(no subject)

[tornaderman.livejournal.com]

Artists Account: http://www.furaffinity.net/user/spookaboo/

Back in December of 2008, I had a trade with Kaku/Spookaboo. He wanted toys and gifts for Christmas time, and in exchange I was to get some art from him. The deal was for me to get an icon, two digital pieces (one flat colours, one fully coloured), a watercolour piece, and three keychains in exchange for some anime toys, books and goods. I cannot recall what all I sent; however, I do remember some manga, a large plush, doujinshi, and an older iPod that was used and had a pretty short battery. He was okay with this; I let him know the condition before sending it. I even sent a link to a place where the battery could get replaced for fairly cheap. He was offering Holiday bundles of art, and I think we did a kind of custom one equal to what I was sending. Again, not exactly sure since it's been so long.
(http://pics.livejournal.com/tornaderman/pic/0001y1g0/ Journal with the holiday bundle art packages.)

Sadly, my old Livejournal name where the notes on the trade took place has been deleted, so I do not have that as proof; however I do have the beginning of our transaction in this journal:
http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/549296/ (screencaps: http://pics.livejournal.com/tornaderman/pic/0001x9gx)

Not too long after I did receive my icon. However, after that, things started to get a little rough.


I didn't message him again for a while because I didn't want to be annoying or anything like that. I wanted to give him plenty of time to work. I did poke him a few times, but again, I don't have those notes any longer. In April 2009 I got the second piece due, a full coloured and shaded digital piece.

Again, I gave him time to work, messaging every few months probably. I try not to message too often because I don't want to come off as rude or obnoxious. He still took quite a few other commissions, and gift arts, doodles, but I just waited.

Sometime later Kaku did become ill, and I understand how that can effect someone's work, so I tried not to bother him too much at all during this time until he was doing a little better. I had a relative who went through cancer and chemo treatments, so I know it can be really hard, so of course I don't expect him to work when he's doing poorly. When his art did pick up some, I messaged him again about the commissions he owed. He said he forgot about them; eh, that's kind of rude but understandable. Now that he knows, maybe he can work more when he's feeling better.

May, 2010, he posted journals on FurAffinity about people who he still owed commissions to, and I left a comment letting him know I was still waiting. I wanted to ask him if I could change one of my keychains to an icon that he was taking commissions for.
( http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/1413047/ screenshot: http://pics.livejournal.com/manage/pic?id=55 ) Sometime before this I got the second digital piece, I just can't remember exactly when. It's not in his gallery and I can't find it in his journal anymore.

I let him know that he still owed me three keychains and a watercolour, but I would be okay with swapping those for something else like icons. He said an icon would be okay for one of the keychains. I asked what else he was up for doing/what I could swap the rest with, but I had no reply.

He did a lot of the popsicle icons, but took yet another break. He had some chemo. Okay, that's fine. I'll just wait a bit longer. I only messaged him when he seemed to be doing well or asked in a journal. We're friends on facebook, and I hadn't noticed anything about chemo treatments lately, on top of posting art and some costume photos. I thought I'd message him again yesterday. At this point I am getting pretty frustrated since I've been waiting quite a long time. I feel like I'm just being ignored. It's coming up on three years and I've gotten three out of seven pieces, while he's had all the traded items in possession since 2008.

Here's the exchange of notes since yesterday. I have them all put together here, but I've also put them up individually here if you'd like to see them that way: http://pics.livejournal.com/tornaderman/gallery/00008qrq




I'm not sure what else to do at this point. I've been polite and patient up until now. I admitted and apologized to him for sounding mean or rude, but I'm really not sure what else to do and I've lost my patience. I feel like I should be refunded for the work I never got, since I can't get the items back since he gave them away as gifts.

Am I being unreasonable? Am I wrong here? I know he's sick, I totally understand that, but if you have time for doodling, you have time to work on commissions, I think. Especially after this long of a wait. Previously I've asked him what I could exchange the key chains and watercolour for but he never replied. I feel that even if I tell him what else I'd like, I would just be waiting even longer.

I feel terrible having to post him here, especially since we were friends, but, at this point I feel I have no choice. Should I possibly ask for art instead of a refund? Am I asking for too much?

Comments

[ichigoneko33.livejournal.com]

Hmm, I'm honestly not sure what to do about the situation, so I'll wait for others to give their opinions.

Though, one thing. If he's been doing full pieces for fun instead of your commissions, then yes, that's not right. But if he's only doodling, I'd personally consider that ok. I mean, when I get sick, I don't feel well enough to work hard on a commission I'm paid to do, but I pretty much HAVE to draw to keep me occupied, so I doodle.

I mean this in general, not your situation in particular. It being so long can change what's considered ok or not

[tornaderman.livejournal.com]

Well today he's posted quite a few owed commissions, and to be honest his doodles look like finished pieces to me, but maybe that's just me. I just really don't know how I feel about that. :c

[ichigoneko33.livejournal.com]

Let's hope that's a good thing! Maybe they're getting back in gear and getting stuff done.

