.)

[growly.livejournal.com]

Forcefully refund and block. :/ He sounds REALLY fucking creepy, like stalkerish.

[starcharmer.livejournal.com]

This. I'd just refund his money and tell him you're sorry but you can't do the wrap anymore. I'd probably block him as well, and on FA and CA [if that's possible on CA].

[ursulav.livejournal.com]

Gifts on their part do not obligate anything on your part (and yes, it's creepy.)

You're way too young--I mean this legally, not condescendingly--for this to be in any way shape or form healthy or normal for this guy to be doing. This is seriously weirdo behavior and you're right to find it such. You don't have to take it, you don't have to deal with it, and the fact he's given you stuff doesn't obligate you to ANYTHING.

Be grateful he's fallen off the face of the earth, pray to god he doesn't come back, if he does, don't reply to his e-mails. Don't send him letters trying to explain your side, don't talk to him out of pity--don't deal with him AT ALL.

This is freaky weird stalker behavior. People like this are trying to get contact with you. They don't care what the contact is, and if they nag you and act weird at you and you respond, what they learn is not that they shouldn't DO this, it's that what they need to get a response out of you is to be naggy and weird.

That said--for professionalism's sake, if he comes back and asks for a refund, try to give him one, but that's the ONLY contact I'd have with him.

[ursulav.livejournal.com]

Also--forgive me if this sounds hopelessly old of me, but have you mentioned this to your parents? You haven't done anything wrong, you shouldn't be embarassed to do so, and if dude is trying to get your home address, there are some major safety reasons why you might wanna mention it to them.

[fatkraken.livejournal.com]

get out. Refund the money, all of it, and cut off all contact. If he's bouncing your paypal transactions (can you do that?) send the refund in a way he can't refuse, bank transfer or cash or something. Block him from AIM, any packages he sends post back with "return to sender". Do not accept any more work from him. This guy sounds like a MASSIVE creep and you need to get away from the situation as soon as possible.

I know money is tight, but you do NOT need it from a 24 year old nutter who doesn't understand the concept of boundaries (and probably won't follow up on any comission stuff anyway)

[empressamihisss.livejournal.com]

Of course! I'm not allowing myself to gamble with something like this. I'm making damn sure this guy will never be able to contact me again after I can give him his money back.

[taasla.livejournal.com]

Like the two above said, he sends all sorts of red flags flying. Take down anything that he can use to send you a gift. (The Amazon wishlist... etc. or hide it)

Sometimes people give you gifts to be nice, and other times they just come off being creepy. The fact that he's that much older than you makes it really creepy. Don't give into anything and block him. If you can forcefully refund, then do it.

[westly-roanoke.livejournal.com]

Run like the wind.

As everyone else has said. Force a refund and block.

Contact PayPal if you have to to do it...

[martes.livejournal.com]

Refund the money, tell your parents, and contact the police. Save any emails or AIMS, particularly ones where he says he loves you. If he has your PayPal form he probably has your mailing adress. A call or visit from the police will scare the bejesus out of him, and will leave a papertrail in case you need to take further action. If he's done this to you he's probably going to do it to another teenage girl, and if getting the law involved now will prevent a girl from being victimized then you should do it.

[empressamihisss.livejournal.com]

I've told my mom, my dad doesn't know anything about my commissioning nature, (Divorced parents. Baw.) sadly I don't think I've saved any of the AIM conversations.

He only has the e-mail, and all I know is his name is Chris. (Or so he says.. But he was dumb enough to give me a photo of himself... Which I HOPE I saved. x_x)

[warsawkook.livejournal.com]

Get out of this situation ASAP. Block him on AIM, on FA, everywhere else, Email him "ideas by x date or I'm refunding the money", bounce the money back when he doesn't respond with ideas, and block him from your EMail.

DON'T let him get a hold of any further information from you, contact or personal or anything. (You would be SHOCKED how easy it is to get someone's detailed personal info with just their name alone, but if he IS as dumb as you say... hopefully he doesn't know the tricks of the trade.)