It's possible it is just you, since when I look at artist's I admire, it doesn't look like doodles to me either, and my doodles don't look like it to people who watch me. But in reality, there's tons less effort going into it.

I can understand feeling a put off by it. I have before too, it really depends on the situation and time that's passing by. I'm just letting you know to not worry if an artist takes breaks and doodles, when you haven't been waiting long :3

[tornaderman.livejournal.com]

Normally I totally understand, I like doodling inbetween commissions myself. It's just the waiting I've had to do mixed in with him taking more and more commissions and tons of other pics, and me still just waiting.

[ichigoneko33.livejournal.com]

Yes, it's not too good he's taking in more stuff while you've been waiting so long. Hopefully things work out.

[uozlulu.livejournal.com]

Part of your problem here is the lack of evidence and remembering what exactly you sent. I don't think you're being unreasonable, if what you remember is what you gave him then it sounds like a somewhat fair trade off.

I don't know if you can expect monetary reimbursement since you can't remember exactly the contents of the package.

I'm not completely sure what you can do in this situation especially with the missing evidence, but I wanted to say that I think you aren't being unreasonable in your demands.

[tornaderman.livejournal.com]

yes, it is kind of my fault due to the lack of evidence. I checked in photobucket too where I hosted the photos, but the only ones left are ones I never sold. I didn't think to keep a log since I had no idea it would be three years. :c
I suppose I'll just have to call it a loss, as unfair as that is.

[lilenth.livejournal.com]

Unfortunately as much as you are in the right in this case since an agreed upon contract has not been fulfilled, an agreed upon trade should be fulfilled after all, there's not a lot you can do legally realistically, you don't have any proof of what goods were traded, this really isn't a case one could take to small claims and short of that you probably have little legal recourse.

Just a question but have you actually told them what you wanted for the remaining pieces? Their comments seem to suggest you haven't.

I can sympathize that they've been sick but in terms of business transactions? That isn't your problem, that's theirs and they shouldn't use it as an excuse. (Being sick sucks I know personally since I'm having those sorts of problems currently) So I do think they need to stop relying on the fact that you're a friend to guarantee your patience and start treating you like a client, the only difference between a trade and a commission is that one involves money and the other involves a barter system, they are both still valuable items being exchanged.

[tornaderman.livejournal.com]

I know there's not much I can do about it :c

I mentioned before that I asked him numerous times what would be an equal trade, such as trading the watercolour for a digital bust, or a full body digital piece, but I was never given any info, and I didn't want to ask for too much. So no, I never did. I wanted to though.

Just during this exchange he did but I was quite frustrated and would have rather worked out a refund of some sort.
I feel that regardless I'll be waiting for nothing again, but I guess I could try if he's not too angry with me at this point.

I do understand the sickness, but after this long and with all these other works posted I feel like I'm just being ignored.

[lilenth.livejournal.com]

What about the icon? Since that was settled as a replacement for one of the keychains, have you told him what you wanted for that?

[tornaderman.livejournal.com]

Oh, yes, I did give him that one. He was offering popsicle icons, and I gave him that information, but got nothing from it yet. He was offering those quite a few months ago.

[lilenth.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry you're having such problems with this artist. I'd suggest writing him to explain that since he has discontinued certain of the agreed upon items and not completed the outstanding ones, that you expect him to offer currently available types of art of the same worth for your consideration and to set a firm deadline for completions.

Don't let him guilt trip you, being sympathetic to someone for being ill is not a license for him to abuse that sympathy. Many people with serious illness still carry out obligations that they have agreed to, he has to learn that being sick is not a license to ignore ones obligations.

He has been given your half of the trade, he has failed to uphold his end of the trade, at the end of the day if anyone feels guilty it should be him for failing to follow through on agreements.

[claytronic.livejournal.com]

Don't let him guilt trip you, being sympathetic to someone for being ill is not a license for him to abuse that sympathy.
I agree, but chemo is really fucking tough. My mom went through it, she was sleep for like 90% of the day, only awake to eat and go to the bathroom/shower. Hair falls out and you look really sick and everything. It's very sad. Not that it excuses him to take 3 years to repay art to someone.

[lilenth.livejournal.com]

Chemo isn't the only thing that causes those sorts of symptoms. At least with Chemo it ends one way or another eventually, nobody spends their life on it, there are conditions that cause those symptoms which aren't fatal so someone can suffer for decades.

[claytronic.livejournal.com]

Yeah I know, but I'm talking about Kaku and my mom going through chemo. Kaku might be having those symptoms due to chemo IRL, we don't know that but if he is, I know what it's like [not personally but.. my mom had it]

[sirdrhorrible.livejournal.com]

Aw, thanks, Clay. I try to keep all my journals and health updates positive and on the bright side. I suppose I just hope to inspire those in their own down-times whether it be physical health or emotional. I will not deny that I have had some pretty awful side effects from chemotherapy, as you listed like fatigue, excessive nausea, on and off hair loss and I know I sleep more than the regular-joe, now. I guess I just still try to continue my art to keep my own spirits high and maybe even others.