Seriously, from someone who's dealt with people like this - just GTFO NOW before something stupid and/or ugly happens. - and if he persists then get the authorities involved. He may himself be physically harmless, BUT the mental anguish it causes you will be enough.

[empressamihisss.livejournal.com]

Exactly my plan. But honestly, I think by this point, even so much as asking him, when I have gone months and months of waiting for a reply to what he wants,. would be too much. I'll refund him, and block contact. That will be the end of it.

I'll be sure to notify the authorities if anything ugly happens, but for now - I'm just going to do the professional thing. Refunding him and blocking him.

[hobokitten.livejournal.com]

I agree with every one here :|
It is really not worth the risk. this guy sends up major creepy red flags.
Money may be tight, but this may be your safety your gambling with.

[katze-neko-mew.livejournal.com]

I agree. Get the police involved no matter what you have to do to convince them, but showing them the AIM convos will be enough if they're up to snuff on predators and stuff. Ever heard of Cris Hansen? Dateline? Yeah, look them up. This shit happens, and you better stay careful and stay safe. Thank god your mom knows. Good girl there.

I agree with everyone to the tenth power D: Ruuuuuuuuuuuuuuun!

[oceandezignz.livejournal.com]

If you're using the newest version of AIM, I could have sworn it did you the favor of 'auto-logging'. I can't recall if thats for sure or not but IF (strong IF) you go on AIM and deal with this man again - pleaassseee make sure its on. Hard evidence is hard. He can't simper and say 'she owed me' when there are logs of him HITTING on you instead of doing business.

Also, do yourself a favor and get the admins CA in on that - I don't think they'd enjoy knowing someone is using their services to get underaged internet booty... seriously. :/

You seem to have most of your bases covered already which is excellent. I applaud you. Good luck and keep us posted maybe if you can.

Re: I agree with everyone to the tenth power D: Ruuuuuuuuuuuuuuun!

[empressamihisss.livejournal.com]

Oh, I definitely will keep ya'll posted. :3

Oh hey, I actually didn't think to contact the CA admins.. Yeah, the thing was, at first I thought the guy was a troll.

He said his friend was an artist, and so he wanted to try his hand. What did he show me? A knight and a castle. :| Only it looked like a three year old did it.

And he was actually serious about it. My troll senses tingled TO THE MAX by the piont, but then gave way to pedo-vibes.. Eurgh.

[weirdmisty.livejournal.com]

Everyone before has already given good advice about avoiding the guy, so I'll move past that one. However, you are gonna want to save any chat longs, emails, private messages, or anything else you have from him. If it becomes necessary, any leftovers from your contact with him can be used as evidence; there's a good chance that his behavior falls under at least one of several laws regarding contacting minors.

[sorethumb.livejournal.com]

Alarm bells went off pretty late for you, eh? You're lucky you haven't given him your address, I think.

Be very careful, and back away slowly. If he gets really extreme, get ready to use the cop card.

[empressamihisss.livejournal.com]

Alarm bells didn't go off as quickly because my niche of people I communicate with is.. dodgy at best. But this guy..

I'm not naive, I don't give out my address or ANY personal contact information to people over the 'net.. :/ (Unless it's an actual business transaction, by which case the money order is forwarded to my mothers office address.)

[neolucky.livejournal.com]

I'd personally like to know what this guy goes by online for future "DO AVOID" list.

I've dealt with similar, almost exact situations. Everything else has been pretty much covered. This shouldn't be just an 'advice' post, but an honest 'beware' one.

[digitalis.livejournal.com]

I can only agree with the very good advice you've gotten from other folks here, stop all contact with this guy (so creepy!), keep a log, and keep your mom in the loop.

[aerfox.livejournal.com]

Ffff, keep his money as some kind of 'Being-a-Horrible-Creep-Fee.'
It's his fault, he insisted you take the money, he didn't do anything when you told him to tell you what he wanted for said money, he duped you out of another $400, forget him. Please, don't talk to this creep, even to initiate a refund. His cash was forfeit the moment he started thinking he could diddle a fifteen year old and gain their trust through cash.

You're very mature and have handled the situation correctly. I wish there were more girls out there like you. We'd have a lot less problems in the world I can tell you that! :D

[empressamihisss.livejournal.com]

Hell yeah!

Hey, thanks a lot. :3 Yeah. I honestly don't feel I need to give him any sort of refund. I'm just dropping contact all together. Though that might be unprofessional; dealing with someone like him in a relationship that was not platonic on his terms, at all, is unprofessional in itself. :/

[alcyione.livejournal.com]

Wow. My kid sister is your age, and it just made me cringe thinking about a man who is closer in age to me, acting like that towards you.

I think that everyone else here has pretty much said everything that I'm thinking. Also - with the PayPal, was your home address visible ANYWHERE on the transaction? I know that whenever I pay, it lists my shipping address (but I can't remember if it's visible to the other end automatically or not).

Not that I really think you have anything to worry about, especially because you've been upfront with your mom about the whole ordeal... but it's yet another big reason to contact the authorities.

Good luck! I'm glad you came to this community for advice, even though it seems like you've got a good head on your shoulders, and you already pretty much know what to do. :)

[dazen-cobalt.livejournal.com]

I think paypal only reveals the address depending on what you say the cash is for such as goods/service/cash advance and so forth. But don't quote me on that. I've had plenty of transfers to myself, but only once did it come with someone's addy along with it

[thaily.livejournal.com]

If he insisted you keep the money, and you have a log of it, keep the money. Sounds like he damn well wasted 110 bucks worth of your time with his inane simpering and vile attempts to hook up with you.

Keep all logs, back them up in case you ever need to prove what a creepy dick he is and then cut off all contact. Tell your friends that if he contacts them not to reply to him -at all-, just block him. He's sending out serious creepy stalker vibes and there's no way to get rid of a stalker except to deny him the satisfaction of any contact at all.

[theredangel.livejournal.com]

Keep the money and block him on all fronts. Serves him right for being a creepo.

[missixis.livejournal.com]

THIS.

After all, you did offer refunds. It aint your fault.

[epiceternity.livejournal.com]

Hmm, I don't think this guy has a healthy interest in you. Saying you do commissions on Fur Affinity which is often thought of as a furry porn site may have given him the wrong idea.

As extra security keep a record of everything that happened and when in case you need to go to the police. If he does start being a nuisance then you need to report every incidence to the police for them to build a record too otherwise they won't do much. I'm not saying that anything will happen to warrant it but thought I'd mention it as it might be useful. They'll probably try and fob you off with 'can't do anything about the net' but don't be put off by this.

Personally I don't think staying in contact with this guy for so long is ideal. I would NOT do any commission/ artwork for this guy, do a paypal refund on the money and stop any contact what so ever with this guy (no matter what the provocation)

You may need to ask to Amazon to about the unwanted gifts, they may be able to take things back or block him from sending things.

[jesspark.livejournal.com]

In addition to all the good advice already offered to you about what to do regarding the money and commission requests, please read Gavin de Becker's The Gift of Fear (http://www.amazon.com/Gift-Fear-Gavin-Becker/dp/0440508835/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1232628046&sr=8-1). You shouldn't feel as though ceasing to speak with someone that you don't want in your life is "mean," nor should you feel pressured to "relent" and give information to people who make you uncomfortable.

I think The Gift of Fear should be required reading in high school -- it's that good, that valuable. It will help you to recognize warning signs of inappropriate behavior, so those alarm bells will go off earlier, and it will give you both the knowledge and the confidence to deal with that behavior. The chapters "Persistence, Persistence" and "'I Was Trying to Let Him Down Easy'" are probably going to be the most helpful for you right now, but I recommend reading the entire book.

In the meantime, cut off all communication with this guy. I don't mean tell him that you're going to stop talking to him and then, when he contacts you again, repeat that you're not going to talk to him... if you tell someone ten times that you're not going to talk to them, you're still talking to them nine times more than you need to. Don't fall into that trap. Let him know in no uncertain terms that you will no longer be communicating with him in any way, shape, or form; block him on AIM, FA, Concept Art, and anywhere else you can block him; and then, most importantly, stick to your guns. If he emails you, IGNORE IT. (But keep the email as a record.) You have the power in this situation: please use it to protect yourself.