I will agree, my illness alone can't excuse all the delays, but those who know me personally know that these past three years, right when delays began, my life was taking hit-after-hit, cancer is just the tail end year and a half.

Like my icon references: Like pie... my artist face has a layer that's just a nice guy trying hard to keep up and keep people happy, then the second layer where people disregard the real life, long lasting issues an artist can have then they begin to think you're a bad guy, then there's that third layer that was just the same as the first after people finally calm down.

[claytronic.livejournal.com]

It really is inspirational to hear that. I know I wouldn't be able to look on the bright side and be positive if I was goin' through that stuff. Just keep doin what you're doin man and I hope things work out for you

[sirdrhorrible.livejournal.com]

Thank you so very much, fella! I'll definitely take your good wishes to heart and I'm glad to hear that my attitude towards all of this can have a positive effect on others. That really made my day!

[lilenth.livejournal.com]

"then the second layer where people disregard the real life, long lasting issues an artist can have then they begin to think you're a bad guy"

With all due respect, nobody has said you are a bad guy, however your medical problems which did not cover the entire period of the other parties waiting are not the other parties fault.

Many people in general do struggle with major issues, being ill is not an uncommon issue for many people, yet some of them still manage to complete their obligations.

You are not owed sympathy and patience simply because you've fell sick in the last year and a half with a fairly serious illness.

[sirdrhorrible.livejournal.com]

Of course, I never ask folks for pity but when dealing with some people I think are friends I just let them know what's going on in my life. I just assume it's what most people do with friends. I just let most know I'm having some down time and slowly but surely have been completing art.

I just ask for people to cooperate with me. I do try my best to keep others happy with polite replies and all attempts to please their need. As with this, I was finally informed of what she specifically wanted for her pieces and I got to work toot sweet. Heck, I would still like to consider her a friend, too. I'm sure she felt this was the right thing to do, I respect that, I know she's been going through a lot of stress in her own real life other than owed pieces of art. To each their own, I'm alright with this. I never claim to be a professional, I'll just keep doing what I can.

[tornaderman.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I had a relative who went through chemo. Sadly he was too far along and the chemo was too much on him and I lost him. So I definitely know what chemo can be like on a person. I never asked about art or pestered or anything when I knew he had to go to chemo or anything like that. :c That would be awful.

Still, he wasn't sick when we first started the transaction, and probably could have finished it before that but kept taking in other commissions. it's alright though, not much to do about it now.

[sirdrhorrible.livejournal.com]

Oh wow, Spookaboo here. I had no idea she'd actually post on AB before I even got back to her last note so we could further discuss what I could do for her art. I was busy completing other older commissions that I actually had been told what to do, took a nap then saw this after I just got back to her.

Welp, I replied to her with the estimate value of the items (in their condition at the time) that were traded and the value of the completed pieces I had already done. I never planned on denying her any art, if not only gave her more options for higher quality and value pieces so I could work with her and finally complete this transaction.

Oh well, hopefully it'll turn out for the best. Just trying to do what I can.

[bladespark.livejournal.com]

From my point of view... your messages make it clear you're not happy, but they don't give any indication of what you actually want. How is the artist supposed to make you happy if you don't tell them what to draw?

The very first message from this artist is asking what you want, and you never give them a concrete answer, just a lot of waffling about. Tell them what you want. If they think that's unfair they can let you know.

[tornaderman.livejournal.com]

Well like I said, he was no longer offering keychains and watercolours. He had that info, but when I asked what he would be willing to change those into [like icons, etc] he never responded, so I really didn't know what to ask for, and I didn't want to ask for too much. I would have gladly told him if he would have said 'oh well you can change that for this!'

I did actually ask if I could change a keychain into an icon, and he agreed. I gave him that information and got nothing from it. No icon or any info of what I should change the remaining pieces out for.

[bladespark.livejournal.com]

o I really didn't know what to ask for, and I didn't want to ask for too much. I would have gladly told him if he would have said 'oh well you can change that for this!'

I don't think you get to have it both ways. You don't get to make the artist happy by not asking for "too much" and still say that the artist is wronging you by not doing what you want, when you haven't concretely asked for anything.

Just say "I want X, Y, and Z, I would like them done by X date, let me know if that's too much." And then it's in the artist's hands, but right now you're both dragging this out far longer than it needs to be, and while in an ideal world the artist would be completely on the ball and take charge and get everything done, this is not an ideal world.

You'll either get your art, or have a situation where you genuinely have a complaint, if you quit trying to waltz around the issue without touching it, and just tell them what you want drawn.

[tornaderman.livejournal.com]

Well like I said, I did ask for one keychain to be an icon but I never got that. The rest I asked about and just waited for a reply. I didn't really want to ask for a full pic for a keychain, that's not fair. I wanted to see what he would be okay with doing. It was just him not getting back to me preventing me from telling him what I would change. I mean, he had info for the keychains and watercolour, he could have used those characters anyway.

I dunno, I guess I'm wrong.