[spiffystuff.livejournal.com]

hell yes, awesome book!

[dookiedragon.livejournal.com]

This man sounds like a predator to me.
Don't fall into his trap. Don't accept any more money from him. Save all the messages he sent you, and finally, just block his ass.

[madhentairabbit.livejournal.com]

Uhh-huh. Yeah, this was about the point where I really couldn't give the guy the benefit of a doubt anymore either. Up to this point, it was at least possible that the guy was just another socially-inept geek who doesn't quite grasp how to interact normally with other human beings (there's definitely no shortage of those types in Fandom!), doesn't quite "get" the whole idea of personal space (no shortage of those, either), and/or thinks that everyone in the fandom is automatically their friend just because they share a common interest (definitely no shortage of those! :D )

But unsolicited gifts, food stamps, and trying to pry your home address out of you? Yyyyyyyeah... that can only be categorized as Deeply Weird.

However, even leaving the creepy-weirdo factor out of it, and looking at it from a strictly business standpoint: personally, I would say you're entitled to keep the $110 at this point. Not only has he repeatedly failed to tell you what he actually wants in order for you to complete the commission, but he's wasted several months of your time and actively refused any attempt on your part to return his down payment. Also, if you're one of those artists who only keeps a certain fixed number of commission "slots" open at any given time, then he's interfered with your ability to take on other paying work while he's been occupying two commission slots he has no apparent intention of actually using.

That being said, I can see how keeping it might make you feel personally uncomfortable, just knowing it was there at all. In which case, what I would suggest is this: Get the money in the form of a bank cashier's cheque or a USPS money order. Mail it to him via registered mail, with signature confirmation required for delivery. (You may even want to go so far as to get a return receipt; they have an electronic option now that will e-mail the receipt as a PDF file, so you wouldn't have to expose your return mailing address.) Include with the money a letter stating in no uncertain terms (a) exactly why the money is being returned, (b) that the return of his money consistutes termination of your business relationship, and that (c) you do not wish to have any further contact from him on any level, personally or professionally, and that any attempt on his part to do so will be immediately forwarded to the appropriate authorities.

[empressamihisss.livejournal.com]

*Nods* Thank you for the advice. <3 (Rofl, oh boy, don't I know that... Geeks/Batshit Furries/people who can't grasp personal space.. I've dealt with them ALL.)

I actually used his money to pay for my new laptop.. :/ And quite honestly, by this point, if it were a bit earlier in our transaction; I would've forcefully returned the money, but I'm not even going to bother with a refund.

I offered one several times, and he refused, and wasted my time. I believe I'm entitled to that wasted time, in the form of currency he refused several times over.

[captpackrat.livejournal.com]

I pretty much agree with everything everyone else has been saying, save the log files, keep your parents apprised of the situation, etc.

I should point out, however, that as a minor, you cannot legally enter into a contract. In the future, you should perhaps have your parents handle the actual commission contract, at least until you turn 18. Also, PayPal's User Agreement requires you to be at least 18, so I hope that account is your parent's.

[empressamihisss.livejournal.com]

Yes, it's my mothers account.

[delphinios.livejournal.com]

I agree with just about everything that's been said here.

Moreso, you're a good artist - you do not have to worry about finding others to commission you. There are many, many other customers out there that aren't stalkerish creepy. This guy sounds like too much of a risk to do business with (and I don't mean financially).

If he's refused a refund, then you are no longer obligated to complete his work. Keep the hundred bucks - BUT (and some supercreeps try to do this) if he tries sending you any money from this point on, (via paypal or any other means) refuse to accept the transaction if possible, or immediately send it back if you cannot.

Rule #1 with stalker creeps: Block, block, block - don't talk. Don't let him manipulate his way back into communicating with you again. He's bad peoples.

Good luck on your budding career!

[empressamihisss.livejournal.com]

Hey, thank you. :3 I take it you've seen my FA page? (Pfft. I'm mediocre at best!) Yeah; he's been blocked, and if by some miricale the 400 shows up, I will be refunding it effective immediately and, if I can on paypal, blocking him from sending money into my mothers account.